From MLBTradeRomors

[Red Raindog]

Reds skipper Dusty Baker isn't sure if the club will ask him to return for next season but he sounds like he'd be ready to move on to another team if the opportunity isn't there, writes Ken Rosenthal of FOX Sports. “At this point in my career, this point in the season, I have as much say about it as the organization does. And that’s not sounding cocky or arrogant," Baker said.

===

I have no comment

[IamRV]

Reds skipper Dusty Baker isn't sure if the club will ask him to return for next season but he sounds like he'd be ready to move on to another team if the opportunity isn't there,

You can tell him I said the feeling's mutual.

[EMAW]

If this message board is a fair representation of the behavior and attitudes of Cincinnati, I do not blame Dusty for moving on. This team was crap when he arrived and whether people admit it or not, they have certainly prospered and improved with him in the dugout. For all the improvement all he gets it grief and in some cases total hate.

[malcontent]

Reds skipper Dusty Baker isn't sure if the club will ask him to return for next season but he sounds like he'd be ready to move on to another team if the opportunity isn't there, writes Ken Rosenthal of FOX Sports. “At this point in my career, this point in the season, I have as much say about it as the organization does. And that’s not sounding cocky or arrogant," Baker said.

===

I have no comment
I don't know how he does it . Dude must be a shrink or something.

One second I think I want to run him outta town on a rail. The next second I don't want him to skip out of town on us!

:sarcasm:

[Red Raindog]

I don't know how he does it . Dude must be a shrink or something.

One second I think I want to run him outta town on a rail. The next second I don't want him to skip out of town on us!

:sarcasm:

glad you put the bit at the end -- I was thinking straight jacket for you

[malcontent]

glad you put the bit at the end -- I was thinking straight jacket for you
I'll need one if he gets extended.

[New York Red]

If this message board is a fair representation of the behavior and attitudes of Cincinnati, I do not blame Dusty for moving on. This team was crap when he arrived and whether people admit it or not, they have certainly prospered and improved with him in the dugout. For all the improvement all he gets it grief and in some cases total hate.
The improvement is due to the Reds organization doing a better job of drafting and developing players. The problem is once they get to the ML level they rarely improve. There's no adjustments made and no rhyme or reason to the way they go about things. That's entirely on Dusty. Where would this team be without the great pitching they've gotten? Probably in fifth place in our division. Hopefully this will be Dusty's last year in Cincinnati.

[EMAW]

The improvement is due to the Reds organization doing a better job of drafting and developing players. The problem is once they get to the ML level they rarely improve. There's no adjustments made and no rhyme or reason to the way they go about things. That's entirely on Dusty. Where would this team be without the great pitching they've gotten? Probably in fifth place in our division. Hopefully this will be Dusty's last year in Cincinnati.

Dusty must be the luckiest guy ever. Takes over a bad Giants team and they are instantly good. Takes over a terrible Cubs team, they have their best season in a long, long time. Takes over the Reds, guides them to their first post season in a long time. What a lucky guy, amazing.

[RedsFanInBama]

Dusty's a good, solid manager and won't have trouble finding work if he wants it.

[BluegrassRedleg]

Johnny Ringo quote comes to mind here...

[EMAW]

Dusty's a good, solid manager and won't have trouble finding work if he wants it.

Any chance at all that he returns to the Reds?
It seems to me if they are certain they do not want him, might as well fire him now and bring in the new guy?

[Kingspoint]

they have certainly prospered and improved with him in the dugout. Not in the least bit. Any winning they've done has been in spite of him.

[Kingspoint]

Dusty must be the luckiest guy ever. Takes over a bad Giants team and they are instantly good. Takes over a terrible Cubs team, they have their best season in a long, long time. Takes over the Reds, guides them to their first post season in a long time. What a lucky guy, amazing.Your history recall is chalk full of holes. He didn't take over a bad Giants team. That team was loaded with quality players in their prime.

[RedsFanInBama]

Any chance at all that he returns to the Reds?
It seems to me if they are certain they do not want him, might as well fire him now and bring in the new guy?

That's just not going to happen. This team is the playoff chase right now. Does it look like a World Series team? No, but the playoffs are as much about who is hot at the end of the year as it is who the "best team" is, so he will still be here as long as the Reds are alive. If the Reds miss the playoffs, he will not be back IMO. If the Reds advance to the NLCS, he will be asked back IMO. If they lose in the division series or in that wild card game, it will be interesting to see what happens.

This team is built to win now, though. So if you remove Dusty, you need to be prepared to hire a top-notch manager do get that done.

