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View Full Version : This loss is on Dusty ...



mu4103
05-30-2012, 11:27 PM
5/30/12
You win a third of your games, you lose a third of your games, it is the other third ...

I don't like Dusty as a manager ... I will preface that before everyone cites the team's record and so on. But I disagree, fundamentally with Dusty's managing tonight primarily with sitting Joey Votto.

You can look at the overload of consecutive righties. You can also look at the Pirates as a divisional opponent.

I have a problem with sitting Joey Votto tonight especially with Cueto pitching. I have no problem with the two consecutive days rest. I think mentally it won't feel like that much of a rest because he had to come in with the game on the line anyway. I also disagree with using him as a PHer over Frazier instead of Miggy.

But my main issue and reason I think it is Baker's fault we lost the game tonight is this:

When your best pitcher, especially a young developing pitcher, is on the mound you want to have your best team out there. I think Dusty thinks it is a good time to give Votto a break because you have your best pitcher out there and a good shot at a win. I disagree with this philosophy fundamentally. When your best pitcher is out there you want your best offense to support him.

1. Looking at the game in hindsight chances are the Reds would have won with Votto.

2. When you have your best pitcher out there against an average team with an average pitcher you are facing - you need to make sure you get that win.

3. When you put Cueto in that situation he might feel like he has to pitch perfect to overcome his best hitter not being in the line-up. Give him your best line-up and it allows him to ease his mind and pitch more at ease. Seasons are long for pitchers too. When you have to go out and pitch great every game it can wear your pitcher out.

4. In terms of wins and losses - try to make sure that your Ace is getting every opportunity to get a win. He is the one who needs the confidence when it comes to the postseason. Nothing is worse than seeing a guy with a 2.10 ERA have a record of 11-10.

5. Give Joey V. a rest on a day that the Reds are pitching their worst pitcher.

All in all I thought tonight's loss ultimately came down to Joey V. not being in the game. Managers aren't perfect and they have to make decisions, but I think tonight's decision to rest Votto against a division opponent with your Ace on the hill was a managerial flaw. And we lost the game not because of a mistake (there were many reasons that the Reds did not win the game) or a bad in game decision, I think we lost the game because a fundamental flaw in managing.

mu4103
05-30-2012, 11:35 PM
I am aware that I appear to be drunk and mentally handicapped in my wording and writing above. Unfortunately, I am not the former and only partially of the latter. :)

Maker_84
05-30-2012, 11:39 PM
the Reds will sometime again win a World Series, but it wont be with dusty baker as manager. He better be gone after this season or we can expect more failure

Stray
05-30-2012, 11:42 PM
Votto almost never gets a day off. The decision to sit him today wasn't just Dusty's, it was also Votto's since they discussed when would be the best time for him. He hits like .400 in Houston so to connect it to an off day it made sense for it to be tonight. You'd like to think Cueto vs. Burnett is a clear advantage to us with or without Votto, it just wasn't tonight.

He can't play every day of his career tho we want him to, obviously whenever he sits it's gonna hurt. It's still gonna happen tho...

Ironman92
05-30-2012, 11:57 PM
If he hits .400 in Houston that would rejuvenate him anyways.

Votto has the wiring to play every day....he gets crabby but he focuses well during those times.

Now Stubbs getting 44/45 starts....that bothers me a little

Stray
05-31-2012, 12:03 AM
If he hits .400 in Houston that would rejuvenate him anyways.

Votto has the wiring to play every day....he gets crabby but he focuses well during those times.

Now Stubbs getting 44/45 starts....that bothers me a little

Throughout the course of a season Votto may get 2 or 3 games off. Dusty also gets Votto's input on when those games will be, if he thinks it's time to take one then I say we find a way to win without him. It does not happen often.

mikemo14
05-31-2012, 12:10 AM
With the very weak bench they have, when one guy sits the lineup goes to crap. It seems like far too many times Dusty is willing to pencil in pathetic lineups in order to rest 25-30 year old players. In my opinion every single game is crucial but he doesnt seem to manage that way.

Stray
05-31-2012, 12:13 AM
With the very weak bench they have, when one guy sits the lineup goes to crap. It seems like far too many times Dusty is willing to pencil in pathetic lineups in order to rest 25-30 year old players. In my opinion every single game is crucial but he doesnt seem to manage that way.

That's a bench problem, not a Dusty problem. You cannot hide guys on your bench or in your bullpen, that's an easy way to wear your team out and/or get guys hurt. If they're up here they have to be able to play. Unfortunately we have a few who aren't very good.

R_Webb18
05-31-2012, 12:19 AM
That's a bench problem, not a Dusty problem. You cannot hide guys on your bench or in your bullpen, that's an easy way to wear your team out and/or get guys hurt. If they're up here they have to be able to play. Unfortunately we have a few who aren't very good.

this

we had chance after chance. i had no problem with votto getting a day off.

he batted in the 9th and guess what? we still had a chance

RedsFanInBama
05-31-2012, 02:07 AM
I didn't have a problem with him sitting before the game and I don't have a problem with him having sat after losing the game.

brm7675
05-31-2012, 07:18 AM
Here's an idea maybe our "ace" should have pitched like an one and we would have won...

