Votto has torn meniscus, to miss 3-4 weeks

[brm7675]

There is a report going around that Votto is having "minor" knee surgery today..No surgery is minor...

ETA: On the TV broadcast, Brenamen said Votto to miss 3-4 weeks due to a torn meniscus.

[Krawhitham]

There is a report going around that Votto is having "minor" knee surgery today..No surgery is minor...

the google has failed

Where is this report?

[bigredmechanism]

There is a report going around that Votto is having "minor" knee surgery today..No surgery is minor...

Should have done this during the ASB.

[Krawhitham]

It seems to be a twitter rumor started by Andy Furman

[R_Webb18]

of course there is minor. lets just hope it is minor.

[moewan]

If this is true, that means no Votto for at least two weeks.

[brm7675]

Sports reporter from WVA is the one I got it from via Lance Mcalister...

[Krawhitham]

Sports reporter from WVA is the one I got it from via Lance Mcalister...

Andy Furman (https://twitter.com/AndyFurmanFSR/status/224977770713849857) posted about it 5 minutes before Bob Hertzel
(https://twitter.com/bhertzel/status/224979122412208128)

[New York Red]

It seems to be a twitter rumor started by Andy Furman
Not surprising, since Furball is garbage. I never did like that guy. He's almost as bad as Alan Cutler.

[New York Red]

Having said that ... Joey is definitely not right, and hasn't been for almost a month now. If the organization thinks he needs "minor surgery" during the season, then obviously it's a pretty big deal. As the OP said, no knee surgery is really "minor".

[Krawhitham]

two weeks

https://twitter.com/Popo_WCPOSports/status/224995280892854272

[R_Webb18]

this will be a huge test for us. 2 weeks is not for ever but it could hurt. we need people to step up.

[bigredmechanism]

If it's truly a meniscus thing, then surgery is the best bet. I had a full tear in mine when I was about 20. Hobbling but still walked on it for a month. A week after the surgery I was back to jogging, a week after that I felt perfectly fine.

On top of that, JV is a world class athlete, which I am not, so hopefully his recovery is even better than mine was.

[Ironman92]

Ugh.....if only 2 weeks and he comes back as Votto, it'll be fine.

I knew Frazier playing first was not a day off thing.

[The Rage]

Why didn't they do it at the ASB and save some time........

[Red Raindog]

nothing mentioned about it on the part of the pre-game show I saw -- said that Dusty was giving him a mental & physical day off because he had no days off at the AS break AND that his knee was a little sore ---

take that and use it as you may

[New York Red]

Perfect timing, schedule-wise.

[Trajinous]

Crap....the next two weeks will be very important. At least it's against sub-.500 teams.

[New York Red]

this will be a huge test for us. 2 weeks is not for ever but it could hurt. we need people to step up.
The Reds should be able to play winning baseball for the rest of July, even without Joey. Hopefully it coincides with the Pirates cooling off for awhile. They're due.

[Who Dey Time]

If true at least the schedule works out with the D'Backs, Brewers, Astros and Rockies over the 2-week time frame. Get it done and get him back right.

[brm7675]

I think we are missing the bigger picture...HOW IN THE HECK did this happen? REally who dropped the ball on this one? Someone needs to be fired without question. With all the medical technology we have and for this to occur some heads need to roll. I would start with Dr. K, and work my way down..

[Trajinous]

I think we are missing the bigger picture...HOW IN THE HECK did this happen? REally who dropped the ball on this one? Someone needs to be fired without question. With all the medical technology we have and for this to occur some heads need to roll. I would start with Dr. K, and work my way down..

Haha, just because the computer crashes doesn't mean Apple/Dell should be dismantled as a company. Thanks for the example of overreaction.

[Trajinous]

Thom just announced the surgery on TV. Out 3-4 weeks. Reds are 25-21 when Votto doesn't play at all. Hopefully they can keep that up, I know Cairo was a big part in that record. Now it's Frazier's turn to step up.

[Red Raindog]

They announced it is official -- meniscus surgery out 3 - 4 weeks

It sure seems like out medical staff misses a lot

:confused:

[brm7675]

Haha, just because the computer crashes doesn't mean Apple/Dell should be dismantled as a company. Thanks for the example of overreaction.

There is an issue here, either someone in our medical staff is an idiot or something. HOW with today's technology do you MISS THIS?

[Trajinous]

They announced it is official -- meniscus surgery out 3 - 4 weeks

It sure seems like out medical staff misses a lot

:confused:

I disagree with this statement.

The Reds have used the least number of players so far this season and only 5 starting pitchers. I think that has to do with the medical staff using preventative measures/care. Just because it's our best player going down, naturally Dr.K and co will be getting undeserved malice. The Reds were lucky to not have a major injury outside of BP for a few weeks (and Madsen of course).

[wvreds]

My gut tells me to ask WTH is the medical staff doing?!?!