[Kingspoint]

It seems to me if they are certain they do not want him, might as well fire him now and bring in the new guy?What would that accomplish? He's been given great money to Manage this team for many seasons and hasn't done anything to deserve being fired. He just doesn't need to be hired for a third time. Two stints was enough.

[Kingspoint]

The improvement is due to the Reds organization doing a better job of drafting and developing players. And, a stellar job the last three G.M.'s have done, and ownership, too, since Lindner left.

[RedsFanInBama]

Your history recall is chalk full of holes. He didn't take over a bad Giants team. That team was loaded with quality players in their prime.

Well, they may not have been a bad team, but they lost a hell of a lot of games in the couple of years before his arrival. So call it what you want. But they got a whole lot better when he got there. Now, they also got Barry Bonds that same year.

I think Dusty has his obvious weaknesses which have been played out on this board more times than I care to state. I also think there is more to managing than simply putting a lineup card together. I'd argue that managing personalities and a clubhouse is every bit as important - if not more so - than writing out a nice lineup card. Dusty is obviously very good at the latter, and that is why his teams generally win more than they lose.

[Kingspoint]

I also think there is more to managing than simply putting a lineup card together. I'd argue that managing personalities and a clubhouse is every bit as important - if not more so - than writing out a nice lineup card. Agree 100%. The lineup card is very minimal, but there are certain things where you can implode a team internally (such as batting guys #1 and #2 who can't get on base). There's psychology involved in the lineup as much as anything. What's the first thing a player does when he has a chance to do it? He checks the lineup card to see if he's in the lineup and where he's batting, and who's batting in a place where he feels someone else, or himself should be. Most people love their teammates, but winning comes first, and you can't keep seeing your own team suffer because of a guy being given preferential treatment when he doesn't deserve it.

[BurgervilleBuck]

I think Dusty has helped turned the players' attitudes around. They now think they can compete every night. However, I also think that Dusty has done all he can with his abilities and it's time to move on. I won't say he doesn't frustrate me. And there are many nights he has me scratching my head. However, I don't think he gets as much credit as he should. He's been a good manager. Maybe it's time for a great manager.

[Kingspoint]

I think Dusty has helped turned the players' attitudes around. They now think they can compete every night. However, I also think that Dusty has done all he can with his abilities and it's time to move on. I won't say he doesn't frustrate me. And there are many nights he has me scratching my head. However, I don't think he gets as much credit as he should. He's been a good manager. Maybe it's time for a great manager.There's a million things that Dusty has done right that I've defended him on where others have berated him for it. I've praised him for changing how he does things in many ways at times, as slow as it may be....he's very stubborn and has a hard time admitting he's wrong, but sometimes he does. That said, the bads outweigh the goods, especially with a guy like Rick Sweet available.

[RedsFanInBama]

Agree 100%. The lineup card is very minimal, but there are certain things where you can implode a team internally (such as batting guys #1 and #2 who can't get on base). There's psychology involved in the lineup as much as anything. What's the first thing a player does when he has a chance to do it? He checks the lineup card to see if he's in the lineup and where he's batting, and who's batting in a place where he feels someone else, or himself should be. Most people love their teammates, but winning comes first, and you can't keep seeing your own team suffer because of a guy being given preferential treatment when he doesn't deserve it.

I don't disagree, but I think this team is past that point. That's the kind of thing that happens when a team is in fourth place in the division at this point in the year, not in first place.

Any significant lineup changes for this season are in Walt's hands IMO. They will happen only if we have different players. Unless that happens (or an injury) we're going to keep riding this lineup. So hopefully he can get something done.

[EMAW]

Your history recall is chalk full of holes. He didn't take over a bad Giants team. That team was loaded with quality players in their prime.

Yes, so good:confused: that they lost 90 games the previous season

[PumpFak3First]

Told you guys Dusty just says stuff, ultimate troll

[cooperlamar]

(Larussa)

[DocRed]

Let's hope Jocketty and Castellini finally got a clue...

[The Rage]

Baker will get a 3 year extension.

[Ironman92]

Any chance at all that he returns to the Reds?
It seems to me if they are certain they do not want him, might as well fire him now and bring in the new guy?

Might as well but Dusty is a good guy and deserves to at least ride this season out.

[Ironman92]

Yes, so good:confused: that they lost 90 games the previous season

You're better than that.

They also added a guy Dusty's first year. His name was Barry and he was decent.

[New York Red]

You have to give Dusty credit for the way he was able to get Barry Bonds to muscle up.

[The Rage]

You have to give Dusty credit for the way he was able to get Barry Bonds to muscle up.