Red Raindog
05-31-2012, 07:27 AM
Here's an idea maybe our "ace" should have pitched like an one and we would have won...

or the offense just might have given him some support.

TSJ55
05-31-2012, 07:27 AM
Here's an idea maybe our "ace" should have pitched like an one and we would have won...

*5 hits, 2 runs (both earned), in 7 innings? He walked more than his usual but it wasn't a bad outing.

*Votto wanted the day off and the bench couldn't step up.

*Burnett has been throwing well aside from one terrible outing.

It's a loss that stings, especially since it was a division series loss, but come on. You can't pin it on J.C. when the Reds only managed 4 hits.

Assembly Hall
05-31-2012, 07:38 AM
I have no problem with Votto getting the night off myself. I think it more appropriate when the "ace" is on the mound. However, it aint like Burnett was pitching his first major league game. The guy can pitch. Rubber game of a three game series against a division opponent, an off day on Thursday, a three game series against another division opponent on the road where Joey hits extremely well, and an off day on Monday. I question the timing of it.

Moosie52
05-31-2012, 07:45 AM
Costanzo isn't up to playing first in the big leagues.

dubc47834
05-31-2012, 07:59 AM
5/30/12
You win a third of your games, you lose a third of your games, it is the other third ...

I don't like Dusty as a manager ... I will preface that before everyone cites the team's record and so on. But I disagree, fundamentally with Dusty's managing tonight primarily with sitting Joey Votto.

You can look at the overload of consecutive righties. You can also look at the Pirates as a divisional opponent.

I have a problem with sitting Joey Votto tonight especially with Cueto pitching. I have no problem with the two consecutive days rest. I think mentally it won't feel like that much of a rest because he had to come in with the game on the line anyway. I also disagree with using him as a PHer over Frazier instead of Miggy.

But my main issue and reason I think it is Baker's fault we lost the game tonight is this:

When your best pitcher, especially a young developing pitcher, is on the mound you want to have your best team out there. I think Dusty thinks it is a good time to give Votto a break because you have your best pitcher out there and a good shot at a win. I disagree with this philosophy fundamentally. When your best pitcher is out there you want your best offense to support him.

1. Looking at the game in hindsight chances are the Reds would have won with Votto.

2. When you have your best pitcher out there against an average team with an average pitcher you are facing - you need to make sure you get that win.

3. When you put Cueto in that situation he might feel like he has to pitch perfect to overcome his best hitter not being in the line-up. Give him your best line-up and it allows him to ease his mind and pitch more at ease. Seasons are long for pitchers too. When you have to go out and pitch great every game it can wear your pitcher out.

4. In terms of wins and losses - try to make sure that your Ace is getting every opportunity to get a win. He is the one who needs the confidence when it comes to the postseason. Nothing is worse than seeing a guy with a 2.10 ERA have a record of 11-10.

5. Give Joey V. a rest on a day that the Reds are pitching their worst pitcher.

All in all I thought tonight's loss ultimately came down to Joey V. not being in the game. Managers aren't perfect and they have to make decisions, but I think tonight's decision to rest Votto against a division opponent with your Ace on the hill was a managerial flaw. And we lost the game not because of a mistake (there were many reasons that the Reds did not win the game) or a bad in game decision, I think we lost the game because a fundamental flaw in managing.

So let me get this straight....you want to set your best player on a night your worst pitcher is starting and not give him a day off when your best pitcher is starting. I don't get that, I would think that since your best starter would probly need less runs to get a win that would be the day to give him off. Not the day when you will probly need more runs.

:bang:

brm7675
05-31-2012, 09:00 AM
or the offense just might have given him some support.

They gave him a run...ace pitchers shouldn't need more...

brm7675
05-31-2012, 09:01 AM
*5 hits, 2 runs (both earned), in 7 innings? He walked more than his usual but it wasn't a bad outing.

*Votto wanted the day off and the bench couldn't step up.

*Burnett has been throwing well aside from one terrible outing.

It's a loss that stings, especially since it was a division series loss, but come on. You can't pin it on J.C. when the Reds only managed 4 hits.

Not a bad start...but not good enough...

texasdave
05-31-2012, 09:14 AM
So let me get this straight....you want to set your best player on a night your worst pitcher is starting and not give him a day off when your best pitcher is starting. I don't get that, I would think that since your best starter would probly need less runs to get a win that would be the day to give him off. Not the day when you will probly need more runs.

:bang:

Who the Reds had going was only half of the equation. You had to look at who the Pirates were throwing out there. Burnett has been lights out in all his starts except one. You would have to figure the Reds were going to have trouble scoring. And they did.

TSJ55
05-31-2012, 09:22 AM
They gave him a run...ace pitchers shouldn't need more...

By that definition, less than 1/2% of all pitchers in the league are true aces.

jaydeebee21
05-31-2012, 09:57 AM
They gave him a run...ace pitchers shouldn't need more...

please tell me your being sarcastic.

please show me these ace pitchers who have an era of 0.

his outing last night had an era of 2.57, most starting pitchers with a season long era with that are considered aces.

His season era is 2.54.

dubc47834
05-31-2012, 10:01 AM
They gave him a run...ace pitchers shouldn't need more...