The other says WTH was Votto doing

HE should not have played the All Star Game,

As soon as they thought he may be hurt thy should have done MRI and the whole 9 yards he is too valuable not to.


Now I bet we may see Henry Rodriguez come up who do you think?

[Larkin88]

There is an issue here, either someone in our medical staff is an idiot or something. HOW with today's technology do you MISS THIS?

It's not like having herpes, or not.

There's a whole range of potential meniscus injuries and if it was a complete tear, there's even a few different types of those. A lot of those injuries are treated through conservative measures that don't even involve surgery... it all depends on the severity and the athlete in question.

For what it's worth, I tore my meniscus, had surgery, and ran a 10k a week and a half later. Joey obviously needs a lot more out of his body, but he also has a whole team of medical professionals to help him with it. I know this sounds severe, but I'm sure the Reds were just waiting to see how it responded.

He probably didn't further damage it much playing on it the bit he has since occurring it, but might have aggravated the pain of it. It's torn cartilege. This is as good a time as the schedule could afford to have to deal with something like this. I'm sure Joey will respond well.

But just be patient, reasonable and stop trying to assign blame about injuries. They happen, it's a part of the game. Time for the rest of the team to step up.

[19braves77]

Please send him to Pensacola on rehab 4 weeks from now.

[bigredmechanism]

It's not like having herpes, or not.

There's a whole range of potential meniscus injuries and if it was a complete tear, there's even a few different types of those. A lot of those injuries are treated through conservative measures that don't even involve surgery... it all depends on the severity and the athlete in question.

For what it's worth, I tore my meniscus, had surgery, and ran a 10k a week and a half later. Joey obviously needs a lot more out of his body, but he also has a whole team of medical professionals to help him with it. I know this sounds severe, but I'm sure the Reds were just waiting to see how it responded.

He probably didn't further damage it much playing on it the bit he has since occurring it, but might have aggravated the pain of it. It's torn cartilege. This is as good a time as the schedule could afford to have to deal with something like this. I'm sure Joey will respond well.

But just be patient, reasonable and stop trying to assign blame about injuries. They happen, it's a part of the game. Time for the rest of the team to step up.

I agree. As far as knee injuries go, if you had to pick one it would be meniscus.

[BurgervilleBuck]

Now it's Frazier's turn to step up.

He's not used to these pressure cooker situations. ;)

How soon until someone starts bellyaching about the Yonder Alonso trade?

[CrosleyField]

I agree. As far as knee injuries go, if you had to pick one it would be meniscus.


+1

[Red Raindog]

I disagree with this statement.

The Reds have used the least number of players so far this season and only 5 starting pitchers. I think that has to do with the medical staff using preventative measures/care. Just because it's our best player going down, naturally Dr.K and co will be getting undeserved malice. The Reds were lucky to not have a major injury outside of BP for a few weeks (and Madsen of course).

My recollection goes back farther than just this year

[Krawhitham]

Why did it take the Reds medical staff 17 days to determine Votto had a torn meniscus?

[Maker_84]

I think we are missing the bigger picture...HOW IN THE HECK did this happen? REally who dropped the ball on this one? Someone needs to be fired without question. With all the medical technology we have and for this to occur some heads need to roll. I would start with Dr. K, and work my way down..

i was calling for Votto to be benched a loooooong time ago because i could tell his knee was bothering him all that time.

[Larkin88]

Why did it take the Reds medical staff 17 days to determine Votto had a torn meniscus?

It probably didn't. Guys play through meniscus tears all the time, especially if they're only partial ones. Depending on the severity, a lot of athletes or doctors will opt to go in a therapy direction rather than surgery out of the gate.

My guess is it just didn't respond the way they had hoped. This isn't like tearing an ACL, there's a whole spectrum of levels of pain and damage.

The timing is really interesting, though. Plays through the tough West Coast swing and a hard series against the Cards only to opt for surgery during one of the softer spots of our schedule. Don't know if there's something to that or not.

[Mutaman]

Why did it take the Reds medical staff 17 days to determine Votto had a torn meniscus?

Isn't this the key question? I know nothing about this subject, but i don't understand why this took so long to figure out.

[Tadasimha]

It's possible the tear occurred after he hurt his knee in San Francisco. That slide might have weakened the knee and then the tear came later. If his knee hurt before, Votto might have put the pain of the tear down to the continuing pain of the initial injury and tried to play through it.

Votto hasn't been playing particularly well but the Reds have been winning anyway. Three weeks without Votto (assuming he rehabs and recovers quickly) shouldn't hurt too much so long as the pitching holds up.

Great opportunity for Frazier.

[Krawhitham]

lance berkman just missed 7 weeks with a torn meniscus

4 weeks might just be a pipe dream

[Tadasimha]

lance berkman just missed 7 weeks with a torn meniscus

4 weeks might just be a pipe dream

Berkman is also eight years older than Votto who is in much better condition physically.