Dusty picks his culture well.

[Kingspoint]

Yes, so good:confused: that they lost 90 games the previous seasonThe year after Dusty got there, the Giants finished with a .478 record. The year after that a .465 record. The year after that a .420 record. See a trend here? Dusty was such a great manager that they kept getting worse with terrible records.

And, as far as the first team he took over in 1993, he had....exactly as I said....took over a team of very good players, all in their prime.

Will Clark was 29.
Matt Williams was 27. (38 HR's, 110 RBI's, 104 Runs)
Barry Bonds was 27 and on steroids. (46 HR's, .336 AVG, 1.136 OPS)
Willie McGee batted .301 w/ a .353 OBP while playing great defense.
Robby Thompson batted .312 w/ a .375 OBP and .495 SLG while playing great Defense.
Darren Lewis at age 25 played great Defense in CF while getting 46 SB's.
Royce Clayton age 23 played great Defense at SS while batting .282 w/ a .331 OBP.
Kirt Manwaring was age 27 while Catching in 130 games and batting .275 w/ a .345 OBP.
Mark Carreon was a 4th Outfielder at age 29 who batted .327 with a .373 OBP and .540 SLG.

Because everyone was at their prime ages, there was a lot of team speed and great defense. Bonds also stole 29 bases while three others stole at least 10 bases.

Other bench players were Dave Martinez, age 28, Todd Benzinger, Age 30 w/ a .783 OPS, Jeff Reed at Catcher w/ a .784 OPS.



And then there was the pitching...

Billy Swift, age 31, w/ a 2.82 ERA and 231 IP and a 1.074 WHIP.
John Burkett, age 28 w/ a 22-7 record and 232 IP and a 1.140 WHIP.

Those were two horses, while the great Rod Beck, age 23, had 48 Saves and a 0.882 WHIP in 76 games. Think Dusty rode his pitchers? Two guys w/ 230 Innings and a closer whom he used in almost half of the games.

28 year old Michael Jackson was used in half the games, 81 total, and he had a WHIP of 1.060. 3 games in a row for Chapman? No problem. He'll use him again tomorrow if there's a save situation.

Trevor Wilson was 27, 3.60 ERA in 18 starts.

Dave Burba was 28, with a 10-3 mark in 5 starts and a lot of long relief.

Kevin Rogers was 24 with a 2.68 ERA in 64 games.

Jeff Brantley was 29 with 12 starts and 9 finishes.

Bud Black was 36, but managed a 3.60 ERA in 16 starts.



Dusty happened to be in the right place at the right time, and then promptly turned a 103 win team into losers three years in a row, even with the steroided Barry Bonds at the top of his game. What was the biggest reason for them losing so badly so quickly? Everyone's On-Base Percentage dropped by an average of about 40 points. Sound familiar? Think Drew Stubbs. Once Baker leaves (and Jacoby and Speir, too....anyone who thinks Baker is a good Manager), Stubbs will become the player we thought he'd be.

Seriously, can't wait until Dusty Baker hits the dust. He just horrible for the organization. Don't want to see him do any more damage to the young guys, Cozart, Stubbs, Frazier, Heisey, and Bruce. They need Rick Sweet, who handled them so well in AAA, being their teacher/coach in the majors. Watch and see if Janish doesn't all of a sudden learn how to hit in Atlanta.

[Red Raindog]

The year after Dusty got there, the Giants finished with a .478 record. The year after that a .465 record. The year after that a .420 record. See a trend here? Dusty was such a great manager that they kept getting worse with terrible records.

And, as far as the first team he took over in 1993, he had....exactly as I said....took over a team of very good players, all in their prime.

Will Clark was 29.
Matt Williams was 27. (38 HR's, 110 RBI's, 104 Runs)
Barry Bonds was 27 and on steroids. (46 HR's, .336 AVG, 1.136 OPS)
Willie McGee batted .301 w/ a .353 OBP while playing great defense.
Robby Thompson batted .312 w/ a .375 OBP and .495 SLG while playing great Defense.
Darren Lewis at age 25 played great Defense in CF while getting 46 SB's.
Royce Clayton age 23 played great Defense at SS while batting .282 w/ a .331 OBP.
Kirt Manwaring was age 27 while Catching in 130 games and batting .275 w/ a .345 OBP.
Mark Carreon was a 4th Outfielder at age 29 who batted .327 with a .373 OBP and .540 SLG.

Because everyone was at their prime ages, there was a lot of team speed and great defense. Bonds also stole 29 bases while three others stole at least 10 bases.

