Someone in the media needs to hold Walt accountable

[5TimeWSChamps]

And ask him what their thought process was in targeting Latos over Gio Gonzalez.

Because this trade is on the verge of turning into Paul O'Neill for Roberto Kelly bad.

[Red Buckeye]

I'm not going to go that far, yet, but there's no question it's been a pretty huge letdown.

[5TimeWSChamps]

It gutted the farm system of EVERY other MLB-ready prospect they had.

[Wonderful Monds]

You know who else was this bad if not worse as young pitchers? Both Cliff Lee and Roy Halladay. I'm fairly certain they both got sent to single A ball after they'd been at the MLB level for awhile.

Baseball is weird, players (especially pitchers) can just have really awful seasons, and then end up bouncing back the next year. I do know one thing though, Mat Latos isn't truly two runs worse than he's been his whole career, despite what he's shown so far this season.

[Wonderful Monds]

Meanwhile, Gio Gonzalez has been a pitcher who gives up Edison Volquez levels of walks. He won't continue to be this good.

[5TimeWSChamps]

You know who else was this bad if not worse as young pitchers? Both Cliff Lee and Roy Halladay. I'm fairly certain they both got sent to single A ball after they'd been at the MLB level for awhile.

Baseball is weird, players (especially pitchers) can just have really awful seasons, and then end up bouncing back the next year. I do know one thing though, Mat Latos isn't truly two runs worse than he's been his whole career, despite what he's shown so far this season.

Then they shouldn't have made the trade if they are going all-in THIS YEAR, which was the point of the trade.

[Wonderful Monds]

Then they shouldn't have made the trade if they are going all-in THIS YEAR, which was the point of the trade.
How does that make sense? They couldn't have predicted he was going to do this coming over starting this year. Plus, literally the entire team is now locked up for long term. This year is no longer make or break.

Not to mention, the whole team is playing incredibly well.

[5TimeWSChamps]

How does that make sense? They couldn't have predicted he was going to do this coming over starting this year. Plus, literally the entire team is now locked up for long term. This year is no longer make or break.

Not to mention, the whole team is playing incredibly well.

How does it not? You basically said Latos is young so he should be forgiven. But when you gut the entire farm system in one trade, you are doing it for this year

[Wonderful Monds]

How does it not? You basically said Latos is young so he should be forgiven. But when you gut the entire farm system in one trade, you are doing it for this year
No, you literally aren't. Part of the reason he cost so much is due to the fact that he will be here long term.

[5TimeWSChamps]

Alright, I'm done arguing with the Walt-Yes-Men

[OGB]

It gutted the farm system of EVERY other MLB-ready prospect they had.

So for all practical purposes, you mean Alonso?

Because Hoover and Joseph would both be considered more major league ready than Boxberger with the year he's having.
Last time I checked, Mesoraco was in Grandal's way. If they hapen to have an injury, they have veterans in Navarro and Miller to step in for a short stretch. I'd rather have a vet come up for a few weeks than a 24 year old rookie, if one of my regular catchers had to miss a few weeks.

[EMAW]

Was Gonzalez offered for the same package of players?
A pitcher who walks a lot of hitters does not prosper in GABP
It's too early (13 starts?) to evaluate the deal
Alonso is hardly tearing it up at Petco and Volquez leads the NL in walks

[5TimeWSChamps]

So for all practical purposes, you mean Alonso?

Because Hoover and Joseph would both be considered more major league ready than Boxberger with the year he's having.
Last time I checked, Mesoraco was in Grandal's way. If they hapen to have an injury, they have veterans in Navarro and Miller to step in for a short stretch. I'd rather have a vet come up for a few weeks than a 24 year old rookie, if one of my regular catchers had to miss a few weeks.

Well, for practical purposes I mean trade pieces to be used in other deals. You basically gave up all your ML ready trade prospects in one move

[5TimeWSChamps]

Was Gonzalez offered for the same package of players?
A pitcher who walks a lot of hitters does not prosper in GABP
It's too early (13 starts?) to evaluate the deal
Alonso is hardly tearing it up at Petco and Volquez leads the NL in walks

They didn't even inquire about Gio. They focused on Latos from the beginning

[Wonderful Monds]

They didn't even inquire about Gio. They focused on Latos from the beginning
Which as I've already pointed out, was the correct thing to do.

[DocRed]

Blame the scouts...

[Wonderful Monds]

Blame the scouts...
For what?

[2539redsfan]

We have to put up a 10 spot to win when Latos pitches. I know that going in.
Even with 10 I'm not comfortable.

[brm7675]

It gutted the farm system of EVERY other MLB-ready prospect they had.

We traded away what we either didn't need or had extra of for a talented still young and developing pitcher....you make that deal every day...and twice on Sunday.

[brm7675]

They didn't even inquire about Gio. They focused on Latos from the beginning

You know this how. Look there are a number of things to rip Walt over...this deal is not one of them.

[Todd Gack]

We traded away what we either didn't need or had extra of for a talented still young and developing pitcher....you make that deal every day...and twice on Sunday.

I hate this argument that we traded away guys who were getting 'blocked.' Yes guys were getting 'blocked' but we could've traded for others. I'd rather have James Shields even at his age. The fact we control Latos for multiple years at a premium is great, but this guy has to perform at some point . . .even if it's only June of his first year too.

[brm7675]

I hate this argument that we traded away guys who were getting 'blocked.' Yes guys were getting 'blocked' but we could've traded for others. I'd rather have James Shields even at his age. The fact we control Latos for multiple years at a premium is great, but this guy has to perform at some point . . .even if it's only June of his first year too.

I hate this idea that people think that James Shield was available. Maybe we should have gone after that young pitcher from the M's that was good and the Yankees got..oh wait he is having TJ surgery...

[5TimeWSChamps]

You know this how. Look there are a number of things to rip Walt over...this deal is not one of them.

John Fay has stated on twitter numerous times that they focused on Latos only

[5TimeWSChamps]

I hate this argument that we traded away guys who were getting 'blocked.' Yes guys were getting 'blocked' but we could've traded for others. I'd rather have James Shields even at his age. The fact we control Latos for multiple years at a premium is great, but this guy has to perform at some point . . .even if it's only June of his first year too.

That's what I'm saying. You had 2 big pieces to strengthen your team. You put them both in the same trade for a pitcher who has underperformed.

When you are working on a budget like the Reds are, you can't afford to miss on moves like that

[5TimeWSChamps]

That's what I'm saying. You had 2 big pieces to strengthen your team. You put them both in the same trade for a pitcher who has underperformed.

When you are working on a budget like the Reds are, you can't afford to miss on moves like that

Especially when you have the best pitcher on the planet that you were supposedly moving into the rotation this year.

Which rotation would you rather have?

Cueto
Latos
Arroyo
Bailey
Leake

or

Cueto
Chapman
Arroyo
Bailey
Leake
(While still having your main trade pieces to improve the holes on your team)

[OGB]

Well, for practical purposes I mean trade pieces to be used in other deals. You basically gave up all your ML ready trade prospects in one move

Didn't gut them of Mesoraco, Frazier, Cozart, Joseph, Sappelt, Villareal, Rodriguez, Corcino, Sulbaran or Soto.
If your problem is that you don't like Latos, then that is fine, but don't act as if the Reds minor leagues were depleted solely because of this trade. Also don't act as if this same package wouldn't have been the prerequisite to acquire Gonzalez, Cahill, or any of the other top flight starters available this offseason.
Just look at what Washington gave u to get Gio.

Sure, they gave up 2 of their top 4 prospects, but they included another "ML ready prospect" in the deal to get Marshall. If you think they don't have enough pieces left to get another deal done, it makes me wonder who you'd want to pursue.

Edited to add: Since you considered 2 current Padres AAA players as ML ready prospects, I figured that qualified everyone I listed above to be in that same company.