[Larkin88]

4 weeks might just be a pipe dream

Worked out just fine for Geovany Soto earlier this year.

[Mutaman]

Three weeks without Votto (assuming he rehabs and recovers quickly) shouldn't hurt too much so long as the pitching holds up.


Right. Its not like Votto is an MVP or anything like that.

[R_Webb18]

Right. Its not like Votto is an MVP or anything like that.

that's why he said pitching.

[Mutaman]

Votto did not have an MRI before Monday.

“He didn’t request until then,” Jocketty said. “He didn’t think it was much of problem until the last few days.”

What am I missing here?

[Stray]

We'll be fine.

Votto is a huge loss obviously, but we aren't a one man team.

[Stray]

Votto did not have an MRI before Monday.

“He didn’t request until then,” Jocketty said. “He didn’t think it was much of problem until the last few days.”

What am I missing here?

When you invest a quarter of a billion dollars in someone you'd think the medical staff would have looked into it more.

[Mutaman]

We'll be fine.

Votto is a huge loss obviously, but we aren't a one man team.

No, but we're a one man offense.

[Stray]

No, but we're a one man offense.

Nah, he's our best offensive player by a mile, but we have a lot of other guys who drive in runs. Not saying it doesn't hurt, just that I think we're good enough to win without him for a little while.

[George Foster]

When you invest a quarter of a billion dollars in someone you'd think the medical staff would have looked into it more.

If a guy said he was "fine" its just a little sore, you trust him. He was playing and producing. Not as he was the last 3 weeks, but you can make an argument that he was coming back down to his normal .310-.325 batting average. An MRI gives off a LOT of radiation. Maybe Joey refused. You can't put a gun to his head. A torn Meniscus does not limit range of motion. It's just painful. We all have tweeked our ankle and or knee and it has healed on its own. This did not.

[Stray]

If a guy said he was "fine" its just a little sore, you trust him. He was playing and producing. Not as he was the last 3 weeks, but you can make an argument that he was coming back down to his normal .310-.325 batting average. An MRI gives off a LOT of radiation. Maybe Joey refused. You can't put a gun to his head. A torn Meniscus does not limit range of motion. It's just painful. We all have tweeked our ankle and or knee and it has healed on its own. This did not.

It was just so obvious he wasn't right ever since the injury. I dunno, with how important he is to us not only now, but for the next decade, there's no way I'm not giving him an MRI on the West coast.

It just seems like the lazy way to do things. Of course you hope it's just a tweaked knee that will heal with time, but you have to make sure ASAP.

[brm7675]

It's not like having herpes, or not.

There's a whole range of potential meniscus injuries and if it was a complete tear, there's even a few different types of those. A lot of those injuries are treated through conservative measures that don't even involve surgery... it all depends on the severity and the athlete in question.

For what it's worth, I tore my meniscus, had surgery, and ran a 10k a week and a half later. Joey obviously needs a lot more out of his body, but he also has a whole team of medical professionals to help him with it. I know this sounds severe, but I'm sure the Reds were just waiting to see how it responded.

He probably didn't further damage it much playing on it the bit he has since occurring it, but might have aggravated the pain of it. It's torn cartilege. This is as good a time as the schedule could afford to have to deal with something like this. I'm sure Joey will respond well.

But just be patient, reasonable and stop trying to assign blame about injuries. They happen, it's a part of the game. Time for the rest of the team to step up.

Injuries are part of the game...that is not the issue..issue is lack of an organization to do what is needed to protect its players and to have quality professionals be able to diagnose and treat injuries correctly and quickly.

[brm7675]

Why did it take the Reds medical staff 17 days to determine Votto had a torn meniscus?

Simple it was.that many days till the MRI was done...which raises even mote questions...

[brm7675]

Votto did not have an MRI before Monday.

“He didn’t request until then,” Jocketty said. “He didn’t think it was much of problem until the last few days.”

What am I missing here?

Poor lack of managerial control from both GM and manager.

[brm7675]

Nah, he's our best offensive player by a mile, but we have a lot of other guys who drive in runs. Not saying it doesn't hurt, just that I think we're good enough to win without him for a little while.

Two months is in no way a little while....

[Stray]

Poor lack of managerial control from both GM and manager.

Walt and Dusty aren't paid to be doctors, Dr. K is.

[Stray]

Two months is in no way a little while....

It'll be much faster than that imo.

[brm7675]

Walt and Dusty aren't paid to be doctors, Dr. K is.

Who is the GM...whom does Dr. K report to? Who makes up the line up card? Whom could have stopped JC from playing in the ASG?

[Stray]

Who is the GM...whom does Dr. K report to? Who makes up the line up card? Whom could have stopped JC from playing in the ASG?

Cmon man, you hire a medical staff to diagnose injuries and give the people making decisions the correct information.