You're kidding......right?

dubc47834
05-31-2012, 10:05 AM
Who the Reds had going was only half of the equation. You had to look at who the Pirates were throwing out there. Burnett has been lights out in all his starts except one. You would have to figure the Reds were going to have trouble scoring. And they did.

I understand what you're saying...I just don't have a problem with giving him the day off. It's not like the old days where players play every game. Plus unless Votto gets hurt, there will probly only be another 2 or 3 of these where he takes a game off.

MrRedLegger
05-31-2012, 10:15 AM
http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2612167#post2612167

That is to last night's game thread. Before the loss, there was an air of agreement and satisfaction giving Votto the night off, allowing him two days rest.

It seems as though the Sun Deck his host to quite a few cake-havers-and-eaters.

It made complete sense to rest Votto. Here's why:

1. Cueto is pitching. He is our best pitcher. He does not need much run support in order to win the game. 3 or 4 runs usually gets you the W with Cueto. Before last night he has lost to the Pirates just once in his career.

2. Over the last two weeks, the team has won series against the Yankees, Braves, and Rockies. Everyone, including the Pirates, assumed the Reds would win this series.

3. Just in the last week the entire team's bats were LIGHTS OUT. Frazier's walk off. Mes' grand slam (two homers last week). Cozart and Stubbs hitting each hitting 2 home runs in a game. 4 Home runs on Sunday (3 without Votto). Bruce with a home run on Sunday and going 3-4 on Tuesday, so it looks as though he is hitting consistently again. Why not put the well-hitting lefty in the #3 spot? This ballclub (minus Votto) has proven they can get runs on the board.

4. With the three reasons above, it is safe to assume that you can bench your best player and still pull off a win. So go ahead give him rest.

5. Joey Votto hasn't had a day off in months. He has certainly earned it.

This loss is tough to swallow, but sometimes these things happen. The Dodgers lost a series to the Cubs in early May and are about to get swept by the Brewers, and they have the best record in baseball. Possibly all of baseball nation overlooked this series. I know I did. It's safe to say that every game until the Cleveland series has been overlooked by a lot of people.

This loss was not on Dusty. This win was on the Pirates.

justincredible
05-31-2012, 10:37 AM
They gave him a run...ace pitchers shouldn't need more...

Yes, because every Ace has a 0.00 ERA. WTF? :confused:

read favorite
05-31-2012, 11:05 AM
dont answer that guy he thinks that scott rolen is still an all star

brm7675
05-31-2012, 11:07 AM
please tell me your being sarcastic.

please show me these ace pitchers who have an era of 0.

his outing last night had an era of 2.57, most starting pitchers with a season long era with that are considered aces.

His season era is 2.54.

He doesn't have to have a 0 era, what ACE pitchers do is pitch to the game they are in. If their teams score they pitch differently then they do when in a tight game. Cueto saw the Reds were not going to score much, so that means he has to step up his game and not give up those 2 runs and get the game to the bullpen which as we saw did their job. Johnny didn't get the job done last night when they needed him to shut down the Pirates.

GoReds19
05-31-2012, 11:55 AM
They gave him a run...ace pitchers shouldn't need more...
Your not gonna win many games that you only score one run. I dont care who is pitching.

krm1580
05-31-2012, 12:51 PM
Last night was a text book example of the 2 things killing this team.

1.) Guys don't get on base. The Reds are currently ranked 14th out of 16 in OB% at .306. If you pull Joey Votto out, they are dead last. You don't get guys on base, you are not going to score runs. To highlight how big a problem this is, Phillips has the second highest OBP of full time starters and he is .141 LOWER than Votto.


2.) Guys don't hit with RISP. On the rare occasion when the Reds get guys on base, they don't do anything with them. The Reds are ranked 14th out of 16 hitting with RISP at .215. The league average is .243. Again, JV .351, pull him out the Reds are 15th out of 16.


When Matt Kemp went down with an injury the Dodgers went 8-4 averaging nearly 6 runs per game. If Joey Votto goes down the Reds are a flat out disaster, incapable of scoring runs.

Don't get me wrong, Dusty does not help this team. His managing style exposes the flaws rather than mask them, but blaming him for this loss is ridiculous.

Krawhitham
05-31-2012, 12:52 PM
Joey needed a day off

brm7675
05-31-2012, 01:18 PM
Last night was a text book example of the 2 things killing this team.

1.) Guys don't get on base. The Reds are currently ranked 14th out of 16 in OB% at .306. If you pull Joey Votto out, they are dead last. You don't get guys on base, you are not going to score runs. To highlight how big a problem this is, Phillips has the second highest OBP of full time starters and he is .141 LOWER than Votto.


2.) Guys don't hit with RISP. On the rare occasion when the Reds get guys on base, they don't do anything with them. The Reds are ranked 14th out of 16 hitting with RISP at .215. The league average is .243. Again, JV .351, pull him out the Reds are 15th out of 16.


When Matt Kemp went down with an injury the Dodgers went 8-4 averaging nearly 6 runs per game. If Joey Votto goes down the Reds are a flat out disaster, incapable of scoring runs.

Don't get me wrong, Dusty does not help this team. His managing style exposes the flaws rather than mask them, but blaming him for this loss is ridiculous.


So how do you explain these numbers?

8
4
1
1.5

We have the 8th best record in baseball, 4th best in the NL, we are first in our division and have a 1.5 game lead...