[5TimeWSChamps]

http://www.minorleagueball.com/2010/12/21/1889805/cincinnati-reds-top-20-prospects-for-2011

You gave up #3, #5, and #12 according to this list

[brm7675]

John Fay has stated on twitter numerous times that they focused on Latos only

And you believe Fay? Was Fay sitting in the Reds offices...or going off what he heard...

[5TimeWSChamps]

And you believe Fay? Was Fay sitting in the Reds offices...or going off what he heard...

You tweet him enough BS that I'm sure you believe him.

Get out of my thread, I don't need your trolling

[brm7675]

Especially when you have the best pitcher on the planet that you were supposedly moving into the rotation this year.

Which rotation would you rather have?

Cueto
Latos
Arroyo
Bailey
Leake

or



Cueto
Chapman
Arroyo
Bailey
Leake
(While still having your main trade pieces to improve the holes on your team)


And we know Chapman is a quality starter how?

[brm7675]

That's what I'm saying. You had 2 big pieces to strengthen your team. You put them both in the same trade for a pitcher who has underperformed.

When you are working on a budget like the Reds are, you can't afford to miss on moves like that

OMG...its been all of 2.5 months exactly what has those we traded done for SD this year so far. Do u know what DC and the Yanks gave up to get thier pitchers? I think if u look they gave up a number of quality young players. Wonder how Yankee fan is handling thier deal...

[herbdizzle]

Everyone needs to chill out on bashing Latos for christ's sake. The kid is 24. The trade is over and done with and none of the players we traded for him are playing any better than mediocre at the major league level right now. Latos' problem boils down to one issue right now, he is giving up too many home runs. In his 2 full seasons he gave up 16 in 2010 & 2011 each. So far in 2012 he has given up 15 (almost double his previous rate and accounting for the majority of run damage against).

Latos simply needs to begin hitting the lower half of the strike zone more. In games where he is pitching in the lower half he is filthy. It's OK that he is having his adjustment period now as he will only get better as the season goes on. I'm fully comfortable with him as our #4 starter right now with the capability to get better as we go forward. If everyone wanted to throw a young starter under the bus at 24, Cueto would have been run out of town.

[5TimeWSChamps]

OMG...its been all of 2.5 months exactly what has those we traded done for SD this year so far. Do u know what DC and the Yanks gave up to get thier pitchers? I think if u look they gave up a number of quality young players. Wonder how Yankee fan is handling thier deal...

So you ignored the part about working on a budget? The Yankees have been making horrible moves for years (Kevin Brown, Carl Pavano, etc, etc)

They can just spend to fix their mistakes

[brm7675]

You tweet him enough BS that I'm sure you believe him.

Get out of my thread, I don't need your trolling

It ain't trolling if its the truth. Come back with a review of the trade in say 2014 when we will be able to review it with actual real and legit data.

[brm7675]

So you ignored the part about working on a budget? The Yankees have been making horrible moves for years (Kevin Brown, Carl Pavano, etc, etc)

They can just spend to fix their mistakes


The Reds budget has increased and the Yanks is not what it once was.

[5TimeWSChamps]

Actually, i'm glad you responded. The fact you disagree with me means that I'm correct.

[5TimeWSChamps]

The Reds budget has increased and the Yanks is not what it once was.

And you know this how? Were you sitting in on Yankee management meetings determining the player budget for 2012?

[brm7675]

And you know this how? Were you sitting in on Yankee management meetings determining the player budget for 2012?

Brian Cashmen actually said so...you do know who he is right

[5TimeWSChamps]

Brian Cashmen actually said so...you do know who he is right

No, but I know who Brian Cashman is

[brm7675]

Actually, i'm glad you responded. The fact you disagree with me means that I'm correct.

Again WR will see but there is no way to rate this desk after only 2.5 months weather you want to believe or not...

[5TimeWSChamps]

Brian Cashmen actually said so...you do know who he is right

And so now everything GM's state now is the gospel?

Interesting

[brm7675]

And so now everything GM's state now is the gospel?

Interesting

Look at the Yankees...when was the last big high priced FA they signed?

[Wonderful Monds]

I am so glad this board is getting more moderators soon.

[Jamz]

One thing that I don't understand about people upset over the Latos trade is that he has been pretty directly responsible for a couple of our wins. Nothing we gave up to get him has done anything significant this season.

How can this be viewed as a loss right now?

[5TimeWSChamps]

One thing that I don't understand about people upset over the Latos trade is that he has been pretty directly responsible for a couple of our wins. Nothing we gave up to get him has done anything significant this season.

How can this be viewed as a loss right now?

Because the pieces used to acquire Latos could have been used to fill in other holes on the team. How hard is this to comprehend?

[5TimeWSChamps]

I am so glad this board is getting more moderators soon.

Ok Walt-Yes-Man, what rules were broken? Have I said a player sucks? No, I disagreed with the trade and stated why

[5TimeWSChamps]

Look at the Yankees...when was the last big high priced FA they signed?

Paying Soriano $12 million a year as a setup man?

[Wonderful Monds]

Ok Walt-Yes-Man, what rules were broken? Have I said a player sucks? No, I disagreed with the trade and stated why
Because these posts, this one included, are incredibly childish.

[kearns and dunn]

Because the pieces used to acquire Latos could have been used to fill in other holes on the team. How hard is this to comprehend?

Other than Alonso (who as we all saw, plays terrible defense in LF), what holes are the guys we traded filling? Backup catcher? AAA reliever?

[brm7675]

Because the pieces used to acquire Latos could have been used to fill in other holes on the team. How hard is this to comprehend?

And you have zero proof to support that assumption.

[brm7675]

Paying Soriano $12 million a year as a setup man?

When was that deal?

[5TimeWSChamps]

Other than Alonso (who as we all saw, plays terrible defense in LF), what holes are the guys we traded filling? Backup catcher? AAA reliever?

Trading them to other teams to fill holes.

We used all our AAA tradeable assets in one move

[5TimeWSChamps]

When was that deal?

Prior to 2011 season

[5TimeWSChamps]

I mean, if you guys want Willie Harris and Mike Costanzo as our LHB pinch hitters off the bench instead of Alonso, then that's your call

[5TimeWSChamps]

And you have zero proof to support that assumption.

We gave up the #3, #5, and #12 prospects in the organization. If you are saying that they are terrible and couldn't be moved to other teams, then the entire scouting department needs fired

[Wonderful Monds]

I mean, if you guys want Willie Harris and Mike Costanzo as our LHB pinch hitters off the bench instead of Alonso, then that's your call
I think having a TOR quality pitcher is a higher priority than pinch hitter.

[5TimeWSChamps]

I think having a TOR quality pitcher is a higher priority than pinch hitter.

So you'd rather have Latos in the rotation than Chapman?

[Wonderful Monds]

So you'd rather have Latos in the rotation than Chapman?
I'd rather have both pitchers in the rotation.

[5TimeWSChamps]

I'd rather have both pitchers in the rotation.

Fair point.

My point is, they were already grooming Chapman to move into the rotation prior to the 2012 season.

I don't see the point in making the trade when they did unless it was going all-in this year.

And now people are giving Latos a pass cause he's young. Sorry, when you give up as much as the Reds did, you can't afford to miss

[Wonderful Monds]

Fair point.

My point is, they were already grooming Chapman to move into the rotation prior to the 2012 season.

I don't see the point in making the trade when they did unless it was going all-in this year.

And now people are giving Latos a pass cause he's young. Sorry, when you give up as much as the Reds did, you can't afford to miss
I still don't understand why you keep saying it was a move made for this year. That makes absolutely zero logical sense. They acquired him so they actually could compete for years to come. This will be the same team for years now.

And again, it is far too early to be able to say they missed on him.

[joshua]

I'm off the Latos band wagon. The kid doesn't have the mental ability to become the top of the rotation starter we traded the farm for. Stuff? There. Control? Meh. Mental ability? Noooope.

I wish more than anything we still had Grandal on the team. Having a switch hitter would be awesome and exactly what this team needs. ****.