Sure he reports to Walt, but ultimately Dr. K has to do his job. Dusty makes the lineup with what he's given, which apparently was a 1st baseman who needed a few days off. He's not an expert in diagnosing injured knees. He has to defer to those who are.

[MrRedLegger]

This is a bad blow to the team but we're in no way out of it. Not sure how to think of this, but although his WAR is one of the highest in baseball a 4.4 still suggests that we're still a good ball club without him. Some positives:

Even if we're a .500 team without him these next few weeks, we should still be right there.

Our schedule during his recovery leans heavily in our favor.

Votto's injury has nothing to do with the "Pirates will phase out" theory.

This could be much, much worse than what it is.

Votto has a decent health insurance plan.

This setback only feeds his work ethic even more.

Pittsburgh is losing as we speak

[DocRed]

When you invest a quarter of a billion dollars in someone you'd think the medical staff would have looked into it more.

This does not surprise me unfortunately considering how they missed Madson's diagnosis as well.

[DocRed]

If a guy said he was "fine" its just a little sore, you trust him. He was playing and producing. Not as he was the last 3 weeks, but you can make an argument that he was coming back down to his normal .310-.325 batting average. An MRI gives off a LOT of radiation. Maybe Joey refused. You can't put a gun to his head. A torn Meniscus does not limit range of motion. It's just painful. We all have tweeked our ankle and or knee and it has healed on its own. This did not.

An MRI gives off zero radiation, it is all magnet based.

[brm7675]

If a guy said he was "fine" its just a little sore, you trust him. He was playing and producing. Not as he was the last 3 weeks, but you can make an argument that he was coming back down to his normal .310-.325 batting average. An MRI gives off a LOT of radiation. Maybe Joey refused. You can't put a gun to his head. A torn Meniscus does not limit range of motion. It's just painful. We all have tweeked our ankle and or knee and it has healed on its own. This did not.


No you don't...you never trust a player when it comes to a possible injury.

[George Foster]

An MRI gives off zero radiation, it is all magnet based.

But they do use "radiation" in the physicist’s sense of the word, which is any kind of radiant energy, including light. If medical people say "yes, MRIs use radiation", that’s the sense in which they’re using the term, and you must remember that not all radiation is dangerous.

You don't want to have ten MRIs a day for the rest of your life.

[George Foster]

No you don't...you never trust a player when it comes to a possible injury.

you can't force someone to have an MRI. The GM stated he did not want one until Monday. I say he was offered and refused. He is not the Reds property...he is an employee. You can't force him. I'd say if he had to do it all over again he would of found out eariler. He said it was just hurting off and on, and did not hurt constantly (according to the GM) until the last couple of days.

[texasdave]

you can't force someone to have an MRI. The GM stated he did not want one until Monday. I say he was offered and refused. He is not the Reds property...he is an employee. You can't force him. I'd say if he had to do it all over again he would of found out eariler. He said it was just hurting off and on, and did not hurt constantly (according to the GM) until the last couple of days.

Exactly.

[brm7675]

you can't force someone to have an MRI. The GM stated he did not want one until Monday. I say he was offered and refused. He is not the Reds property...he is an employee. You can't force him. I'd say if he had to do it all over again he would of found out eariler. He said it was just hurting off and on, and did not hurt constantly (according to the GM) until the last couple of days.


Sorry but I respectfully disagree. Companies can have you drug tested without your wanting to.

[malcontent]

You know it's coming. You know you want it.

It's Rolen and Cairo, together again!

Reds manager Dusty Baker could give Frazier more starts at first base, while mixing and matching with veteran Miguel Cairo.

"I don't know. It's a good possibility," Baker said of Frazier starting. "He'll play some first and some third. Miggy will play some first. Miggy is an outstanding first baseman. We just have to get Miggy swinging, because he saved us a couple of years ago when Joey was out for an extended period of time."

http://cincinnati.reds.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20120716&content_id=35034654&notebook_id=35035620&vkey=notebook_cin&c_id=cin

Two walks in 71 PA tells me Miggy's already swinging the bat.

[texasdave]

Sorry but I respectfully disagree. Companies can have you drug tested without your wanting to.

Wrong.


- While as an employer you do not have to notify your employees when drug
- testing will take place (in most states), it is, however, necessary to have the
- employee's consent to administer a drug test. This can be done by requiring
- each employee to read and sign a copy of the employee drug testing policy and
- having an official meeting to discuss the policy in order to address any concerns
- or to clear up any discrepancies that may exist.

[brm7675]

Wrong.

Don't take the test and find yourself unemployed or not hired. If Votto refused the MRI then he should have been DL'ed because at least then he doesn't make the injury worse. With that said I don't think this is on Votto...this is on Walt and the medical system almost to a degree of negligence.

[Who Dey Time]

Sorry but I respectfully disagree. Companies can have you drug tested without your wanting to.

No they cannot.

