What were we saying?

[UPRedsFan]

What was that we were all saying awhile ago??? Something about no one getting on base in front of Votto. A terrible centerfielder who can't hit. No clean up hitter.

Now they've won 7 in a row and Stubbs has saved the day in the 9th 2 nights in a row.

Never mind.

Just win.

[webbbj]

I mean its great and all. Im happy ive never doubted this team all year.

That doesnt mean that cleanup and leadoff are a strength of this team or even serviceable. It should still try to be improved upon one of those areas.

Stubbs should still be batting 7 or 8 and coming off the bench more. I'll trust what he is as a player over his first 90 games this year and his previous 300+ games b4 this season over a recent surge.

The split in CF should probably be about 100 games for heisey and 62 to stubbs.

[fielder's choice]

Now would be a great time to trade Stubbs...

[Red Buckeye]

I was wondering how long it would take for someone to start a thread like this. You'd be hard pressed to find any Reds fans who are sad we won the last two games. And yes Stubbs was the big hero the last two night.

I am grateful for what he did. It wasn't looking good in either game, and he came thru big time.

But...

That doesn't erase the entire season of disappointment that is Drew Stubbs. If the Reds aren't going to trade him, he should be moved down to the lower end of the lineup and he should be primarily a bench player. I would have no problem with Stubbs as a backup, in fact I beleive he would be a great piece of the puzzle as a bench player.

He's a great option for pinch running, pinch fielding late in the game, and he isn't the worst option for a PH.
But his inconsistency as a starter can't be overlooked because of two great games in a row.


Whatever though. As long as the Reds are winning I'm happy. Good times indeed. :beerme:

[Pony Boy]

Stubbs would actually be a very nice player if Dusty used him appropriately.

That is start him much less often against right handed pitchers (in favor of Heisey), and bat him in the 6 or 7 hole.

[herbdizzle]

I've been beating the trade or bench Stubbs horn for a couple months and his production is still subpar. However, his recent surge may be his own personal response to a real thread to losing his job. In 3 years, Stubbs has been given the everyday CF job no matter what he does on the field, good or terrible. Heisey has never been a truly viable option for CF in Baker's eyes and there is no other in-house option to take away his position. With all of the recent trade talk about Victorino, Span, etc. Stubbs knows there is real chatter and thought about replacing him now. If the immediacy of the situation is what lights a fire under Drew's arse then great. The Stubbs of the past 10 days is an extremely valuable player but he must play that way through the entire stretch run to convince me and many others he has turned a corner.

[Old NDN]

Guilty, as charged. I'm happy for him and the Reds. Like many, I think he's better suited for hitting lower in the order, because of all the swings and misses. But, let's ride the hot bat as long as it lasts. Great comeback again! Another good outing by Homer.

[P.E.R#14]

We keep getting people on base from the top of the order without Votto in the lineup. Maybe Votto is the problem.:laugh:

[MrRedLegger]

Would opinions of Stubbs, Bruce, and any other so-called "underachieving" player be different had we not had baseball's greatest team ever in the 70's? It's somewhat of a high (and unattainable) standard to hold every team since then to.

I feel that each player fits very well into the scheme of things this season. Look at our record. Walt, Bob, the Brothers Williams, and others have built a pitching core that took not only years to acquire but patience for the flowers to blossom and the fruits to grow (rotation and bullpen included). It is now one of the best staffs in baseball. Our bats may not be lights-out, but they're not terrible. Our defense is the best in baseball. Not a bad recipe for success.

Stubbs is 27, but was technically a rookie in 2010 (played only 42 games in 2009). He's getting a lot of criticism for a player in his 3rd (3 1/2 ish) season. I too get frustrated when he strikes out, but it seems worth it when he comes through like in the last two games. It is in my opinion that the Red's management staff, Dusty included, have a very good (and patient) eye for players that will one day be great.

[mrherd05]

Even the best of teams do not have strengths at all 25 roster spots.

[Who Dey Time]

Even the best of teams do not have strengths at all 25 roster spots.

Some people fail to realize this and that we are currently one of the best teams!

[R_Webb18]

Even the best of teams do not have strengths at all 25 roster spots.

of course but you should always try to improve if possible

[Ironman92]

Would opinions of Stubbs, Bruce, and any other so-called "underachieving" player be different had we not had baseball's greatest team ever in the 70's? It's somewhat of a high (and unattainable) standard to hold every team since then to.


Stubbs is 27, but was technically a rookie in 2010 (played only 42 games in 2009). He's getting a lot of criticism for a player in his 3rd (3 1/2 ish) season. I too get frustrated when he strikes out, but it seems worth it when he comes through like in the last two games. It is in my opinion that the Red's management staff, Dusty included, have a very good (and patient) eye for players that will one day be great.


He was not in any way a rookie in 2010. "He only played 42 games in 2009".......