Other bench players were Dave Martinez, age 28, Todd Benzinger, Age 30 w/ a .783 OPS, Jeff Reed at Catcher w/ a .784 OPS.



And then there was the pitching...

Billy Swift, age 31, w/ a 2.82 ERA and 231 IP and a 1.074 WHIP.
John Burkett, age 28 w/ a 22-7 record and 232 IP and a 1.140 WHIP.

Those were two horses, while the great Rod Beck, age 23, had 48 Saves and a 0.882 WHIP in 76 games. Think Dusty rode his pitchers? Two guys w/ 230 Innings and a closer whom he used in almost half of the games.

28 year old Michael Jackson was used in half the games, 81 total, and he had a WHIP of 1.060. 3 games in a row for Chapman? No problem. He'll use him again tomorrow if there's a save situation.

Trevor Wilson was 27, 3.60 ERA in 18 starts.

Dave Burba was 28, with a 10-3 mark in 5 starts and a lot of long relief.

Kevin Rogers was 24 with a 2.68 ERA in 64 games.

Jeff Brantley was 29 with 12 starts and 9 finishes.

Bud Black was 36, but managed a 3.60 ERA in 16 starts.



Dusty happened to be in the right place at the right time, and then promptly turned a 103 win team into losers three years in a row, even with the steroided Barry Bonds at the top of his game. What was the biggest reason for them losing so badly so quickly? Everyone's On-Base Percentage dropped by an average of about 40 points. Sound familiar? Think Drew Stubbs. Once Baker leaves (and Jacoby and Speir, too....anyone who thinks Baker is a good Manager), Stubbs will become the player we thought he'd be.

Seriously, can't wait until Dusty Baker hits the dust. He just horrible for the organization. Don't want to see him do any more damage to the young guys, Cozart, Stubbs, Frazier, Heisey, and Bruce. They need Rick Sweet, who handled them so well in AAA, being their teacher/coach in the majors. Watch and see if Janish doesn't all of a sudden learn how to hit in Atlanta.

good job

[Todd Gack]

Yes, so good:confused: that they lost 90 games the previous season

So when they win 90 this season, it'll be in spite of him. Got it.

[Ironman92]

The year after Dusty got there, the Giants finished with a .478 record. The year after that a .465 record. The year after that a .420 record. See a trend here? Dusty was such a great manager that they kept getting worse with terrible records.

And, as far as the first team he took over in 1993, he had....exactly as I said....took over a team of very good players, all in their prime.

Will Clark was 29.
Matt Williams was 27. (38 HR's, 110 RBI's, 104 Runs)
Barry Bonds was 27 and on steroids. (46 HR's, .336 AVG, 1.136 OPS)
Willie McGee batted .301 w/ a .353 OBP while playing great defense.
Robby Thompson batted .312 w/ a .375 OBP and .495 SLG while playing great Defense.
Darren Lewis at age 25 played great Defense in CF while getting 46 SB's.
Royce Clayton age 23 played great Defense at SS while batting .282 w/ a .331 OBP.
Kirt Manwaring was age 27 while Catching in 130 games and batting .275 w/ a .345 OBP.
Mark Carreon was a 4th Outfielder at age 29 who batted .327 with a .373 OBP and .540 SLG.

Because everyone was at their prime ages, there was a lot of team speed and great defense. Bonds also stole 29 bases while three others stole at least 10 bases.

Other bench players were Dave Martinez, age 28, Todd Benzinger, Age 30 w/ a .783 OPS, Jeff Reed at Catcher w/ a .784 OPS.



And then there was the pitching...

Billy Swift, age 31, w/ a 2.82 ERA and 231 IP and a 1.074 WHIP.
John Burkett, age 28 w/ a 22-7 record and 232 IP and a 1.140 WHIP.

Those were two horses, while the great Rod Beck, age 23, had 48 Saves and a 0.882 WHIP in 76 games. Think Dusty rode his pitchers? Two guys w/ 230 Innings and a closer whom he used in almost half of the games.

28 year old Michael Jackson was used in half the games, 81 total, and he had a WHIP of 1.060. 3 games in a row for Chapman? No problem. He'll use him again tomorrow if there's a save situation.

Trevor Wilson was 27, 3.60 ERA in 18 starts.

Dave Burba was 28, with a 10-3 mark in 5 starts and a lot of long relief.

Kevin Rogers was 24 with a 2.68 ERA in 64 games.

Jeff Brantley was 29 with 12 starts and 9 finishes.

Bud Black was 36, but managed a 3.60 ERA in 16 starts.