It's very simple here. Votto wanted to try to play through the injury and, as the best player on the team, the Reds were going to give him that chance. It turns out that he wasn't able to do that. This happens in every sport on numerous occasions. Stop trying to create a grand conspiracy where one doesn't exist.

[Stray]

If this stuff didn't seem to be the norm with our medical staff it would be different. Obviously you cannot force someone to do something they don't want, but with 250+mil invested in one person you can sure as heck be very convincing.

It's just irresponsible, especially if it were the kind of injury that could have been made worse by playing.

Just my opinion.

[The_Mudshark]

Sorry but I respectfully disagree. Companies can have you drug tested without your wanting to.

You can never be forced to be drug tested.

You agree to testing procedures when you are hired.

[brm7675]

No they cannot.

It's very simple here. Votto wanted to try to play through the injury and, as the best player on the team, the Reds were going to give him that chance. It turns out that he wasn't able to do that. This happens in every sport on numerous occasions. Stop trying to create a grand conspiracy where one doesn't exist.

No conspiracy..just plain flat out old neglegence on the part of a number of people that should result in loss of job, repremand and such.

[brm7675]

You can never be forced to be drug tested.

You agree to testing procedures when you are hired.

Which I bet in all players contract it states that if the player is injuried the team has a right to do X, Y and Z and I am willing to bet having an MRI done is in that contract.

[Larkin88]

Which I bet in all players contract it states that if the player is injuried the team has a right to do X, Y and Z and I am willing to bet having an MRI done is in that contract.

Then let's take him to court.

You're getting awfully, awfully upset about a lot of assumptions.

[brm7675]

No they cannot.

It's very simple here. Votto wanted to try to play through the injury and, as the best player on the team, the Reds were going to give him that chance. It turns out that he wasn't able to do that. This happens in every sport on numerous occasions. Stop trying to create a grand conspiracy where one doesn't exist.

Players are like children you don't allow them to make choices like that. Especially when you have invested what you have invested in Joey. This is not some low level player making just thousands. This is your Franchise player for the next decade. As soon as he was pulled from that Giants game he should have gone and had an MRI done. He should have them been put on the DL no matter what the MRI showed. He should have gone the 15 days with no activity of any type on that leg but rehab. At the end of the 15 days you do another MRI and have him show by working out in the outfield pre game that he has full mobility without pain. If the MRI is clean and he moves without pain or reduced mobility then you activate him, if he can't do that he stays on. That is how you handle a $200 million dollar player with a knee injury.

[brm7675]

Then let's take him to court.

You're getting awfully, awfully upset about a lot of assumptions.

No I am upset because our best player and maybe one of the best players in baseball is on the shelf for maybe up to 2 months and even then we don't know how well he will play upon his return. I am upset that other teams seem much more in tune with handling injured players then the Reds do.

[Who Dey Time]

Players are like children you don't allow them to make choices like that. Especially when you have invested what you have invested in Joey. This is not some low level player making just thousands. This is your Franchise player for the next decade. As soon as he was pulled from that Giants game he should have gone and had an MRI done. He should have them been put on the DL no matter what the MRI showed. He should have gone the 15 days with no activity of any type on that leg but rehab. At the end of the 15 days you do another MRI and have him show by working out in the outfield pre game that he has full mobility without pain. If the MRI is clean and he moves without pain or reduced mobility then you activate him, if he can't do that he stays on. That is how you handle a $200 million dollar player with a knee injury.

So if the MRI showed nothing you still put your best player on the DL? You are completely wrong on all accounts here and are, typically, over reacting to what is a fairly common situation.

[brm7675]

So if the MRI showed nothing you still put your best player on the DL? You are completely wrong on all accounts here and are, typically, over reacting to what is a fairly common situation.

Yes I would have DL, because something was wrong you could see it when he ran. If I have 200 million dollars invested in something like a player, I am not going to risk it. I am going to have him rest for 15 days, let the injury heal and then reevaluate him. Had the Reds done that, the chances of surgery are maybe nill, now we are minus our best player for a minimum of a month, maybe up to 2. I will take 15 days, of which one almost full week was with no games being played over what we have now. Anyone who doesn't isn't looking for what is best for the player and the team.

[brm7675]

So if the MRI showed nothing you still put your best player on the DL? You are completely wrong on all accounts here and are, typically, over reacting to what is a fairly common situation.

What is a "fairly" common situation? Playing hurt players is never a good idea, that is why they have the 15 day DL.

[DocRed]

But they do use "radiation" in the physicist’s sense of the word, which is any kind of radiant energy, including light. If medical people say "yes, MRIs use radiation", that’s the sense in which they’re using the term, and you must remember that not all radiation is dangerous.

You don't want to have ten MRIs a day for the rest of your life.

Wrong again, there is ZERO damaging radiation from MRI's. If you want to be talk semantics, ya there is "radiant energy" from an MRI just like light bulbs's and space heaters gives off "radiant energy" but not damaging radiation.