Kingspoint
05-31-2012, 01:20 PM
Joey needed a day offTwo days in a row, apparently, because everyone has today off.

Todd Gack
05-31-2012, 01:34 PM
the Reds will sometime again win a World Series, but it wont be with dusty baker as manager. He better be gone after this season or we can expect more failure

If Bob Brenly can win a World Series, then so can Dusty.

Ironman92
05-31-2012, 01:56 PM
If Bob Brenly can win a World Series, then so can Dusty.

Bob Brenly did ridiculous stuff but he had Randy Johnson, Curt Schilling and Miguel Bautista was very good then as well. He also had steroidal Luis Gonzalez.....and had Torre not retardly brought the infield in.....Brenly may not had won.

The Reds don't have Johnson or Schilling....but we do have the Brenly

brm7675
05-31-2012, 02:01 PM
the Reds will sometime again win a World Series, but it wont be with dusty baker as manager. He better be gone after this season or we can expect more failure


How is first place, the 4th best record in the NL considered failing?

alett12
05-31-2012, 02:15 PM
It's stulid things like playing your guys that cost teams wins

Larkin88
05-31-2012, 02:37 PM
Cueto saw the Reds were not going to score much, so that means he has to step up his game and not give up those 2 runs and get the game to the bullpen which as we saw did their job. Johnny didn't get the job done last night when they needed him to shut down the Pirates.

What are you even talking about? Do you really believe that professional athletes, even the elite ones, can just flip a switch to become even more elite whenever they think their team needs them to? By that (lack of) logic, the hitters should have detected that Cueto was going to give up two runs and "stepped up their game" to score.

If this is truly your position, I'm not even going to bother arguing with you on this point any further. Trying to lay this at the feet of Cueto is absolutely asinine and foolish. Get some perspective.

Larkin88
05-31-2012, 02:40 PM
Two days in a row, apparently, because everyone has today off.

Do you really think giving him two days off in a row after he played in 170+ consecutive games since his last off day is egregious?

mivers176
05-31-2012, 02:56 PM
Last night was a text book example of the 2 things killing this team.

1.) Guys don't get on base. The Reds are currently ranked 14th out of 16 in OB% at .306. If you pull Joey Votto out, they are dead last. You don't get guys on base, you are not going to score runs. To highlight how big a problem this is, Phillips has the second highest OBP of full time starters and he is .141 LOWER than Votto.


2.) Guys don't hit with RISP. On the rare occasion when the Reds get guys on base, they don't do anything with them. The Reds are ranked 14th out of 16 hitting with RISP at .215. The league average is .243. Again, JV .351, pull him out the Reds are 15th out of 16.


When Matt Kemp went down with an injury the Dodgers went 8-4 averaging nearly 6 runs per game. If Joey Votto goes down the Reds are a flat out disaster, incapable of scoring runs.

Don't get me wrong, Dusty does not help this team. His managing style exposes the flaws rather than mask them, but blaming him for this loss is ridiculous.

Bingo. Great reply to this thread- at first, listening to Lance he made me agree that it was foolish to give JV a day off when you had one coming today and on Monday but the #s you point out are the real problem- which seem to be the same season after season ..

dubc47834
05-31-2012, 02:58 PM
What are you even talking about? Do you really believe that professional athletes, even the elite ones, can just flip a switch to become even more elite whenever they think their team needs them to? By that (lack of) logic, the hitters should have detected that Cueto was going to give up two runs and "stepped up their game" to score.

If this is truly your position, I'm not even going to bother arguing with you on this point any further. Trying to lay this at the feet of Cueto is absolutely asinine and foolish. Get some perspective.

Asinine...asiten...asieleven...asitwelve....LOL!!! !

:beerme:

krm1580
05-31-2012, 03:07 PM
So how do you explain these numbers?

8
4
1
1.5

We have the 8th best record in baseball, 4th best in the NL, we are first in our division and have a 1.5 game lead...

I will explain it by saying:

1.) The Reds have statisically the best bullpen in the league, which honestly does not do it justice because its the best by a significant margin.

2.) The Reds at the top of the league defensively

3.) The Reds starting pitching has been above average so far.

If all 3 of those things hold up, they might have enough to win the division. It does not change the fact that outside of Joey Votto there is not much in this lineup.

read favorite
05-31-2012, 03:08 PM
only brm thinks that cueto failed last night , by that definitiuon arroyo has never succeeded in his life

Ironman92
05-31-2012, 03:23 PM
only brm thinks that cueto failed last night , by that definitiuon arroyo has never succeeded in his life

Arroyo has 4 career shutouts

EMAW
05-31-2012, 03:31 PM
;) that's right haters keep on hating, team is in 1st place and the Baker Haters (not bashers) keep on hating

Kingspoint
05-31-2012, 03:55 PM
I will explain it by saying:

1.) The Reds have statisically the best bullpen in the league, which honestly does not do it justice because its the best by a significant margin.

2.) The Reds at the top of the league defensively

3.) The Reds starting pitching has been above average so far.