In 2009 he came up after the Reds had played 118 games (44 games remaining).....of those possible 44 games Stubbs played in 42 and started 40 games.....The day he was called up he started and played 34 consecutive games (8.9 innings per game) He had 190 plate appearances.

He has played in 430 career games and has 1789 career plate appearances. He will turn 28 before the playoffs start.

[GoReds19]

The Reds are beating up on bad teams right now. If Houston had a halfway decent closer the Reds would have lost 2 out of 3 to the worst team in baseball.

Most of the other contending teams are making upgrades, and so should the Reds. The most obvious spot to upgrade is CF.

[Stray]

Most of the other teams are 5-7 games over .500 and trying to improve to catch up with teams like us.

Not saying we shouldn't look at making improvements if possible, but we're in a position to be really good for a long time. No way am I hurting that to make a minimal upgrade to one of the best teams in baseball. We're in a good spot right now, especially considering we have a refreshed, healthy MVP set to return for our late season push.

[IamRV]

Stubbs would actually be a very nice player if Dusty used him appropriately.

That is start him much less often against right handed pitchers (in favor of Heisey), and bat him in the 6 or 7 hole.

Agree and disagree. There's no doubt he hits much better against LHP than RHP. There's also no doubt (according to his stats) he hits much better at #2 in the lineup than anywhere else.

Ergo - to maximize his contributions to the club he should bat second against every LHP we face.

A straight platoon with Heisey would do our offense a world of good but our 'manager' just doesn't see things that way and there's the rub.

BTW - he's the same guy that keeps running out a rookie at the top of the order who's hit poorly all year but since the All-star break he's at .167 with an OBP of .229. Yes, we've won in spite of that but it's maddening.

[MrRedLegger]

He was not in any way a rookie in 2010. "He only played 42 games in 2009".......

In 2009 he came up after the Reds had played 118 games (44 games remaining).....of those possible 44 games Stubbs played in 42 and started 40 games.....The day he was called up he started and played 34 consecutive games (8.9 innings per game) He had 190 plate appearances.

He has played in 430 career games and has 1789 career plate appearances. He will turn 28 before the playoffs start.

I tried to acknowledge that when I mentioned he was technically a rookie in 2010 and that this is his 3rd and a half season. I believe the cutoff for "rookie" status is less than 45 games played during the previous (and player's first) season. He may turn 28 this year but his career has been shorter than some 25 year olds in the league.

In my opinion, running a player out of town at this point in his career is premature.

[fielder's choice]

This offense has to be upgraded, no doubt. Without two straight gifts from Cordero, we drop 2 of 3 to that pathetic team.

[Ironman92]

I tried to acknowledge that when I mentioned he was technically a rookie in 2010 and that this is his 3rd and a half season. I believe the cutoff for "rookie" status is less than 45 games played during the previous (and player's first) season. He may turn 28 this year but his career has been shorter than some 25 year olds in the league.

In my opinion, running a player out of town at this point in his career is premature.

It's 150 at bats isn't it. Games played not a factor I believe. He was technically, not a rookie.

[Ironman92]

I tried to acknowledge that when I mentioned he was technically a rookie in 2010 and that this is his 3rd and a half season. I believe the cutoff for "rookie" status is less than 45 games played during the previous (and player's first) season. He may turn 28 this year but his career has been shorter than some 25 year olds in the league.

In my opinion, running a player out of town at this point in his career is premature.

He's also been in the league longer than some 30 year olds.

[m21eagle45]

Most of the other teams are 5-7 games over .500 and trying to improve to catch up with teams like us.

Not saying we shouldn't look at making improvements if possible, but we're in a position to be really good for a long time. No way am I hurting that to make a minimal upgrade to one of the best teams in baseball. We're in a good spot right now, especially considering we have a refreshed, healthy MVP set to return for our late season push.

It is not like we have a 10 game lead. We have won 7 in a row and 13 of 15 (correct me if I am wrong) and our lead is only 2.5 and could be down to 2 because we are off tonight. Let's not forget that StL is only a few games behind the Pirates. Other teams are keeping pace with us. The Pirates have added one starter already and are looking at other pieces to improve. Other teams that we have to play are also looking to improve if they have not already. Yes we get Votto back and that is like a trade in itself, but Votto does not fix the need for a leadoff hitter, a left handed hitter off the bench, or a cleanup hitter. And a cleanup hitter is still a need unless we all feel safe with Luddy keeping up his current production, and I am not one that thinks he will.

[HometownHero]

Can't take our foot off the gas even if we can go 32-32 and win 90 games. The Cardinals are in one of those runs that the only the Cardinals have were every single things goes right no matter than talent level of the play and the Pirates are still going to be a part of the race.

Its sick we have the 4th best record in baseball and just a few points away from 2nd but we have the smallest lead in all of baseball not counting the AL central tie. If we stub our toe for one bad series we could be on the outside looking in that quick.

[Maker_84]

This offense has to be upgraded, no doubt. Without two straight gifts from Cordero, we drop 2 of 3 to that pathetic team.

i agree, but there isnt anyone available who can make too big of an impact

[texasdave]

It's 150 at bats isn't it. Games played not a factor I believe. He was technically, not a rookie.