[Larkin88]

No I am upset because our best player and maybe one of the best players in baseball is on the shelf for maybe up to 2 months and even then we don't know how well he will play upon his return. I am upset that other teams seem much more in tune with handling injured players then the Reds do.

Assumption highlighted in red.

Injuries happen man. No question this sucks. Couldn't have picked a worst guy for it to happen to, but I'm not going to pretend that I know what went on behind the scenes in this decision or the relative severity of this injury in particular. You'd do well to excuse yourself from those responsibilities as well, you'll keep your hair a little longer. :p

I'm no fan of Kremcheck. I'll be the first to admit that. Yes, there seems to be a potential trend of poor perceptions towards him from athletes too. But that doesn't all of a sudden make meniscus tears more than what they are or change the fact that there are all sorts of subjective approaches to rehabbing them.

[Larkin88]

What is a "fairly" common situation? Playing hurt players is never a good idea, that is why they have the 15 day DL.

Meniscus injuries are a "fairly" common situation. Yes.

[brm7675]

Assumption highlighted in red.

Injuries happen man. No question this sucks. Couldn't have picked a worst guy for it to happen to, but I'm not going to pretend that I know what went on behind the scenes in this decision or the relative severity of this injury in particular. You'd do well to excuse yourself from those responsibilities as well, you'll keep your hair a little longer. :p

I'm no fan of Kremcheck. I'll be the first to admit that. Yes, there seems to be a potential trend of poor perceptions towards him from athletes too. But that doesn't all of a sudden make meniscus tears more than what they are or change the fact that there are all sorts of subjective approaches to rehabbing them.


My issue isn't the injury, it's how it was handled. What if Joey continued to play through the pain, at what point would the Reds finally stepped in and done something? By continuing to play on a bad knee what more harm was done? What if Joey hadn't chosen to have the MRI yesterday, there is a chance long term damage could have been done. The problem here is the lack of control by the team in doing what is best for the player no matter what the player thinks or wants.

Look at the Blue Jays, why DL JB, give it a few days rest, he will be okay, suck it up and play through the pain right? It's not broken it's just a muscle strain...why worry about an MRI...well they xrayed last night, and MRI this morning and DL him today. Again they did what was best for the player and the team and in a timely manner. That is how you run your medical side of your team.

[Larkin88]

My issue isn't the injury, it's how it was handled.


And my issue isn't you taking issue with how the Reds handled this. A quick inventory of your posts shows that you take issue with just about everything they do, injury-related or not. We've agreed to disagree before and I'm fine doing that.

But, now that we know what we know and the results are in hand, I do take issue with you running around here saying this is a two-month or potentially season-ending injury. I'm guessing you've never had a meniscus injury yourself and must not pay much attention to professional sports in general. It is not.


What if Joey continued to play through the pain, at what point would the Reds finally stepped in and done something?

For all we know the answer could have been yesterday. No sense getting upset about that which we do not know... even if we don't understand it.

[Larkin88]

Cross-post from Old Red Guard poster fisch11


My brother got this response at season ticket luncheon:

"I asked assist gm dick Williams why team did not ask for MRI when Votto didn't. Said collective bargaining agreement and players union take player privacy with health issues seriously, and that Votto never thought it was that serious until last few days."

Basically from that I gather that Joey would have had to thought he was injured seriously enough to consent to an MRI if it was thought to be necessary. Players union frowns upon teams asking first unless warranted.

source (http://www.redszone.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2667251&postcount=268)

[Who Dey Time]

My issue isn't the injury, it's how it was handled. What if Joey continued to play through the pain, at what point would the Reds finally stepped in and done something? By continuing to play on a bad knee what more harm was done? What if Joey hadn't chosen to have the MRI yesterday, there is a chance long term damage could have been done. The problem here is the lack of control by the team in doing what is best for the player no matter what the player thinks or wants.

Look at the Blue Jays, why DL JB, give it a few days rest, he will be okay, suck it up and play through the pain right? It's not broken it's just a muscle strain...why worry about an MRI...well they xrayed last night, and MRI this morning and DL him today. Again they did what was best for the player and the team and in a timely manner. That is how you run your medical side of your team.

What is really dumb about this post is the insinuation that the Reds and Joey were not monitoring the knee issue since San Francisco. You act as if the Reds and the medical staff essentially turned a blind eye to his condition and that they were caught off guard by the surgery option. None of which is remotely true.

The Bautista situation is not comparable. First, he immediately went down in pain and told the team he felt something pop (based off the ESPN article). Had Joey said he felt or heard something pop in his knee he would have had an MRI before he was able to get his uniform off.

Joey has a minor injury, he tried to play through it and he couldn't. End of story.

[brm7675]

And my issue isn't you taking issue with how the Reds handled this. A quick inventory of your posts shows that you take issue with just about everything they do, injury-related or not. We've agreed to disagree before and I'm fine doing that.