If all 3 of those things hold up, they might have enough to win the division. It does not change the fact that outside of Joey Votto there is not much in this lineup.While 1 and 2 are correct, number 3 is completely backwards. So far, their starting staff has produced, as a whole, results that place them in the bottom third of the National League. Which statistics do you want to use to show that they are above average in the National League (as the American League is irrelevant, as they don't throw to Pitchers, thus making National League staffs have better numbers as a whole).


If our current pitching staff's WAR is 9th in the National League ( http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=all&stats=pit&lg=nl&qual=0&type=8&season=2012&month=0&season1=2012&ind=0&team=0,ts&rost=0&age=0&players=0 ), and our Relief Pitching is the "best in the league", then how much worse must the Starting Pitching be for the entire staff to only be #9 out of 16?

Our BaBIP is 10th out of 16, and with our Relievers striking out so many of their opposing hitters, our starters are putting too much responsibility on the fielders. But, thankfully, as you point out, our fielders are "at the top of the league" defensively, thus saving our starters from doing as much damage as they should be doing.

Also, the teams' 10 come-from-behind wins where the starter was in position to take a loss when he faced his last batter leads the league in that category. Our ability to come up with late-inning runs and the relievers' abilities to hold the opposing team, has made our starters look better than they are.

Krawhitham
05-31-2012, 04:08 PM
I do not like Dusty, and I think he makes a lot of horrible choices

But I also think that is true for most fans and their team's manager

The Reds have slightly above average pitching
5th in ERA
12th QS
10th in WHIP
13th in BBA

They have horrible hitting
22nd in Runs
25th in AVG
26th in OBP
12th in SLG

And yet the are 6 games over .500 and in 1st place by 1.5 games. They are also 1 game above their ExWL

Dusty has to get some credit

krm1580
05-31-2012, 04:10 PM
While 1 and 2 are correct, number 3 is completely backwards. So far, their starting staff has produced, as a whole, results that place them in the bottom third of the National League. Which statistics do you want to use to show that they are above average in the National League (as the American League is irrelevant, as they don't throw to Pitchers, thus making National League staffs have better numbers as a whole).

I was going by the ESPN team pitching stats. I was looking at the wrong link though. I was looking at total pitching, which they are 5th, which is where I got the "above average" from.

Upon further review, if I go to "as starter' they are ranked 8th out of 16 with an ERA of 3.87, slightly better than the league average of 3.94.

Which stats were you using to show they are in the bottom third of the NL?

brm7675
05-31-2012, 04:17 PM
What are you even talking about? Do you really believe that professional athletes, even the elite ones, can just flip a switch to become even more elite whenever they think their team needs them to? By that (lack of) logic, the hitters should have detected that Cueto was going to give up two runs and "stepped up their game" to score.

If this is truly your position, I'm not even going to bother arguing with you on this point any further. Trying to lay this at the feet of Cueto is absolutely asinine and foolish. Get some perspective.


Great players get the job done. Period, end of discussion. Cueto had to know the Reds might not score again, thus he needed to make sure the Pirates didn't. Why is that so hard to grasp? Look around all sports, the great players make the plays when they need to. Was it totally Cueto's fault, no, but he had more control then anyone.

The Rage
05-31-2012, 04:22 PM
Burnett was falling behind all evening. Did the Reds work him out of the game that way?

Cueto wasn't Bailey great that night, but you gotta win that 7I 2R performance. The team acted like jerks the whole series and wasted at least 1 win.

brm7675
05-31-2012, 04:25 PM
Burnett was falling behind all evening. Did the Reds work him out of the game that way?

Cueto wasn't Bailey great that night, but you gotta win that 7I 2R performance. The team acted like jerks the whole series and wasted at least 1 win.


No question our offense was not there last night, and that falls on them.

EMAW
05-31-2012, 04:39 PM
Honestly believe a lot of folks:thumbdown: on this site would rather be in 4th place with someone else managing than in 1st with Dusty.

Ironman92
05-31-2012, 04:50 PM
This thread has to stop. Geesh.....it's over. Had Votto played all game and hit 2 HR and Dusty PH for him with bases loaded in the 9th.....yeah, way more blame.....We sucked and Votto came up with a chance in the 9th.

Larkin88
05-31-2012, 04:52 PM
Great players get the job done. Period, end of discussion. Cueto had to know the Reds might not score again, thus he needed to make sure the Pirates didn't. Why is that so hard to grasp? Look around all sports, the great players make the plays when they need to. Was it totally Cueto's fault, no, but he had more control then anyone.

So now Cueto has a crystal ball to know whether the Reds will score or not and a switch that he can flip, really whenever he wants, to catapult his stellar performance to yet an even higher level. Got it.

Votto didn't hit a homerun when he knew the Reds were down a run in the ninth. He didn't make a play when he needed to, thus not a great player. Got it.

texasdave
05-31-2012, 04:55 PM
The great pitchers all win 30 games a year. Didn't you know that? They just sense how many runs they can afford to give up and stop the opposition right there. That is so easy to see. How do people miss that?

MrRedLegger
05-31-2012, 05:14 PM
While 1 and 2 are correct, number 3 is completely backwards. So far, their starting staff has produced, as a whole, results that place them in the bottom third of the National League. Which statistics do you want to use to show that they are above average in the National League (as the American League is irrelevant, as they don't throw to Pitchers, thus making National League staffs have better numbers as a whole).