[brm7675]

I mean, if you guys want Willie Harris and Mike Costanzo as our LHB pinch hitters off the bench instead of Alonso, then that's your call

So u would waste the kid as a PH?

[brm7675]

So you'd rather have Latos in the rotation than Chapman?


How many games has Chapman started? We have no clue if Chapman is starter material or not...we know Latos is...

[brm7675]

Fair point.

My point is, they were already grooming Chapman to move into the rotation prior to the 2012 season.

I don't see the point in making the trade when they did unless it was going all-in this year.

And now people are giving Latos a pass cause he's young. Sorry, when you give up as much as the Reds did, you can't afford to miss

How do we know we missed?

[brm7675]

I'm off the Latos band wagon. The kid doesn't have the mental ability to become the top of the rotation starter we traded the farm for. Stuff? There. Control? Meh. Mental ability? Noooope.

I wish more than anything we still had Grandal on the team. Having a switch hitter would be awesome and exactly what this team needs. ****.

How would he help he would be in AAA.

[joshua]

Who said anything about this year? I don't care if he's in AAA until September 2013, I think Grandal is going to be better than Mesoraco when all is said and done.

[brm7675]

Who said anything about this year? I don't care if he's in AAA until September 2013, I think Grandal is going to be better than Mesoraco when all is said and done.

Based off of what?

[Who Dey Time]

The idea that the Reds gave up the house for Latos is an absolute fallacy. The fact is that Latos is the most proven Major Leaguer in that deal with the exception of Volquez and anyone who claims that they would rather have seen Volquez back than having Latos is a flat out liar.

Alonso, the supposed great talent (who is one year OLDER than Latos) is hitting a very Chris Heisey like .255 with 2 HR and 17 RBI. Quite the impact player that we all expected.

Boxberger, the same age as Latos, has just made his MLB debut and will pitch middle relief for San Diego. I'll go out on a limb and say that the Reds are not desperate for middle relief help.

Grandal, the only one younger than Latos, has exactly one MLB at bat and is currently back in the minors. Also, given the fact that Mesoraco has shown glimpses of success in his rookie year it's hard to argue that Grandal was expendable.

Latos has been far from outstanding but also hasn't been nearly as bad as some here claim. Now, predictably, those who hate the trade will fire back with some nonsense that the players that were sent to San Diego are young and will continue to improve and show themselves to be quality major leaguers. Well, Latos already is a quality major leaguer at the same age as they beloved prospects. If they will improve, why won't Latos?????

The Reds had a need for a starting pitcher and they filled it with a young player with immense talent. If and when he is able to harness his abilites (much like Cueto and to a lesser extent Bailey have) some of you will look downright foolish.

Those proclaiming this deal a bust after 2 1/2 months already are foolish.

[kearns and dunn]

The idea that the Reds gave up the house for Latos is an absolute fallacy. The fact is that Latos is the most proven Major Leaguer in that deal with the exception of Volquez and anyone who claims that they would rather have seen Volquez back than having Latos is a flat out liar.

Alonso, the supposed great talent (who is one year OLDER than Latos) is hitting a very Chris Heisey like .255 with 2 HR and 17 RBI. Quite the impact player that we all expected.

Boxberger, the same age as Latos, has just made his MLB debut and will pitch middle relief for San Diego. I'll go out on a limb and say that the Reds are not desperate for middle relief help.

Grandal, the only one younger than Latos, has exactly one MLB at bat and is currently back in the minors. Also, given the fact that Mesoraco has shown glimpses of success in his rookie year it's hard to argue that Grandal was expendable.

Latos has been far from outstanding but also hasn't been nearly as bad as some here claim. Now, predictably, those who hate the trade will fire back with some nonsense that the players that were sent to San Diego are young and will continue to improve and show themselves to be quality major leaguers. Well, Latos already is a quality major leaguer at the same age as they beloved prospects. If they will improve, why won't Latos?????

The Reds had a need for a starting pitcher and they filled it with a young player with immense talent. If and when he is able to harness his abilites (much like Cueto and to a lesser extent Bailey have) some of you will look downright foolish.

Those proclaiming this deal a bust after 2 1/2 months already are foolish.


We can go ahead and end this thread now. This guy gets it.

[5TimeWSChamps]

The idea that the Reds gave up the house for Latos is an absolute fallacy. The fact is that Latos is the most proven Major Leaguer in that deal with the exception of Volquez and anyone who claims that they would rather have seen Volquez back than having Latos is a flat out liar.

Alonso, the supposed great talent (who is one year OLDER than Latos) is hitting a very Chris Heisey like .255 with 2 HR and 17 RBI. Quite the impact player that we all expected.

Boxberger, the same age as Latos, has just made his MLB debut and will pitch middle relief for San Diego. I'll go out on a limb and say that the Reds are not desperate for middle relief help.

Grandal, the only one younger than Latos, has exactly one MLB at bat and is currently back in the minors. Also, given the fact that Mesoraco has shown glimpses of success in his rookie year it's hard to argue that Grandal was expendable.

Latos has been far from outstanding but also hasn't been nearly as bad as some here claim. Now, predictably, those who hate the trade will fire back with some nonsense that the players that were sent to San Diego are young and will continue to improve and show themselves to be quality major leaguers. Well, Latos already is a quality major leaguer at the same age as they beloved prospects. If they will improve, why won't Latos?????

The Reds had a need for a starting pitcher and they filled it with a young player with immense talent. If and when he is able to harness his abilites (much like Cueto and to a lesser extent Bailey have) some of you will look downright foolish.

Those proclaiming this deal a bust after 2 1/2 months already are foolish.

So you'd rather have Latos than Gio Gonzalez?

[5TimeWSChamps]

The idea that the Reds gave up the house for Latos is an absolute fallacy. The fact is that Latos is the most proven Major Leaguer in that deal with the exception of Volquez and anyone who claims that they would rather have seen Volquez back than having Latos is a flat out liar.

Alonso, the supposed great talent (who is one year OLDER than Latos) is hitting a very Chris Heisey like .255 with 2 HR and 17 RBI. Quite the impact player that we all expected.

Boxberger, the same age as Latos, has just made his MLB debut and will pitch middle relief for San Diego. I'll go out on a limb and say that the Reds are not desperate for middle relief help.

Grandal, the only one younger than Latos, has exactly one MLB at bat and is currently back in the minors. Also, given the fact that Mesoraco has shown glimpses of success in his rookie year it's hard to argue that Grandal was expendable.

Latos has been far from outstanding but also hasn't been nearly as bad as some here claim. Now, predictably, those who hate the trade will fire back with some nonsense that the players that were sent to San Diego are young and will continue to improve and show themselves to be quality major leaguers. Well, Latos already is a quality major leaguer at the same age as they beloved prospects. If they will improve, why won't Latos?????

The Reds had a need for a starting pitcher and they filled it with a young player with immense talent. If and when he is able to harness his abilites (much like Cueto and to a lesser extent Bailey have) some of you will look downright foolish.

Those proclaiming this deal a bust after 2 1/2 months already are foolish.

I didn't know Dallas Latos posted on Redzone

[joshua]

Based off of what?

30 years of watching baseball and seeing that Mesoraco hasn't done anything impressive outside of 2010. Grandal's defense is nearly as good, he's a switch hitter and he's developing at a fast pace than Mesoraco has.

[Who Dey Time]

I didn't know Dallas Latos posted on Redzone

Message boards 101....when you can't argue the point attempt to deflect the fact you got owned by posting a irrelevant, idiotic comment.

And since you brought up her name my guess is that you are one of those Twitter tough guys that send pathetic things to her. If so, you should be so proud.

[5TimeWSChamps]

Message boards 101....when you can't argue the point attempt to deflect the fact you got owned by posting a irrelevant, idiotic comment.

And since you brought up her name my guess is that you are one of those Twitter tough guys that send pathetic things to her. If so, you should be so proud.