But, now that we know what we know and the results are in hand, I do take issue with you running around here saying this is a two-month or potentially season-ending injury. I'm guessing you've never had a meniscus injury yourself and must not pay much attention to professional sports in general. It is not.



For all we know the answer could have been yesterday. No sense getting upset about that which we do not know... even if we don't understand it.


But it was Joey who went to them and requested the MRI.

[brm7675]

What is really dumb about this post is the insinuation that the Reds and Joey were not monitoring the knee issue since San Francisco. You act as if the Reds and the medical staff essentially turned a blind eye to his condition and that they were caught off guard by the surgery option. None of which is remotely true.

The Bautista situation is not comparable. First, he immediately went down in pain and told the team he felt something pop (based off the ESPN article). Had Joey said he felt or heard something pop in his knee he would have had an MRI before he was able to get his uniform off.

Joey has a minor injury, he tried to play through it and he couldn't. End of story.

Someone turned a blind eye. Because anyone with any quality of eye sight could see he was hurting. He was pulled from that game, missed following games and his overall numbers went into the tank. It doesn't take a doctor to see something was the matter. Now maybe the medical staff was telling Walt and Dusty that something like an MRI needed to be done and maybe Walt and Dusty ignored them and went wit what Joey was telling them. If this is the case then both of them screwed up, because like I said earlier, sports athletes can't be trusted when it comes to their health, if the medical staff is saying there might be an issue, you listen to them, not the player. IF he refuses to have an MRI, you sit him and rest him/DL him, but you don't let him keep playing and playing in a ASG that ment nothing.

[brm7675]

What is really dumb about this post is the insinuation that the Reds and Joey were not monitoring the knee issue since San Francisco. You act as if the Reds and the medical staff essentially turned a blind eye to his condition and that they were caught off guard by the surgery option. None of which is remotely true.

The Bautista situation is not comparable. First, he immediately went down in pain and told the team he felt something pop (based off the ESPN article). Had Joey said he felt or heard something pop in his knee he would have had an MRI before he was able to get his uniform off.

Joey has a minor injury, he tried to play through it and he couldn't. End of story.

Sorry but anytime surgery has to be done...I don't view it as minor.

[Larkin88]

But it was Joey who went to them and requested the MRI.

So who are we mad at here, then? Joey for not asking for it sooner? The club for not forcibly holding Joey against his will to get an MRI? The club for not "stepping in" to intervene in some hyptohetical world where Joey didn't get an MRI all together going into August? Please, please, I need to assign blame to someone. :rolleyes:

Are you insinuating that the team wouldn't allow permission to give Joey an MRI until he specifically asked for it? Or are you just mad at nothing in particular and trying to rationalize thoughts against it?

You asked at what point the club would put pressure on Votto to get an MRI. As I said in my post, for all we know it could have been yesterday and Joey finally agreed. Heck, the club could have been asking him to get an MRI "pretty please with sprinkles on top" everyday for the last two weeks.

Guess who doesn't have answers for those questions: You, me and anyone on this board.

[Larkin88]

Sorry but anytime surgery has to be done...I don't view it as minor.

And anytime someone has a minor injury to their meniscus, they don't necessarily need surgery. As people have pointed out to you. Over and over and over.

[brm7675]

So who are we mad at here, then? Joey for not asking for it sooner? The club for not forcibly holding Joey against his will to get an MRI? The club for not "stepping in" to intervene in some hyptohetical world where Joey didn't get an MRI all together going into August? Please, please, I need to assign blame to someone. :rolleyes:

Are you insinuating that the team wouldn't allow permission to give Joey an MRI until he specifically asked for it? Or are you just mad at nothing in particular and trying to rationalize thoughts against it?

You asked at what point the club would put pressure on Votto to get an MRI. As I said in my post, for all we know it could have been yesterday and Joey finally agreed. Heck, the club could have been asking him to get an MRI "pretty please with sprinkles on top" everyday for the last two weeks.

Guess who doesn't have answers for those questions: You, me and anyone on this board.

Like I said earlier, you treat professional athletes like small kids. You make the decision for them because they never do. When Votto got hurt, the team should have done an MRI, if Joey said he didn't want one I would have asked "why"? What is the harm for having one done? If he still refuses and there is, as there was noticeable swelling and he couldn't run, like he couldn't , I put him on the 15 day DL, allow for the swelling to go down and then reevaluate. Again the choice should never be the players.

[brm7675]

And anytime someone has a minor injury to their meniscus, they don't necessarily need surgery. As people have pointed out to you. Over and over and over.


Your right, all they need is rest and rehab, which again didn't happen. Had they put him on the DL, rested the knee for 15 days and then let him rehab then maybe the surgery wouldn't have been needed, but again they didn't do anything to help cure the problem...that is the problem.