Reds Starting Pitching
YTD ERA: 3.87, 8th in NL
NL AVG: 3.94

Reds Relief Pitching
YTD ERA: 2.39, 1st in NL
2nd: 2.72 Pirates
3rd: 3.13 Giants
NL AVG: 3.75

Team
YTD ERA: 3.40, 5th in NL
NL AVG: 3.86

Reds are 3rd in Fielding Percentage. What krm said was pretty much spot on.

DocRed
05-31-2012, 06:53 PM
Duhhsty pinch running Cairo for Costanzo was pure genius though...

Todd Gack
05-31-2012, 07:29 PM
Bob Brenly did ridiculous stuff but he had Randy Johnson, Curt Schilling and Miguel Bautista was very good then as well. He also had steroidal Luis Gonzalez.....and had Torre not retardly brought the infield in.....Brenly may not had won.

The Reds don't have Johnson or Schilling....but we do have the Brenly

I'm just curious as to what manager would satisfy this fan base. I'm not sure of one manager in the league who would.

Ironman92
05-31-2012, 07:47 PM
I'm just curious as to what manager would satisfy this fan base. I'm not sure of one manager in the league who would.

I was happy with Lou, Davey and Jack....Narron and Bob Boone were the worst. Miley....McKanin sp....Dusty, Knight.....meh. Pete seemed pretty good, but I was pretty young.

Still bitter about what they did to Oester before settling with Boone....which IMO led to a lot of this.

redram
05-31-2012, 07:50 PM
How come we never see a This WINS on DUSTY thread. We are in First chill out and enjoy it.

The Rage
05-31-2012, 08:18 PM
Mike Leake is the one holding the Reds starting pitching back. If he would get it together, they would be definitely above average.

But the offense simply has to do a better job outside GAB.

EMAW
05-31-2012, 09:21 PM
How come we never see a This WINS on DUSTY thread. We are in First chill out and enjoy it.

Constant Baker Haters= Baseball Tards

Ironman92
05-31-2012, 09:55 PM
Constant Baker Haters= Baseball Tards

Dusty Baker.....19 seasons

0 World Series Championships (these are tough and I'm ok with it even though he blew it in 2002)

17 postseason wins.....

Lost the world series up 3-2 with a 5 run lead going to the bottom of the 7th....takes out the starter and brings in Felix Hernandez and Tim Worrell....those two combined to pitch in 9 games in the first 5 games of the series....and they both surprisingly struggle (Hernandez pitched in games 1-6 and Worrell pitched in 5 of them)

Had a 3-2 series lead in NLCS with a 3-0 lead at home going to the top of the 8th and Bartman takes over and no one can do anything and 8 runs score...they lose both game 7's.

1993
1994
1995
1996
1997
1998
1999
2001
2004
2005
2006
2008
2009
2010
2011

Zero playoff wins

markymark69
05-31-2012, 09:56 PM
this

we had chance after chance. i had no problem with votto getting a day off.

he batted in the 9th and guess what? we still had a chance

I think this is a more accurate assessment of the game. How many games this season have they've lost because they only scored one run (games in which Votto played in).

I love how the majority of people on this board never hold the players accountable.

mu4103
05-31-2012, 10:05 PM
Constant Baker Haters= Baseball Tards

Well I am glad to see I gave evrybody something to do on the Reds off day. Two fatal flaws in last nights game. Again, take the easy win ... I've read some of your posts and their are good points. But:

1. I don't like taking Votto out on a day Cueto is starting.

2. It did turn out to in fact be a 1 run game. So say what you want, but it was (past tense) not a good day to give Votto a break. Dusty made that decision and I believe it turned out to be a bad one ... just by the nature of how it played out. If the Reds won 7-1 we should have all given Dusty a compliment for finding a good day to rest Votto. That is why I like to rest players when your worst pitcher is pitching because then it is a crap shoot either way before the game starts.

3. I think the call to hit Votto for Frazier was a bad one.

The bottom line for me is that if Joey V. is in this game, then I think the Reds win. Dusty (and Joey maybe as well) made the decision to sit him yesterday. Whether or not it was a bad decision can be argued. Maybe the Reds win a couple over the weekend that they wouldn't have won with a tired Joey V. But yesterday Votto was not in the game and the Reds lost. If he was in there I think they would have won. In my mind that is the defining moment of the game. That is why I blame this loss on Dusty.

I will likely not give him credit if he decides to start Ludwick tomorrow and Ludwick goes 3-5 with a homer. I will call it dumb luck. :)

brm7675
05-31-2012, 11:06 PM
Well I am glad to see I gave evrybody something to do on the Reds off day. Two fatal flaws in last nights game. Again, take the easy win ... I've read some of your posts and their are good points. But:

1. I don't like taking Votto out on a day Cueto is starting.

2. It did turn out to in fact be a 1 run game. So say what you want, but it was (past tense) not a good day to give Votto a break. Dusty made that decision and I believe it turned out to be a bad one ... just by the nature of how it played out. If the Reds won 7-1 we should have all given Dusty a compliment for finding a good day to rest Votto. That is why I like to rest players when your worst pitcher is pitching because then it is a crap shoot either way before the game starts.