Dusty happened to be in the right place at the right time, and then promptly turned a 103 win team into losers three years in a row, even with the steroided Barry Bonds at the top of his game. What was the biggest reason for them losing so badly so quickly? Everyone's On-Base Percentage dropped by an average of about 40 points. Sound familiar? Think Drew Stubbs. Once Baker leaves (and Jacoby and Speir, too....anyone who thinks Baker is a good Manager), Stubbs will become the player we thought he'd be.

Seriously, can't wait until Dusty Baker hits the dust. He just horrible for the organization. Don't want to see him do any more damage to the young guys, Cozart, Stubbs, Frazier, Heisey, and Bruce. They need Rick Sweet, who handled them so well in AAA, being their teacher/coach in the majors. Watch and see if Janish doesn't all of a sudden learn how to hit in Atlanta.

Solid...but I don't believe Bonds used until several years later. He was a two time MVP before his first year in SF. Bonds was a 3 time MVP by 1993.....then all of these other guys started ballooning up and taking his limelight. Wasn't it 1996 or 1997 when Barry Bonds took down the gigantic McGwire in the derby? Bonds was very proud as a very normal sized player taking down the monster.

Bonds was the best player in the game when he went to SF....and was just starting his prime age years. Bonds didn't start ballooning until 1999 or 2000. Then you saw what he did....he was off-the-charts. No one on the roids was even close to him.

[IamRV]

The year after Dusty got there, the Giants finished with a .478 record. The year after that a .465 record. The year after that a .420 record. See a trend here? Dusty was such a great manager that they kept getting worse with terrible records.

And, as far as the first team he took over in 1993, he had....exactly as I said....took over a team of very good players, all in their prime.

Will Clark was 29.
Matt Williams was 27. (38 HR's, 110 RBI's, 104 Runs)
Barry Bonds was 27 and on steroids. (46 HR's, .336 AVG, 1.136 OPS)
Willie McGee batted .301 w/ a .353 OBP while playing great defense.
Robby Thompson batted .312 w/ a .375 OBP and .495 SLG while playing great Defense.
Darren Lewis at age 25 played great Defense in CF while getting 46 SB's.
Royce Clayton age 23 played great Defense at SS while batting .282 w/ a .331 OBP.
Kirt Manwaring was age 27 while Catching in 130 games and batting .275 w/ a .345 OBP.
Mark Carreon was a 4th Outfielder at age 29 who batted .327 with a .373 OBP and .540 SLG.

Because everyone was at their prime ages, there was a lot of team speed and great defense. Bonds also stole 29 bases while three others stole at least 10 bases.

Other bench players were Dave Martinez, age 28, Todd Benzinger, Age 30 w/ a .783 OPS, Jeff Reed at Catcher w/ a .784 OPS.



And then there was the pitching...

Billy Swift, age 31, w/ a 2.82 ERA and 231 IP and a 1.074 WHIP.
John Burkett, age 28 w/ a 22-7 record and 232 IP and a 1.140 WHIP.

Those were two horses, while the great Rod Beck, age 23, had 48 Saves and a 0.882 WHIP in 76 games. Think Dusty rode his pitchers? Two guys w/ 230 Innings and a closer whom he used in almost half of the games.

28 year old Michael Jackson was used in half the games, 81 total, and he had a WHIP of 1.060. 3 games in a row for Chapman? No problem. He'll use him again tomorrow if there's a save situation.

Trevor Wilson was 27, 3.60 ERA in 18 starts.

Dave Burba was 28, with a 10-3 mark in 5 starts and a lot of long relief.

Kevin Rogers was 24 with a 2.68 ERA in 64 games.

Jeff Brantley was 29 with 12 starts and 9 finishes.

Bud Black was 36, but managed a 3.60 ERA in 16 starts.



Dusty happened to be in the right place at the right time, and then promptly turned a 103 win team into losers three years in a row, even with the steroided Barry Bonds at the top of his game. What was the biggest reason for them losing so badly so quickly? Everyone's On-Base Percentage dropped by an average of about 40 points. Sound familiar? Think Drew Stubbs. Once Baker leaves (and Jacoby and Speir, too....anyone who thinks Baker is a good Manager), Stubbs will become the player we thought he'd be.

Seriously, can't wait until Dusty Baker hits the dust. He just horrible for the organization. Don't want to see him do any more damage to the young guys, Cozart, Stubbs, Frazier, Heisey, and Bruce. They need Rick Sweet, who handled them so well in AAA, being their teacher/coach in the majors. Watch and see if Janish doesn't all of a sudden learn how to hit in Atlanta.