Haha, I've never posted a thing to her. The original part of the thread is why Walt focused on Latos and not Gio.

[Who Dey Time]

30 years of watching baseball and seeing that Mesoraco hasn't done anything impressive outside of 2010. Grandal's defense is nearly as good, he's a switch hitter and he's developing at a fast pace than Mesoraco has.

Based off of his one major league at bat?

[Who Dey Time]

Haha, I've never posted a thing to her. The original part of the thread is why Walt focused on Latos and not Gio.

He focused on Latos because he and Gio have roughly the same numbers after 2011 and Latos is two years younger and further away from his FA year.

Can't really fault him for that line of thinking.

[5TimeWSChamps]

He focused on Latos because he and Gio have roughly the same numbers after 2011 and Latos is two years younger and further away from his FA year.

Can't really fault him for that line of thinking.

True, the other side is you could possibly have given up less to get Gio and still have a tradeable asset. (I'm posting this before I go and look up the ranks of the prospects Washington gave up, so I reserve the right to edit this post later if it's not correct :) )

[R_Webb18]

Then they shouldn't have made the trade if they are going all-in THIS YEAR, which was the point of the trade.

how is it with all the ppl under contract this is all in mode.

people need to realize we have shot be good for awhile

[5TimeWSChamps]

how is it with all the ppl under contract this is all in mode.

people need to realize we have shot be good for awhile

Well, in December when the trade was made, the main core wasn't under contract

[OGB]

So you'd rather have Latos than Gio Gonzalez?

Would you rather have Carlos Gonzalez than Miguel Cairo?
Because since there is zero reason to believe they were trying to get Gonzalez or could have gotten Gonzalez, you may as well speculate about anyone. The Nationals offered a far better package for Gio than the Reds traded to get Latos. Hell, it wasn't even close.

[R_Webb18]

Well, in December when the trade was made, the main core wasn't under contract

but it's not now. things change all the time.

i still don't regret the trade.

also im not so sure this chapman to starter thing will work. it might but ppl need to understand couple innings here and there is not the same as 5+ ever 5 days.

[OGB]

True, the other side is you could possibly have given up less to get Gio and still have a tradeable asset. (I'm posting this before I go and look up the ranks of the prospects Washington gave up, so I reserve the right to edit this post later if it's not correct :) )

Well let me capture this for posterity's sake, then.

So let me get this straight, what you're saying is you're basing this entire ludicrous thread on the premise that the Reds could/should have traded for Gio Gonzalez without being aware of the fact that the Nationals gave up far more talent than the Reds did to get Latos?
The Nationals gave u their number 3, 4, 6, and 9 ranked prospects in that deal.

[5TimeWSChamps]

Well let me capture this for posterity's sake, then.

So let me get this straight, what you're saying is you're basing this entire ludicrous thread on the premise that the Reds could/should have traded for Gio Gonzalez without being aware of the fact that the Nationals gave up far more talent than the Reds did to get Latos?
The Nationals gave u their number 3, 4, 6, and 9 ranked prospects in that deal.

As opposed to #3, #5, #12, and a former All-Star starting pitcher.

The trade was also done 6 days after the Reds traded for Latos, so they could have at least inquired as to see what it would have taken.

And I'm insulted taht he called my thread ludicrous The Operator, Please infract OGB for this post in order of fairness since I got one earlier

[Wonderful Monds]

I didn't know Dallas Latos posted on Redzone
That is the kind of response this board doesn't need. He posted a very reasonable take on the trade and backed it up with anaylsis, and you replied with childish garbage.

[Wonderful Monds]

So you'd rather have Latos than Gio Gonzalez?
Yes, because for the third time, Latos is better than Gonzalez.

[5TimeWSChamps]

Yes, because for the third time, Latos is better than Gonzalez.

Based on?

[brm7675]

So you'd rather have Latos than Gio Gonzalez?

Yep..better long term up side. Also did u see how much and what the Nationals gave up for him?

[brm7675]

As opposed to #3, #5, #12, and a former All-Star starting pitcher.

The trade was also done 6 days after the Reds traded for Latos, so they could have at least inquired as to see what it would have taken.

And I'm insulted taht he called my thread ludicrous The Operator, Please infract OGB for this post in order of fairness since I got one earlier

Again u have no idea what Walt did or didn't do.

[improbus]

Walt, you need to be held accountable for building a top 10 baseball team. How dare you put together a first place team! Simply unforgivable.

[herbdizzle]

If you take this year's stats out of the equation and look at Latos & Gio going into this year I would want Latos. He is 2 years younger, already acclimated to pitching in the NL, and has more years of club control. Yes Gio's strong 1st half makes Latos look inferior but equating that is armchair quarterbacking. Most of this board community acknowledged that we gave up a lot for Latos but would live with it because we needed another starting pitcher for the rotation we could count on for several years. With there being off season questions regarding Bailey & Arroyo pulling the trigger on Latos made sense and I supported the move.

An objective view shows Volquez is still suffering the same control problems, Alonso is not hitting any better than guys we kept, & Grandal/Boxberger are still just cracking the major league roster. Meanwhile Latos has had 1 problem in his transition, giving up more home runs (15 this year vs. 16 each in 2010/2011). He just needs to focus on keeping his fastball in the lower half of the strike zone. When he has done that he is almost unhittable. The games he is on you see the dominating skills he possesses.

I would prefer to have Chapman in the rotation also but not at Latos' expense. If anyone's spot is tenuous it is Mike Leake but that is another discussion. Jocketty should be given credit for being aggressive in the off season and we should reserve judgement until this season's results are in. Remember we are in 1st place & 4 1/2 games ahead of our main rival.

[Todd Gack]

Latos has been far from outstanding but also hasn't been nearly as bad as some here claim.

Let it be known that Who Dey thinks a 5.20 ERA and Latos having given up the most HR's he's given up in his career. . .and it's only June as a season that 'hasn't been nearly as bad as some here claim.'

[brm7675]

30 years of watching baseball and seeing that Mesoraco hasn't done anything impressive outside of 2010. Grandal's defense is nearly as good, he's a switch hitter and he's developing at a fast pace than Mesoraco has.

So how many actual games of Grandals have you watched?

[brm7675]

Let it be known that Who Dey thinks a 5.20 ERA and Latos having given up the most HR's he's given up in his career. . .and it's only June as a season that 'hasn't been nearly as bad as some here claim.'

How many 24 year olds are pitching in the majors right now and how does Latos compare to them...

[OGB]

So how many actual games of Grandals have you watched?

I like Grandal, too, but I was also wondering whether OP had an explanation for why he has reverted to throwing out less than 25% of base runners this year and guys are running on him left and right.

[Who Dey Time]

Let it be known that Who Dey thinks a 5.20 ERA and Latos having given up the most HR's he's given up in his career. . .and it's only June as a season that 'hasn't been nearly as bad as some here claim.'

If you take away his two disaster starts (at STL and last night) Latos has a 3.98 ERA over the other 12 starts. Not a world beater but certainly not a disaster that some here want to portray.

Any pitcher will have terrible starts. But, being 24, I'm willing to allow Latos to have these rough patches since the upside to him is huge....certainly bigger than any player we traded him for.

[MrRedLegger]

Latos won his last 5 decisions and last night we lost a game that anyone here could have hit 2-4 in. In other words, the bats were flying. Last night was a shootout, and these things happen. How often does making a rotation change serve as a successful "quick fix" in today's game? Give it time.

It was only a few months ago when everyone wanted Bailey's and Leake's heads. I pray for their safety if they end up losing another game.

The unruly Sun Deck mob can speak in, say, 2 years, whether or not he's still a Red at that point. (At least he'll be 26) He's not a free agent until 2016.

Let the kid grow up and I challenge most of you to take a break and enjoy first place.

[Larkin88]

Skipped the fifth and sixth page of this thread because the arguments were starting to go in circles, so sorry if someone commented something to this effect.