[Larkin88]

Like I said earlier, you treat professional athletes like small kids. You make the decision for them because they never do. When Votto got hurt, the team should have done an MRI, if Joey said he didn't want one I would have asked "why"? What is the harm for having one done? If he still refuses and there is, as there was noticeable swelling and he couldn't run, like he couldn't , I put him on the 15 day DL, allow for the swelling to go down and then reevaluate. Again the choice should never be the players.

Got it. The MLB Player's Association might disagree with your general position there, but point taken.

[brm7675]

Got it. The MLB Player's Association might disagree with your general position there, but point taken.

They have every right to disagree, but that doesn't matter, the Reds or any sports team has to do what is in the best interest of the team. The DL was created for this purpose, to allow players to heal from injury without being punished or losing a paycheck. So why not use it?

[The_Mudshark]

And my issue isn't you taking issue with how the Reds handled this. A quick inventory of your posts shows that you take issue with just about everything they do, injury-related or not.

Excellent point.

Everyday I check the forums, only to see brm7675 has started like 4 threads by 10 a.m., all complaining or speculating while waiting for someone to troll him so the battle of picking peanuts out of turds can commence. I've even seem him/her argue with people who try to agree or elaborate on his/her points.

Minor surgery - he's gonna be ok. If he misses the rest of the season due to managment's negligence, I will take you to dinner at the Boathouse.:thumbup:

[texasdave]

Don't take the test and find yourself unemployed or not hired. If Votto refused the MRI then he should have been DL'ed because at least then he doesn't make the injury worse. With that said I don't think this is on Votto...this is on Walt and the medical system almost to a degree of negligence.

You are still wrong. They can't force you to take the test. Of course, being wrong and trying to spin things in a ridiculous manner is your modus operandi.

[Larkin88]

They have every right to disagree, but that doesn't matter, the Reds or any sports team has to do what is in the best interest of the team. The DL was created for this purpose, to allow players to heal from injury without being punished or losing a paycheck. So why not use it?

To royally oversimplify things: Because I don't think Joey or the Reds thought it would need surgery. Turns out it did.

http://www.plungemn.org/image.php?image=/images/photos/teams/captainhindsight.jpg

[Krawhitham]

So who are we mad at here, then? Joey for not asking for it sooner? The club for not forcibly holding Joey against his will to get an MRI?

The club has a history of misdiagnosing their star players, just ask Jr. The Reds have 250 million tied up in Votto, If he wakes up late he needs an MRI, If he sneezes he needs a MRI, If he hits his knee and hobbles around FOR THE LOVE OF GOD HE NEEDS A MRI

[Krawhitham]

Excellent point.

Everyday I check the forums, only to see brm7675 has started like 4 threads by 10 a.m., all complaining or speculating while waiting for someone to troll him so the battle of picking peanuts out of turds can commence.


I do not agree with brm7675 often but he is right the medical staff blows and has for a long time. They are great with surgeries but blow on diagnosing.

[brm7675]

You are still wrong. They can't force you to take the test. Of course, being wrong and trying to spin things in a ridiculous manner is your modus operandi.

No they can't but they can DL him and rest him and reevaluate, which is what they should have done.

[brm7675]

To royally oversimplify things: Because I don't think Joey or the Reds thought it would need surgery. Turns out it did.

http://www.plungemn.org/image.php?image=/images/photos/teams/captainhindsight.jpg

But did he? Could have a stint on the DL, rest and rehab prevented that? Since for whatever reason an MRI wasn't done on the day of the injury we don't know when it happened, but if the tear occured on another day due to lack of rest and rehab then that is a problem because that could have happened.

[brm7675]

I do not agree with brm7675 often but he is right the medical staff blows and has for a long time. They are great with surgeries but blow on diagnosing.

I don't know how to look it up, but I wonder compared to other teams, what amount of days have the Reds used on the 15 day DL over the past few seasons and how does that compare with other teams. I always get the feeling the Reds buck using it at the cost of the players health and performance.

[Larkin88]

But did he? Could have a stint on the DL, rest and rehab prevented that?

I don't know and don't see there being any value in speculating against questions we're not going to get answers from. Certainly not going to start getting mad at people when I don't have all the information, regardless of what may or may not have happened with Ken Griffey Jr.'s hamstring in 2004.

Said it before: I'm no fan of Kremechek. But I also think the conspiracy theories about this situation are a little overblown. We're going to have to agree to disagree again, I guess.

[Falcon7]

http://orthoinfo.aaos.org/figures/A00358F02.jpg

Link to more info:
http://orthoinfo.aaos.org/topic.cfm?topic=a00358

[DocRed]

First off I want to make it clear I am in no way angry at Votto, he did what any player does, tough it out as long as he can. However the training/medical staff are responsible for protecting the player even against the player himself. What do you think would happen if we allowed players with concussions to decide when they could go back to play? Certainly this is an extreme example, but it illustrate my point. The training/medical staff should have stepped in sooner, and I am convinced of that fact.