Hammer - meet nail. :thumbup:

[Todd Gack]

The year after Dusty got there, the Giants finished with a .478 record. The year after that a .465 record. The year after that a .420 record. See a trend here? Dusty was such a great manager that they kept getting worse with terrible records.

And, as far as the first team he took over in 1993, he had....exactly as I said....took over a team of very good players, all in their prime.

Will Clark was 29.
Matt Williams was 27. (38 HR's, 110 RBI's, 104 Runs)
Barry Bonds was 27 and on steroids. (46 HR's, .336 AVG, 1.136 OPS)
Willie McGee batted .301 w/ a .353 OBP while playing great defense.
Robby Thompson batted .312 w/ a .375 OBP and .495 SLG while playing great Defense.
Darren Lewis at age 25 played great Defense in CF while getting 46 SB's.
Royce Clayton age 23 played great Defense at SS while batting .282 w/ a .331 OBP.
Kirt Manwaring was age 27 while Catching in 130 games and batting .275 w/ a .345 OBP.
Mark Carreon was a 4th Outfielder at age 29 who batted .327 with a .373 OBP and .540 SLG.

Because everyone was at their prime ages, there was a lot of team speed and great defense. Bonds also stole 29 bases while three others stole at least 10 bases.

Other bench players were Dave Martinez, age 28, Todd Benzinger, Age 30 w/ a .783 OPS, Jeff Reed at Catcher w/ a .784 OPS.



And then there was the pitching...

Billy Swift, age 31, w/ a 2.82 ERA and 231 IP and a 1.074 WHIP.
John Burkett, age 28 w/ a 22-7 record and 232 IP and a 1.140 WHIP.

Those were two horses, while the great Rod Beck, age 23, had 48 Saves and a 0.882 WHIP in 76 games. Think Dusty rode his pitchers? Two guys w/ 230 Innings and a closer whom he used in almost half of the games.

28 year old Michael Jackson was used in half the games, 81 total, and he had a WHIP of 1.060. 3 games in a row for Chapman? No problem. He'll use him again tomorrow if there's a save situation.

Trevor Wilson was 27, 3.60 ERA in 18 starts.

Dave Burba was 28, with a 10-3 mark in 5 starts and a lot of long relief.

Kevin Rogers was 24 with a 2.68 ERA in 64 games.

Jeff Brantley was 29 with 12 starts and 9 finishes.

Bud Black was 36, but managed a 3.60 ERA in 16 starts.



Dusty happened to be in the right place at the right time, and then promptly turned a 103 win team into losers three years in a row, even with the steroided Barry Bonds at the top of his game. What was the biggest reason for them losing so badly so quickly? Everyone's On-Base Percentage dropped by an average of about 40 points. Sound familiar? Think Drew Stubbs. Once Baker leaves (and Jacoby and Speir, too....anyone who thinks Baker is a good Manager), Stubbs will become the player we thought he'd be.

Seriously, can't wait until Dusty Baker hits the dust. He just horrible for the organization. Don't want to see him do any more damage to the young guys, Cozart, Stubbs, Frazier, Heisey, and Bruce. They need Rick Sweet, who handled them so well in AAA, being their teacher/coach in the majors. Watch and see if Janish doesn't all of a sudden learn how to hit in Atlanta.

So who in the world would you deem be a 'great' manager?

[IamRV]

So who in the world would you deem be a 'great' manager?

I would think a great manager, at the very least, would know how to make out a lineup card to maximize the talent at hand. That disqualifies some managers we know immediately.

[EMAW]

The haters will continue to hate Dusty no matter what he does. Dusty is comfortable in his own skin, a lot of the haters do not like that skin. First place team and all people do is gripe about the manager, these "fans" deserve Bob Boone, Buddy Bell and Tony Muser.

[IamRV]

The haters will continue to hate Dusty no matter what he does. Dusty is comfortable in his own skin, a lot of the haters do not like that skin.

Now people that don't think Dusty is a good manager are racists? That takes the cake!

You guys will grasp at any straw and that's absolutely despicable!

[malcontent]

Now people that don't think Dusty is a good manager are racists? That takes the cake!

You guys will grasp at any straw and that's absolutely despicable!
EMAW was right and I, for one, will admit it.

Baker is much too thin-skinned.

[EMAW]

A whole lot of the hatred is because of race, no doubt about it

[Jefferson24]

A whole lot of the hatred is because of race, no doubt about it

When I think of baseball players and managers I put them into 3 categories.

Reds
Ex Reds
Non Reds

Other than Red, color has nothing to do with it. I really don't think that Dusty's race is the reason so many want him gone, there are plenty of other reasons for it.