But to the point that the Reds exclusively looked at Latos? Yeah, that couldn't be further from the truth (http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2011/12/reds-eyeing-gonzalez-latos-jurrjens.html). I don't know what John Fay tweets you took out of context, but the Reds were involved on kicking the tires with the Rays for Shields, Braves for Jurrjens, AND the A's for Gonzalez (https://twitter.com/#%21/DKnobler/statuses/147439168543391744) to name a few.

Stop pulling things out of thin air just because you have an axe to grind. Makes you look like a petulant child. The entire premise of this thread is based on a fallacy. Options were explored and a group of people with access to a wealth of information you do not have made a cost-benefit choice based on what they knew at hand.

He's thirteen games in and locked up long term. Gonzalez isn't as good as he's been this year so far. Latos isn't as bad as he's been. Verdict is still out. Relax.

[Larkin88]

I wish more than anything we still had Grandal on the team. Having a switch hitter would be awesome and exactly what this team needs. ****.

Billy Hamilton called. Wanted to let you know he's on his way in a year or two and that his position isn't going to be blocked.

Hang in there, man! I'm right there with you.

[Girevik]

First, let me start by admiting I haven't read all 7 pages of the thread. The views I'm stating here have probably been voiced by others.

I'll admit I'm hugely dissapointed in Lato's performance this year. If this is all we get out of him, the trade will be a huge bust not matter what the prospects end up doing. However, at the time of the trade I was thrilled. Based on the information out there, and Lato's past performance, I thought the Reds got a top or the rotation guy and he was going to be a huge part of the team.

I also think it's way too early for all the angst. Even if Latos keeps pitching like this all year, he's not a guy that was obtained for one year. I hope like crazy he gets it together sooner than later, but even one bad year from him wouldn't be a killer.

So, long post short: chillax.

[brm7675]

I think the question should be asked...How much time should be permitted too fully evaluate a trade like this. Personally I think you need to allow at least 2 full seasons. By then Latos will be 26, had over 4 full seaons in majors and 2 pitching for the Reds. At the end of the 2013 season I think we can then have some better insight on what Latos has done and also see what the players we gave up have done, but to state after less then 2.5 months the trade was a bust isn't fair to any of the players involved.

Also I have no issue with "questioning" some of the moves Walt has made during his tenure as Reds GM, but this isn't one at this point.

[dubc47834]

It's good to see that their are good posters on here and don't over react on 1 good/bad start. I'm not saying everyone on here who thinks the Latos deal was bad is a bad poster. Just that their isn't a need for the bickering that has gone on for the last 7 pages. Come on fellas, we are all Reds fans (I HOPE).

[Larkin88]

The trade was also done 6 days after the Reds traded for Latos, so they could have at least inquired as to see what it would have taken.

These things don't happen in a vacuum. You are totally ignoring the TYPE of prospects given up other than some arbitrary ranking system Baseball America cooks up. Three out of the four prospects the Nationals sent to Oakland were close-to-MLB-ready starting pitchers. There's a chance the A's weren't interested in a reliever, a declining starter (with the walking tendencies Gonzlez himself has), a catcher and a first basemen.

It takes two to tango. Your insinuations that you know more than everyone on this board, let alone Walt and the front office aren't so much insulting as they are comical.

[brm7675]

These things don't happen in a vacuum. You are totally ignoring the TYPE of prospects given up other than some arbitrary ranking system Baseball America cooks up. Three out of the four prospects the Nationals sent to Oakland were close-to-MLB-ready starting pitchers. There's a chance the A's weren't interested in a reliever, a declining starter (with the walking tendencies Gonzlez himself has), a catcher and a first basemen.

It takes two to tango. Your insinuations that you know more than everyone on this board, let alone Walt and the front office aren't so much insulting as they are comical.

I think you raise a good point, there is a good chance Oakland and or TB didn't want what we were offereing to trade their pitchers. I have not heard either Billy Beane or the TB GM say hey we would have taken what SD got for latos for our guys in a heartbeat....

[Larkin88]

I think you raise a good point, there is a good chance Oakland and or TB didn't want what we were offereing to trade their pitchers. I have not heard either Billy Beane or the TB GM say hey we would have taken what SD got for latos for our guys in a heartbeat....

"I told everyone I spoke to, we'd leverage one team against the other," Beane said. "We were giving up a pitcher, and the ability to acquire three very good major league prospects who were pitchers swung it for us."

Source. (http://espn.go.com/mlb/story/_/id/7385033/oakland-trade-gio-gonzalez-washington-nationals)

So 5TimeWSChamps, other than Volquez, curious what other two pitchers would you have traded away for Gonzalez?

[jimbo]

What an ridiculous thread. It'll be a funny one to revisit in the near future.

[fielder's choice]

Latos won his last 5 decisions and last night we lost a game that anyone here could have hit 2-4 in. In other words, the bats were flying. Last night was a shootout, and these things happen.

Sorry but this argument makes no sense. We could have went 2-4 because Latos was grooving fastballs right down the middle.

[Captain13]

Walt, you need to be held accountable for building a top 10 baseball team. How dare you put together a first place team! Simply unforgivable.

That!

[m21eagle45]

30 years of watching baseball and seeing that Mesoraco hasn't done anything impressive outside of 2010. Grandal's defense is nearly as good, he's a switch hitter and he's developing at a fast pace than Mesoraco has.

Grandal played 3 years at the top level of college baseball. Mes was drafted out of high school. It is the norm for a college player to progress faster than high school players, especially at a position like catcher. I believe it was also mentioned in this thread that the rate of that Grandal has thrown out runners has dropped drastically this year. Both players are 23 with major upside. I liked what Grandal brought to the Reds, but I have no problem with the Reds sticking with Mes. Both will be solid major league catchers.

[Todd Gack]

Walt, you need to be held accountable for building a top 10 baseball team. How dare you put together a first place team! Simply unforgivable.

I don't want a 1st place team. I want a World Series team. Walt's built a first place team, but there's still room to build that WS team.

[Todd Gack]

Latos won his last 5 decisions

Latos had a 4.64 ERA in those 5 starts.

[dubc47834]

I don't want a 1st place team. I want a World Series team. Walt's built a first place team, but there's still room to build that WS team.

I want a World Series to....but I would take 10 years of being in 1st place and not winning it than 15 years of what we had before 2010. At least their is a chance of a World Series with a 1st place team. I think most realistic fans want a team on the field that has a realistic chance at the beginning of the season to win it all and a team that plays hard. I think for the most part we have both of those. Aquiring Latos for guys that were blocked by talent that wasn't going anywhere(free agency) for a long while. I agreed with the trade then and still do. Like someone said earlier, you take out 2 horrible starts and Latos' era is pretty solid. I can't believe there are people arguing about what Walt has put on the field.....WE ARE IN 1ST PLACE!!!!

:beerme::bang::mooner::mooner::bang::beerme::bash: :party::pimp::owned::KoolAid::deadhorse::thisyear: :usa::usa::usa:

[krm1580]

This thread is just filled with the type of stuff that drives me crazy - on BOTH sides of the Matt Latos discussions

Crazy Point #1 - "We should have traded for X, instead of Latos" (X of course being someone who has outpitched Latos this season, which lets face it is ANYONE not named Tim Lincecum). The success rate for people who make predictions AFTER an event has happened is pretty close to 100%. If anyone can to provide a post from back in December saying we should have gotten Gio Gonzales rather than Matt Latos feel free to rant. If not most folks are not impressed by your hindsight. The other point on this is, unless you are in the front office you do not know who the Reds were trying to get, who they could have gotten or who was not available.

Crazy Point #2 - "The guys we gave up were blocked anyway so its no loss trading them for Matt Latos". Pure insanity. The players the Reds traded, at the time of the trade had significant value, especially to teams who wanted them. Whether they are blocked, or turn into dust once they are traded is irrelevant to their value at the time of the trade. If you trade that value and get little to nothing back for it, its a loss no matter how you try to rationalize it. It also ignores the opportunity cost of value you could have gotten in exchange.