3. I think the call to hit Votto for Frazier was a bad one.

The bottom line for me is that if Joey V. is in this game, then I think the Reds win. Dusty (and Joey maybe as well) made the decision to sit him yesterday. Whether or not it was a bad decision can be argued. Maybe the Reds win a couple over the weekend that they wouldn't have won with a tired Joey V. But yesterday Votto was not in the game and the Reds lost. If he was in there I think they would have won. In my mind that is the defining moment of the game. That is why I blame this loss on Dusty.

I will likely not give him credit if he decides to start Ludwick tomorrow and Ludwick goes 3-5 with a homer. I will call it dumb luck. :)

There is no way to know had joey played the reds would have won. Eight regulars started that should be enough to pit 3-4 runs on the board.

brm7675
05-31-2012, 11:09 PM
I'm just curious as to what manager would satisfy this fan base. I'm not sure of one manager in the league who would.

Fred H.

Sparky A.

Lou P.

mu4103
06-01-2012, 12:23 AM
There is no way to know had joey played the reds would have won. Eight regulars started that should be enough to pit 3-4 runs on the board.

I hope you mean 7 regulars unless you are including Cueto?

Stats:
2 hole - Stubbs 0-1 with 2BB
3 hole - Jay Bruce 0-4 with 3 LOB
4 hole - Brandon Phillips 0-3 with 2 LOB
5 Hole - Heisey 2-4

Not Much production out of the 3 and 4 hole. I am pretty sure Votto could have scratched a run or two out somewhere.

Votto's OBP is .463, it would be pretty tough not to eek out at least 1 more run with him in the line-up. And the other hitters get better pitches to hit.

Maker_84
06-01-2012, 01:03 AM
How is first place, the 4th best record in the NL considered failing?

Because this team as it is will no do nothing in the playoffs just like 2010

PumpFak3First
06-01-2012, 01:44 AM
Can the other team never get any credit? Burnett outside of 1 disastrous start is having a good season. In his last handful of starts his ERA was around 2.00. He's been pitching well. Sometimes you have to give the other team credit and tip your cap. Not everything is Dusty's fault.

dubc47834
06-01-2012, 07:58 AM
Honestly believe a lot of folks:thumbdown: on this site would rather be in 4th place with someone else managing than in 1st with Dusty.

Never thought of this...but I honestly think you are right!!!!

dubc47834
06-01-2012, 08:09 AM
Because this team as it is will no do nothing in the playoffs just like 2010

Would you rather not make the playoffs? Would yo urather be the Pirates? Would you rather we go another 15 years without a playoff trip? I understand we have a great tradition and we are a historic franchise, but baseball has changed and it is tougher to compete with the NY's and other powerhouse franchises. You better enjoy what we have as a team, because if we start losing or don't make the playoffs consistantly, do you really think they will keep this team together. Not when you have a 1/3 of the ballpark full of fans. Everyone needs to turn the glass from half empty to half full.

:beerme::redszone:

markymark69
06-01-2012, 09:13 AM
Honestly believe a lot of folks:thumbdown: on this site would rather be in 4th place with someone else managing than in 1st with Dusty.

:beerme:

will5979
06-01-2012, 09:22 AM
Can the other team never get any credit? Burnett outside of 1 disastrous start is having a good season. In his last handful of starts his ERA was around 2.00. He's been pitching well. Sometimes you have to give the other team credit and tip your cap. Not everything is Dusty's fault.

Because its the $hittsburgh Pirates, NO. They are lowly scum that plays in a horrible 3rd World Country excuse of a city. WE ARE BETTER THAN THE PIRATES AND SHOULD BE ENORMOUSLY ASHAMED THAT WE LOST THE SERIES. Duhhhsty should be fired for that loss, it was soley on him.

dubc47834
06-01-2012, 09:35 AM
Because its the $hittsburgh Pirates, NO. They are lowly scum that plays in a horrible 3rd World Country excuse of a city. WE ARE BETTER THAN THE PIRATES AND SHOULD BE ENORMOUSLY ASHAMED THAT WE LOST THE SERIES. Duhhhsty should be fired for that loss, it was soley on him.

Uhhhhh...have you watched the Pirates at all this year or last. They are a quickly improving team. And you might want to watch what you say about their city, because many feel the same way about Cincinnati.

will5979
06-01-2012, 09:39 AM
because many feel the same way about Cincinnati.

True, but at least Cincy ain't nearly as depressing as that scum hole.

My hatred for the Pitt Panthers and the city of Pittsburgh carries over to baseball.

dubc47834
06-01-2012, 09:45 AM
True, but at least Cincy ain't nearly as depressing as that scum hole.

My hatred for the Pitt Panthers and the city of Pittsburgh carries over to baseball.

I see how it is......:thumbdown:

bounty37h
06-01-2012, 11:06 AM
Fred H.

Sparky A.

Lou P.

Pretty sure 2 of those are not available these days...

brm7675
06-01-2012, 11:53 AM
Because this team as it is will no do nothing in the playoffs just like 2010

According to whom? If you know this can you please pass on to me if there will be an upset at the Belmont and next week lotto numbers...

brm7675
06-01-2012, 11:56 AM
Because its the $hittsburgh Pirates, NO. They are lowly scum that plays in a horrible 3rd World Country excuse of a city. WE ARE BETTER THAN THE PIRATES AND SHOULD BE ENORMOUSLY ASHAMED THAT WE LOST THE SERIES. Duhhhsty should be fired for that loss, it was soley on him.