[Stray]

Dusty is the luckiest man alive. Not only is he terrible at his job, through good timing and good fortune he's been able to keep a coaching job for over 20 years! If that 20 years wasn't impressive enough, everywhere he's gone has been prime for a turnaround as soon as he arrived (which makes it look like he's good since he's won everywhere he's been). Because of all of this good fortune he has a .500+ winning percentage and ranks among the all time managerial greats in wins.

That Dusty Baker, one lucky son of a gun.

[EMAW]

Back to another point, if it is so clear that Dusty is so bad and hindering this team, just pay him off and give Sweet (if he is as great as the Sweetaholics think) the job and the Reds will win this thing with ease.

[EMAW]

Dusty is the luckiest man alive. Not only is he terrible at his job, through good timing and good fortune he's been able to keep a coaching job for over 20 years! If that 20 years wasn't impressive enough, everywhere he's gone has been prime for a turnaround as soon as he arrived (which makes it look like he's good since he's won everywhere he's been). Because of all of this good fortune he has a .500+ winning percentage and ranks among the all time managerial greats in wins.

That Dusty Baker, one lucky son of a gun.

WOW

[Stray]

A whole lot of the hatred is because of race, no doubt about it

I'm sure it's like that for some, but I doubt that's a big reason for most.

I think it has more to do with all of the crazy stats that are readily available to anyone with a computer and internet connection. It's like it's turned baseball fans into a bunch of managers. Everyone thinks they can do a better job than him, every good move he makes is chalked up to dumb luck, and every bad move is a reason he's incompetent. He's truly in a no win situation with a large portion of our fanbase.

[Stray]

WOW

In case you couldn't pick it up, that was dripping in sarcasm.

[Ironman92]

A whole lot of the hatred is because of race, no doubt about it

Link?

[malcontent]

Baker's record with Reds:

372-364 .505

[Todd Gack]

I would think a great manager, at the very least, would know how to make out a lineup card to maximize the talent at hand. That disqualifies some managers we know immediately.

Has Dusty somehow been penalized or forgotten to write a lineup card during his tenure?

I just want Kingspoint or someone to point to any team in any year that won or lost in the World Series of a manager who they thought was great. I don't care, draw a name out of hat if you have to.

[IamRV]

A whole lot of the hatred is because of race, no doubt about it

I've found projection is an informative instrument.

[IamRV]

Has Dusty somehow been penalized or forgotten to write a lineup card during his tenure?


I really doubt that but then you know that's not what I said. Typical deflection.

[Todd Gack]

I really doubt that but then you know that's not what I said. Typical deflection.

What deflection? I never realized lineup construction was so scientific. I'm sure we'd have a better record than the Yanks/Rangers had we only had a better lineup construction.

Also, I want Kingspoint or someone to name any manager from any team that has played in a World Series. Preferably in the last 50 years or so.

[Ironman92]

Chuck Tanner

[Ironman92]

Tom Kelly

[Ironman92]

Jack McKeon Marlins

[smixsell]

If this message board is a fair representation of the behavior and attitudes of Cincinnati, I do not blame Dusty for moving on. This team was crap when he arrived and whether people admit it or not, they have certainly prospered and improved with him in the dugout. For all the improvement all he gets it grief and in some cases total hate.

I don't blame him either. In fact I encourage him to do it. :) PLEASE, move on Dusty, move on! :) :thumbup:

[smixsell]

The improvement is due to the Reds organization doing a better job of drafting and developing players. The problem is once they get to the ML level they rarely improve. There's no adjustments made and no rhyme or reason to the way they go about things. That's entirely on Dusty. Where would this team be without the great pitching they've gotten? Probably in fifth place in our division. Hopefully this will be Dusty's last year in Cincinnati.

Spot on. Nailed it!

[smixsell]

The year after Dusty got there, the Giants finished with a .478 record. The year after that a .465 record. The year after that a .420 record. See a trend here? Dusty was such a great manager that they kept getting worse with terrible records.

And, as far as the first team he took over in 1993, he had....exactly as I said....took over a team of very good players, all in their prime.

Will Clark was 29.
Matt Williams was 27. (38 HR's, 110 RBI's, 104 Runs)
Barry Bonds was 27 and on steroids. (46 HR's, .336 AVG, 1.136 OPS)
Willie McGee batted .301 w/ a .353 OBP while playing great defense.
Robby Thompson batted .312 w/ a .375 OBP and .495 SLG while playing great Defense.
Darren Lewis at age 25 played great Defense in CF while getting 46 SB's.
Royce Clayton age 23 played great Defense at SS while batting .282 w/ a .331 OBP.
Kirt Manwaring was age 27 while Catching in 130 games and batting .275 w/ a .345 OBP.
Mark Carreon was a 4th Outfielder at age 29 who batted .327 with a .373 OBP and .540 SLG.