For full disclosure, and you can check my posts from the past, I was luke warm on the Latos deal. I thought he could help but that the Reds paid far too much for him. So far he has been a major disappointment regardless of how you spin it.

[krm1580]

Sorry DP

[Maker_84]

I don't want a 1st place team. I want a World Series team. Walt's built a first place team, but there's still room to build that WS team.

This. Just making the playoffs isnt good enough this season. Have to make the NLCS

[dubc47834]

This. Just making the playoffs isnt good enough this season. Have to make the NLCS

You see....thats the problem with YOUR TYPE....nothing is ever good enough. 90% of your post are negative!!!!

[Who Dey Time]

This. Just making the playoffs isnt good enough this season. Have to make the NLCS

Or else what???

[brm7675]

This. Just making the playoffs isnt good enough this season. Have to make the NLCS

After not sniffing the playoffs much over the past 2 decades, I am happy with a division title and a strong showing in the playoffs...that doesn't have to include making it to the NLCS

[dubc47834]

After not sniffing the playoffs much over the past 2 decades, I am happy with a division title and a strong showing in the playoffs...that doesn't have to include making it to the NLCS

For once I agree with you, I'm tired of people saying we have to do this or do that for it to be a succesful season. Those 15 years that we couldn't sniff the playoffs people were screaming for a contender, now that we have one, people are still screaming. Just now they are screaming over crazy stuff!!! BLOWS MY MIND SOMETIMES!!!!

[Maker_84]

Yes im out of my mind because i expect success from my team that has the talent to make some noise this season, i dont understand how such a post is negative. I guess i dont have the loser mentality that 90% of the posters on here have and they misinterpret such posts as negativity. Good thing you guys arent the head of a big corporation just being content with mediocrity because you wouldn't last long

[dubc47834]

Yes im out of my mind because i expect success from my team that has the talent to make some noise this season, i dont understand how such a post is negative. I guess i dont have the loser mentality that 90% of the posters on here have and they misinterpret such posts as negativity. Good thing you guys arent the head of a big corporation just being content with mediocrity because you wouldn't last long

No, im not content with mediocrity, but I don't expect the world either. I looked thru your previous post earlier trying to find something I thought you had said earlier, and almost everything is negative. I can get past your expectations, but everything else...its rediculous man. I'm in the military, and if my comrades had your attitude life would be horrible!!! Lighten up man, enjoy this team. We are 10 games over .500 and in 1st place. There is always room for improvement. Unless your team goes 162-0 mistakes will be made by all.....the players, the manager, and the front office.

:beerme:

[brm7675]

Yes im out of my mind because i expect success from my team that has the talent to make some noise this season, i dont understand how such a post is negative. I guess i dont have the loser mentality that 90% of the posters on here have and they misinterpret such posts as negativity. Good thing you guys arent the head of a big corporation just being content with mediocrity because you wouldn't last long

We all want success but with anything in sports, it doesn't happen overnight. We are working our way to being a dominate team, right now we are not quite there, but getting closer...

[Who Dey Time]

Yes im out of my mind because i expect success from my team that has the talent to make some noise this season, i dont understand how such a post is negative. I guess i dont have the loser mentality that 90% of the posters on here have and they misinterpret such posts as negativity. Good thing you guys arent the head of a big corporation just being content with mediocrity because you wouldn't last long

For you to claim that the Reds have the talent to make noise this season is curious given that you spend every game thread stating how terrible the team is. The worst offense in the league is a common post made by you.

Which one is it?

[TheBigLebowski]

We paid too much; that can't be argued. But if we got the pitcher we thought we were getting, it would be easier to stomach. Latos has been awful. I'm not saying the trade is an absolute failure; I didn't want Volquez here any more than anyone else but the sad fact is, he's having a better season than Mat. Maybe Mat turns it around and becomes the solid #2 we thought we were getting. Time will tell.

However, one defense of this trade that I am just sick of is the following: "Alonso was blocked by Votto and Grandal was blocked by Mes. Those guys would not be helping us."

Bull. While it may be true that Alonso is blocked by Votto, he showed what he could do last year and just because he's blocked in our system, that doesn't decrease his market value. If it does, this organization needs to adopt a firm "draft to needs" approach rather than simply taking the BPA. It's stupid to take a blocked BPA if you're just going to sell him off at 40 cents on the dollar. As for Grandal, Mesoraco hasn't proven anything yet at the ML level and there is no question Grandal could have surpassed him. If we take the tack that Mes was blocking him as gospel, then the above scenario applies as they drafted him knowing they had the best catching prospect in baseball on board already.

[Kingspoint]

It's foolish to measure a Starting Pitcher on 10-15 starts when the trade was made for him to play for the team for 120+ starts.

[Kingspoint]

We paid too much; that can't be argued. That's a foolish statement. It can not only be argued, but to try to assume that you will know what will happen over the next 3-1/2 years of these players' careers is foolish beyond measure.

[panzecaz03]

The idea that the Reds gave up the house for Latos is an absolute fallacy. The fact is that Latos is the most proven Major Leaguer in that deal with the exception of Volquez and anyone who claims that they would rather have seen Volquez back than having Latos is a flat out liar.

Alonso, the supposed great talent (who is one year OLDER than Latos) is hitting a very Chris Heisey like .255 with 2 HR and 17 RBI. Quite the impact player that we all expected.

Boxberger, the same age as Latos, has just made his MLB debut and will pitch middle relief for San Diego. I'll go out on a limb and say that the Reds are not desperate for middle relief help.

Grandal, the only one younger than Latos, has exactly one MLB at bat and is currently back in the minors. Also, given the fact that Mesoraco has shown glimpses of success in his rookie year it's hard to argue that Grandal was expendable.

Latos has been far from outstanding but also hasn't been nearly as bad as some here claim. Now, predictably, those who hate the trade will fire back with some nonsense that the players that were sent to San Diego are young and will continue to improve and show themselves to be quality major leaguers. Well, Latos already is a quality major leaguer at the same age as they beloved prospects. If they will improve, why won't Latos?????

The Reds had a need for a starting pitcher and they filled it with a young player with immense talent. If and when he is able to harness his abilites (much like Cueto and to a lesser extent Bailey have) some of you will look downright foolish.

Those proclaiming this deal a bust after 2 1/2 months already are foolish.

couldn't have said it any better

[brm7675]

We paid too much; that can't be argued. But if we got the pitcher we thought we were getting, it would be easier to stomach. Latos has been awful. I'm not saying the trade is an absolute failure; I didn't want Volquez here any more than anyone else but the sad fact is, he's having a better season than Mat. Maybe Mat turns it around and becomes the solid #2 we thought we were getting. Time will tell.

However, one defense of this trade that I am just sick of is the following: "Alonso was blocked by Votto and Grandal was blocked by Mes. Those guys would not be helping us."

Bull. While it may be true that Alonso is blocked by Votto, he showed what he could do last year and just because he's blocked in our system, that doesn't decrease his market value. If it does, this organization needs to adopt a firm "draft to needs" approach rather than simply taking the BPA. It's stupid to take a blocked BPA if you're just going to sell him off at 40 cents on the dollar. As for Grandal, Mesoraco hasn't proven anything yet at the ML level and there is no question Grandal could have surpassed him. If we take the tack that Mes was blocking him as gospel, then the above scenario applies as they drafted him knowing they had the best catching prospect in baseball on board already.


We have no idea of what his "market" value is, only other Gm's determine that and none of us here are that. Alonso is a one position player, it's either first base or nothing position wise or maybe a DH.

We gave up 2 prospects with NO future on this team and other teams knew that and could use it in trade talk. We didn't overpay...ask DC what they had to give up to get Gio...ask the Yanks what they gave up to get damaged goods...