Have you ever been to Pittsburgh? Well lets see, they have a better NFL team, their baseball stadium blows GABP away, their downtown is much more active then Cincy. Over the history of the Pirate franchise is comes close to rivaling the Reds. There present situation is similar to the Rays as they have a plan and are building via the draft and have some good young talent. I think you might want to reevaluate Pittsburgh and remove the red colored glasses.

brm7675
06-01-2012, 11:57 AM
True, but at least Cincy ain't nearly as depressing as that scum hole.

My hatred for the Pitt Panthers and the city of Pittsburgh carries over to baseball.

Have you been to downtown Cincy? What the hell is there? Sure in another year there will be a casino, but there is nothing else. Hell come 5pm the downtown is DEAD, there is more "action" across the river in KY, which is really sad...

Maker_84
06-01-2012, 01:47 PM
Would you rather not make the playoffs? Would yo urather be the Pirates? Would you rather we go another 15 years without a playoff trip? I understand we have a great tradition and we are a historic franchise, but baseball has changed and it is tougher to compete with the NY's and other powerhouse franchises. You better enjoy what we have as a team, because if we start losing or don't make the playoffs consistantly, do you really think they will keep this team together. Not when you have a 1/3 of the ballpark full of fans. Everyone needs to turn the glass from half empty to half full.

:beerme::redszone:

if ur asking me which i would rather choose to being swept in the playoffs and no hit again on national tv vs not making the playoffs then i choose not making the playoffs. Also to all the people who really believe Pittsburgh is a nice place to live are idiots. The roads are small, it's a hilly terrain and hard to get around, the people there aren't friendly and believe they're an east coast city, the weather sucks. Of all the people i've talked to who have both lived in Detroit and Pittsburgh ALL prefer Detroit. Now whats that say about that city?

Ironman92
06-01-2012, 02:08 PM
How many people do you know that have lived in both cities? I know zero.

Maker_84
06-01-2012, 02:24 PM
How many people do you know that have lived in both cities? I know zero.

Quite a few actually

dubc47834
06-01-2012, 03:03 PM
if ur asking me which i would rather choose to being swept in the playoffs and no hit again on national tv vs not making the playoffs then i choose not making the playoffs. Also to all the people who really believe Pittsburgh is a nice place to live are idiots. The roads are small, it's a hilly terrain and hard to get around, the people there aren't friendly and believe they're an east coast city, the weather sucks. Of all the people i've talked to who have both lived in Detroit and Pittsburgh ALL prefer Detroit. Now whats that say about that city?

Idiots???? So you would rather root for a franchise that always sucks and never will win a championship as opposed to one that at least has a shot? I know I would rather have that shot at winning, you might not win it very often, but hey, I had a chance. With the way you have acted on here I'm sure you have problems with people most anywhere you go!!!!

:mooner::mooner::mooner::mooner::mooner::mooner::m ooner::mooner::mooner::mooner::mooner::mooner::moo ner::mooner::mooner::mooner::mooner::mooner:

brm7675
06-01-2012, 03:24 PM
if ur asking me which i would rather choose to being swept in the playoffs and no hit again on national tv vs not making the playoffs then i choose not making the playoffs. Also to all the people who really believe Pittsburgh is a nice place to live are idiots. The roads are small, it's a hilly terrain and hard to get around, the people there aren't friendly and believe they're an east coast city, the weather sucks. Of all the people i've talked to who have both lived in Detroit and Pittsburgh ALL prefer Detroit. Now whats that say about that city?

The people you have talked to either ate paint chips as a child or are not real bright?:thumbup:

Kingspoint
06-01-2012, 06:20 PM
As far as giving Dusty credit for winning games?

Absolutely not!

Unless you know more than Sparky Anderson, it was Sparky Anderson who said, "A Manager doesn't win games. He can only lose them. I try to do the best I can at losing as few as possible."

Todd Gack
06-01-2012, 08:16 PM
I was happy with Lou, Davey and Jack....Narron and Bob Boone were the worst. Miley....McKanin sp....Dusty, Knight.....meh. Pete seemed pretty good, but I was pretty young.

Still bitter about what they did to Oester before settling with Boone....which IMO led to a lot of this.

I was happy with those same guys too, but it doesn't mean they'd be performing any better than this team is now too.

Mr Larkin
06-01-2012, 11:14 PM
Cueto walked a guy with two outs and they got a key hit - that is why we lost.
Votto has to sit at some point.
Of all the stupid things he has done, this is not on Dusty.

LeDoux
06-02-2012, 12:21 AM
if ur asking me which i would rather choose to being swept in the playoffs and no hit again on national tv vs not making the playoffs then i choose not making the playoffs. Also to all the people who really believe Pittsburgh is a nice place to live are idiots. The roads are small, it's a hilly terrain and hard to get around, the people there aren't friendly and believe they're an east coast city, the weather sucks. Of all the people i've talked to who have both lived in Detroit and Pittsburgh ALL prefer Detroit. Now whats that say about that city?

Tropical Pittsburg or picturesque Detroit? A tough call indeed. But ah, Cleveland! That is the true Paris of the rust belt!