Because everyone was at their prime ages, there was a lot of team speed and great defense. Bonds also stole 29 bases while three others stole at least 10 bases.

Other bench players were Dave Martinez, age 28, Todd Benzinger, Age 30 w/ a .783 OPS, Jeff Reed at Catcher w/ a .784 OPS.



And then there was the pitching...

Billy Swift, age 31, w/ a 2.82 ERA and 231 IP and a 1.074 WHIP.
John Burkett, age 28 w/ a 22-7 record and 232 IP and a 1.140 WHIP.

Those were two horses, while the great Rod Beck, age 23, had 48 Saves and a 0.882 WHIP in 76 games. Think Dusty rode his pitchers? Two guys w/ 230 Innings and a closer whom he used in almost half of the games.

28 year old Michael Jackson was used in half the games, 81 total, and he had a WHIP of 1.060. 3 games in a row for Chapman? No problem. He'll use him again tomorrow if there's a save situation.

Trevor Wilson was 27, 3.60 ERA in 18 starts.

Dave Burba was 28, with a 10-3 mark in 5 starts and a lot of long relief.

Kevin Rogers was 24 with a 2.68 ERA in 64 games.

Jeff Brantley was 29 with 12 starts and 9 finishes.

Bud Black was 36, but managed a 3.60 ERA in 16 starts.



Dusty happened to be in the right place at the right time, and then promptly turned a 103 win team into losers three years in a row, even with the steroided Barry Bonds at the top of his game. What was the biggest reason for them losing so badly so quickly? Everyone's On-Base Percentage dropped by an average of about 40 points. Sound familiar? Think Drew Stubbs. Once Baker leaves (and Jacoby and Speir, too....anyone who thinks Baker is a good Manager), Stubbs will become the player we thought he'd be.

Seriously, can't wait until Dusty Baker hits the dust. He just horrible for the organization. Don't want to see him do any more damage to the young guys, Cozart, Stubbs, Frazier, Heisey, and Bruce. They need Rick Sweet, who handled them so well in AAA, being their teacher/coach in the majors. Watch and see if Janish doesn't all of a sudden learn how to hit in Atlanta.

Thank you Kingspoint, for taking the time to compile the facts to refute a "Kool-Aider." :KoolAid:

I don't have the patience for it anymore, especially in light of the fact that overwhelming evidence does nothing to stop them from making the same soundly refuted assertions over and over again. :eek:

I am very glad that you took the trouble and put in the effort to do it though. Well done.Excellent post. :thumbup:

[50YrRedsFan]

First of all, I live and die Baseball. Next, I've lived and died Reds baseball since 1968. Many painful years......and some great glory years. I grew up listening and watching the Dodgers and Angels, with managers like Walt Alston (yes, I go back that far) and Tom Lasorda. The Angels had Bill Rigney, John McNamara (he also managed the Reds), Gene Mauch, Dick Williams(HOF), Whitey Herzog (HOF), and many more. I never saw as many questionable decisions by any of these managers as I have seen by Dusty Baker. Sometimes I just scratch my head, wondering why he did what he did (especially making up a lineup). I'd sure like to know how this team would do with a different manager.

[smixsell]

First of all, I live and die Baseball. Next, I've lived and died Reds baseball since 1968. Many painful years......and some great glory years. I grew up listening and watching the Dodgers and Angels, with managers like Walt Alston (yes, I go back that far) and Tom Lasorda. The Angels had Bill Rigney, John McNamara (he also managed the Reds), Gene Mauch, Dick Williams(HOF), Whitey Herzog (HOF), and many more. I never saw as many questionable decisions by any of these managers as I have seen by Dusty Baker. Sometimes I just scratch my head, wondering why he did what he did (especially making up a lineup). I'd sure like to know how this team would do with a different manager.

Me too on both counts.........watched many great managers weave their magic over the years (since 1975) and scatching my head at Dusty's many surrealisticly bad decisions and wanting to see what this talented young team could do under a good field general and teacher.

[Who Dey Time]

Me too on both counts.........watched many great managers weave their magic over the years (since 1975) and scatching my head at Dusty's many surrealisticly bad decisions and wanting to see what this talented young team could do under a good field general and teacher.

LOL...you're going to be real disappointed when Dusty rightfully gets his extension.