[brm7675]

We paid too much; that can't be argued. But if we got the pitcher we thought we were getting, it would be easier to stomach. Latos has been awful. I'm not saying the trade is an absolute failure; I didn't want Volquez here any more than anyone else but the sad fact is, he's having a better season than Mat. Maybe Mat turns it around and becomes the solid #2 we thought we were getting. Time will tell.

However, one defense of this trade that I am just sick of is the following: "Alonso was blocked by Votto and Grandal was blocked by Mes. Those guys would not be helping us."

Bull. While it may be true that Alonso is blocked by Votto, he showed what he could do last year and just because he's blocked in our system, that doesn't decrease his market value. If it does, this organization needs to adopt a firm "draft to needs" approach rather than simply taking the BPA. It's stupid to take a blocked BPA if you're just going to sell him off at 40 cents on the dollar. As for Grandal, Mesoraco hasn't proven anything yet at the ML level and there is no question Grandal could have surpassed him. If we take the tack that Mes was blocking him as gospel, then the above scenario applies as they drafted him knowing they had the best catching prospect in baseball on board already.

When a catcher of Grandals potential you take him even if you have Mesco in your system because you do what the Reds did, you trade him to get what you need and lack. Why is that hard to grasp?

[5TimeWSChamps]

If you take this year's stats out of the equation and look at Latos & Gio going into this year I would want Latos. He is 2 years younger, already acclimated to pitching in the NL, and has more years of club control. Yes Gio's strong 1st half makes Latos look inferior but equating that is armchair quarterbacking. Most of this board community acknowledged that we gave up a lot for Latos but would live with it because we needed another starting pitcher for the rotation we could count on for several years. With there being off season questions regarding Bailey & Arroyo pulling the trigger on Latos made sense and I supported the move.

An objective view shows Volquez is still suffering the same control problems, Alonso is not hitting any better than guys we kept, & Grandal/Boxberger are still just cracking the major league roster. Meanwhile Latos has had 1 problem in his transition, giving up more home runs (15 this year vs. 16 each in 2010/2011). He just needs to focus on keeping his fastball in the lower half of the strike zone. When he has done that he is almost unhittable. The games he is on you see the dominating skills he possesses.

I would prefer to have Chapman in the rotation also but not at Latos' expense. If anyone's spot is tenuous it is Mike Leake but that is another discussion. Jocketty should be given credit for being aggressive in the off season and we should reserve judgement until this season's results are in. Remember we are in 1st place & 4 1/2 games ahead of our main rival.

Good post

[PumpFak3First]

LOL @ Maker_84 saying he doesn't have a loser mentality like 90% of us on here. All of your posts wreak of a person who is a lifetime loser.

That's a clown comment bro!

[Falcon7]

Good throw JB.

[realistic]

good ole Volquez has already walked 4 through 2 and 2/3 already tonight allowed 3 runs on 2 hits

id rather have ANYONE than that frustration on this team

[BluegrassRedleg]

And ask him what their thought process was in targeting Latos over Gio Gonzalez.

Because this trade is on the verge of turning into Paul O'Neill for Roberto Kelly bad.

In all fairness, Roberto Kelly never stunk it up like this. He doesn't deserve that. :p

[brm7675]

In all fairness, Roberto Kelly never stunk it up like this. He doesn't deserve that. :p

How has Latos "stunk it up"?

[CrosleyField]

I think we gave up one player too much. I have said that many times. Would you rather have Volquez to kick around. He certainly didn't get it done either.

[Red Buckeye]

How has Latos "stunk it up"?

Well most would say and E.R.A of 5.20 isn't exactly tearing it up.

Pretty stinky so far, but I'm certainly not ready to give up on him.

[brm7675]

Well most would say and E.R.A of 5.20 isn't exactly tearing it up.

Pretty stinky so far, but I'm certainly not ready to give up on him.

He for sure has had a few stinker outings, which has caused the high ERA, but in no way as a pitcher is he a stinker..and to me there is a huge difference.

[Red Buckeye]

And I really don't remember Latos having any "great" games up this point. A couple quality starts if I recall but no excellent starts.
No question he's been a huge disappointment so far.

[brm7675]

And I really don't remember Latos having any "great" games up this point. A couple quality starts if I recall but no excellent starts.
No question he's been a huge disappointment so far.

I think some folks "expectations" were maybe just a bit to high...

[The Rage]

Latos's game logs over the last 2 season:

4.0 20 8 7 7 3 0 4 9.00 0.00 6.75 .385 26.3 % 50.0 % 50.0 % 15.75 10.81 3.21
2012-06-13 CIN CLE 1 1 0 0 0 0 7.0 29 7 2 2 0 1 7 9.00 1.29 0.00 .333 75.0 % 50.0 % 0.0 % 2.57 1.48 2.51
2012-06-08 CIN DET 1 0 0 0 0 0 6.1 27 7 4 3 1 2 3 4.26 2.84 1.42 .300 69.8 % 45.0 % 14.3 % 4.26 5.58 5.12
2012-06-02 CIN @HOU 1 0 0 0 0 0 3.1 19 7 7 4 1 1 5 13.50 2.70 2.70 .500 15.2 % 50.0 % 25.0 % 10.80 4.86 2.68
2012-05-27 CIN COL 1 1 0 0 0 0 7.1 27 5 5 5 5 0 3 3.68 0.00 6.14 .000 100.0 % 45.8 % 45.5 % 6.14 11.10 4.39
2012-05-22 CIN ATL 1 1 0 0 0 0 7.0 26 5 2 2 1 1 8 10.29 1.29 1.29 .250 87.0 % 23.5 % 8.3 % 2.57 3.06 3.66
2012-05-17 CIN @NYM 1 0 0 0 0 0 5.0 25 7 3 3 0 3 7 12.60 5.40 0.00 .467 70.0 % 21.4 % 0.0 % 5.40 2.06 3.78
2012-05-12 CIN WSN 1 0 0 0 0 0 5.0 23 3 1 1 1 5 4 7.20 9.00 1.80 .154 100.0 % 38.5 % 16.7 % 1.80 7.06 6.18
2012-05-06 CIN @PIT 1 1 0 0 0 0 6.0 25 2 0 0 0 3 11 16.50 4.50 0.00 .200 100.0 % 40.0 % 0.0 % 0.00 1.39 2.11
2012-04-29 CIN HOU 1 0 0 0 0 0 6.1 28 10 5 5 2 0 4 5.68 0.00 2.84 .364 69.4 % 21.7 % 16.7 % 7.11 5.90 4.51
2012-04-24 CIN SFG 1 1 0 0 0 0 7.0 26 4 0 0 0 2 3 3.86 2.57 0.00 .190 100.0 % 55.0 % 0.0 % 0.00 3.06 4.29
2012-04-18 CIN @STL 1 0 1 0 0 0 5.2 27 9 8 8 1 3 6 9.53 4.76 1.59 .471 37.7 % 33.3 % 12.5 % 12.71 4.82 4.55
2012-04-12 CIN @WSN 1 0 0 0 0 0 5.0 23 5 2 2 0 3 1 1.80 5.40 0.00 .263 75.0 % 42.1 % 0.0 % 3.60 4.46 6.47
2012-04-07 CIN MIA 1 0 1 0 0 0 4.2 22 7 4 4 1 2 4 7.71 3.86 1.93 .400 65.8 % 50.0 % 20.0 % 7.71 5.41 4.17
2011-09-26 SDP CHC 1 1 0 0 0 0 7.0 24 2 0 0 0 1 9 11.57 1.29 0.00 .143 100.0 % 30.8 % 0.0 % 0.00 0.88 2.14
2011-09-20 SDP @COL 1 1 0 0 0 0 8.2 32 6 1 1 0 1 9 9.35 1.04 0.00 .273 85.7 % 57.1 % 0.0 % 1.04 1.29 2.16
2011-09-14 SDP @SFG 1 0 1 0 0 0 7.0 29 7 3 3 2 1 8 10.29 1.29 2.57 .278 96.2 % 50.0 % 25.0 % 3.86 4.88 2.60
2011-09-09 SDP @ARI 1 0 0 0 0 0 7.0 28 8 2 2 1 1 8 10.29 1.29 1.29 .389 92.1 % 36.8 % 14.3 % 2.57 3.03 2.42
2011-09-04 SDP COL 1 1 0 0 0 0 7.0 27 5 2 2 0 1 8 10.29 1.29 0.00 .278 66.7 % 38.9 % 0.0 % 2.57 1.17 2.25
2011-08-29 SDP @LAD 1 0 1 0 0 0 6.0 26 5 4 4 1 4 5 7.50 6.00 1.50 .250 65.8 % 47.1 % 20.0 % 6.00 5.53 4.41
2011-08-23 SDP @SFG 1 0 0 0 0 0 6.0 26 3 2 1 0 4 2 3.00 6.00 0.00 .150 71.4 % 57.9 % 0.0 % 1.50 4.36 6.03
2011-08-17 SDP NYM 1 0 1 0 0 0 6.0 25 4 3 3 1 2 6 9.00 3.00 1.50 .188 65.2 % 43.8 % 14.3 % 4.50 4.19 3.49
2011-08-12 SDP @CIN 1 0 0 0 0 0 7.0 26 4 2 2 0 1 5 6.43 1.29 0.00 .200 60.0 % 36.8 % 0.0 % 2.57 2.03 4.00
2011-08-07 SDP @PIT 1 1 0 0 0 0 7.0 25 4 2 2 0 1 7 9.00 1.29 0.00 .235 60.0 % 52.9 % 0.0 % 2.57 1.45 2.17
2011-08-02 SDP LAD 1 0 1 0 0 0 7.0 24 6 1 1 0 0 6 7.71 0.00 0.00 .333 83.3 % 58.8 % 0.0 % 1.29 1.31 1.85
2011-07-28 SDP ARI 1 0 0 0 0 0 5.1 24 4 3 3 1 4 7 11.81 6.75 1.69 .250 75.8 % 46.2 % 25.0 % 5.06 5.09 3.59
2011-07-23 SDP @PHI 1 0 0 0 0 0 6.0 25 5 3 3 1 2 7 10.50 3.00 1.50 .267 71.4 % 28.6 % 14.3 % 4.50 3.86 3.16
2011-07-17 SDP SFG 1 0 0 0 0 0 7.0 29 7 3 3 0 1 5 6.43 1.29 0.00 .304 62.5 % 56.5 % 0.0 % 3.86 2.03 3.28
2011-07-08 SDP @LAD 1 0 1 0 0 0 7.1 29 5 1 1 0 2 6 7.36 2.45 0.00 .238 85.7 % 36.8 % 0.0 % 1.23 2.21 3.41
2011-07-03 SDP @SEA 1 0 1 0 0 0 6.0 24 4 3 3 0 3 5 7.50 4.50 0.00 .250 57.1 % 18.8 % 0.0 % 4.50 2.86 4.74
2011-06-27 SDP KCR 1 1 0 0 0 0 6.0 27 7 3 3 0 2 6 9.00 3.00 0.00 .368 66.7 % 52.6 % 0.0 % 4.50 2.03 3.28
2011-06-21 SDP @BOS 1 0 0 0 0 0 5.2 29 10 4 4 0 4 8 12.71 6.35 0.00 .588 71.4 % 52.9 % 0.0 % 6.35 2.32 3.21
2011-06-15 SDP @COL 1 0 1 0 0 0 5.1 23 8 4 4 0 1 2 3.38 1.69 0.00 .400 55.6 % 26.3 % 0.0 % 6.75 2.84 4.96
2011-06-10 SDP WSN 1 0 1 0 0 0 6.0 22 4 2 2 1 2 6 9.00 3.00 1.50 .231 87.0 % 46.2 % 16.7 % 3.00 4.19 3.28
2011-06-05 SDP HOU 1 1 0 0 0 0 5.0 23 6 2 2 0 2 3 5.40 3.60 0.00 .333 75.0 % 33.3 % 0.0 % 3.60 3.03 4.78
2011-05-31 SDP @ATL 1 1 0 0 0 0 6.0 26 5 2 2 0 4 7 10.50 6.00 0.00 .333 77.8 % 33.3 % 0.0 % 3.00 2.69 3.95
2011-05-25 SDP STL 1 1 0 0 0 0 8.0 28 6 1 1 0 0 7 7.88 0.00 0.00 .286 83.3 % 45.0 % 0.0 % 1.13 1.28 2.53
2011-05-20 SDP SEA 1 0 1 0 0 0 6.0 27 8 4 4 1 1 4 6.00 1.50 1.50 .333 65.8 % 45.5 % 10.0 % 6.00 4.36 4.29
2011-05-15 SDP @COL 1 1 0 0 0 0 5.2 25 4 2 1 1 3 5 7.94 4.76 1.59 .188 89.3 % 46.7 % 14.3 % 1.59 5.14 4.40
2011-05-09 SDP @MIL 1 0 1 0 0 0 5.2 26 7 4 4 1 2 4 6.35 3.18 1.59 .316 65.8 % 30.0 % 8.3 % 6.35 4.97 5.33
2011-05-03 SDP PIT 1 0 0 0 0 0 6.0 23 5 2 2 0 2 5 7.50 3.00 0.00 .313 71.4 % 26.7 % 0.0 % 3.00 2.36 4.03
2011-04-27 SDP ATL 1 0 1 0 0 0 5.0 24 7 6 1 0 1 5 9.00 1.80 0.00 .389 25.0 % 44.4 % 0.0 % 1.80 1.63 3.89
2011-04-21 SDP PHI 1 0 1 0 0 0 4.1 24 4 3 3 2 5 7 14.54 10.38 4.15 .200 96.8 % 41.7 % 33.3 % 6.23 9.26 5.00
2011-04-16 SDP @HOU 1 0 1 0 0 0 6.1 25 4 5 5 1 2 6 8.53 2.84 1.42 .188 21.7 % 52.9 % 14.3 % 7.11 4.13 3.47
2011-04-11 SDP CIN 1 0 1 0 0 0 6.0 24 4 3 3 2 2

[5TimeWSChamps]

LOL @ me.

Let me have it

[realistic]

bump

[joshua]

I'm off the Latos band wagon. The kid doesn't have the mental ability to become the top of the rotation starter we traded the farm for. Stuff? There. Control? Meh. Mental ability? Noooope.

I wish more than anything we still had Grandal on the team. Having a switch hitter would be awesome and exactly what this team needs. ****.

I would like to quote this and point out how very wrong I was.

Except about Grandal. Everything I said about Latos was crap and an obvious example of why no major league club would hire me to do player analysis.

[CaliBuck]

Latos is quickly turning into my favorite pitcher on the Reds

[5TimeWSChamps]

Thank God I only post on here :lol:

[Red Buckeye]

5TimeWSChamps, I don't hold you on a podium and say how wrong you were.

You were right at the time, Latos stank early in the season. But he's awesome now, and Walt looks like a genious.

[mattfeet]

Latos is quickly turning into my favorite pitcher on the Reds

Same here. Dude has a passion that burns very very hot.

[P.E.R#14]

So many wasted keystrokes!


Go Reds!! Go Latos!!

[smixsell]

Love Latos.

PS I think his extreme focus and intensity has helped show some of the others pitchers on our staff "how it is done" and has been factor in on the improvement of our whole staff.

[Boston Red]

Gio Gonzalez is obviously damned good as well. Turns out you couldn't really go wrong either way (assuming Gio could have been had in the first place for the same price).

[HalMorrisRules]

In an article written last week about Hanigan, Latos pretty much said that one of the reasons why he struggled early was because he was not allowing himself to get on the same page as Hanigan, not trusting Ryan. Eventually he came to just rely upon Hanigan and thats when the turnaround happened. Hanigan gets love from the Reds fans but nationally, people just do not have a clue what kind of influence Hanigan has on this pitching staff and the confidence they have in him.