130 at-bats or 50 innings pitched. Or. 45 days service time during the period when teams are at the 25-man roster limit.

[UPRedsFan]

My point in starting this thread is that in spite of the madness of Dusty's lineups and his refusal to platoon Stubbs and the lack of a left handed bat on the bench, and lack of OBP at the top, somehow they are 18 games over.

Sometimes you just have to be happy with what you have! Great pitching, great defense, and just enough offense when they need it. I think back 6 years ago when Cueto and Bailey were making noise in the minors and how sweet it is that now they've arrived and most likely will be #1 and #2 in the playoff rotation.

[OldCat]

What was that we were all saying awhile ago??? Something about no one getting on base in front of Votto. A terrible centerfielder who can't hit. No clean up hitter.

Now they've won 7 in a row and Stubbs has saved the day in the 9th 2 nights in a row.

Never mind.

Just win.


...of course, they still are not getting on base for Votto.

[OldCat]

My point in starting this thread is that in spite of the madness of Dusty's lineups and his refusal to platoon Stubbs and the lack of a left handed bat on the bench, and lack of OBP at the top, somehow they are 18 games over.

Sometimes you just have to be happy with what you have! Great pitching, great defense, and just enough offense when they need it. I think back 6 years ago when Cueto and Bailey were making noise in the minors and how sweet it is that now they've arrived and most likely will be #1 and #2 in the playoff rotation.



I agree with you actually. And if they made a trade and got this magic OBP demigod, what is that going to do for us this year - a run every two or three games or so? An extra win or two the rest of the way?

Not to mention that any real player might be weaker in defense or speed and thus affect games in ways not so easy to measure.

[texasdave]

I agree with you actually. And if they made a trade and got this magic OBP demigod, what is that going to do for us this year - a run every two or three games or so? An extra win or two the rest of the way?

Not to mention that any real player might be weaker in defense or speed and thus affect games in ways not so easy to measure.

I am not trying to be flippant, but I wonder if the Braves and the Red Sox would have like an extra win or two last season. I would imagine that in most years the difference between playing or not playing in October for some teams comes down to an extra win or two. I sure wish the 1999 Reds would have secured one more win somewhere along the way.

[OldCat]

I am not trying to be flippant, but I wonder if the Braves and the Red Sox would have like an extra win or two last season. I would imagine that in most years the difference between playing or not playing in October for some teams comes down to an extra win or two. I sure wish the 1999 Reds would have secured one more win somewhere along the way.

Yes it might turn out that way - and this nameless guy we get might go into a slump and be worse than Stubbs. Stubbs might hit 350 the rest of the way.

There are a lot of factors to look into before trading away a decent young player because he doesn't fit the current favorite spreadsheets. I thought the idea for new stats was to find new ways to explain what happens, not to form a new Procrustean bed to judge players by.

[50YrRedsFan]

The Reds are beating up on bad teams right now. If Houston had a halfway decent closer the Reds would have lost 2 out of 3 to the worst team in baseball.

Most of the other contending teams are making upgrades, and so should the Reds. The most obvious spot to upgrade is CF.

Agree 100%........we have had trouble all year with the better pitchers. We have been shut down by mediocre pitchers several times. Get a cleanup hitter, move Phillips to leadoff, Stubbs to #2, Cozart to #8, catcher to #7.

[50YrRedsFan]

Our pitching has us in 1st place, not our hitting. If we had weaker pitching, we would be well behind the Pirates. We fielded a team last night with only Frazier hitting above .244.

[HometownHero]

Our pitching has us in 1st place, not our hitting. If we had weaker pitching, we would be well behind the Pirates. We fielded a team last night with only Frazier hitting above .244.

It doesn't help we've had several of our players have unlucky years.

BABIP Under .270
.269 Bruce
.262 Ludwick
.252 Rolen
.248 Mesoraco
.159 Cairo

Tyler Greene is a player every Cardinals fan wants gone and he has a .289 BABIP and that's the lowest one of anyone over 75 AB on their team.

[joshua]

I've seen enough of Stubbs to know he isn't the long term answer in CF and would much rather have Heisey out there five days a week instead. I was patient with him until I read about him saying in the offseason that he didn't work in changing his approach after a historic year with an embarrassingly high amount of strikeouts. That was enough to know I didn't want him back. He’s been on a roll lately yeah, but that will only change my perspective of him if he could but even league average for half..hell a quarter of a season. He has actually gotten worse since 2010, and he should be hitting his prime at this point.

If he's only playing well because his job is in jeopardy, then that makes me like him even less than I already do. Thats pure laziness. If he wants to collect a check rather than focus and play his best, let him do it from the bench or from centerfield on some offer team. One week doesn't make up for two seasons of baseball where he's actually been worse than his rookie year.

And yes, I'm happy as hell the Reds are winning. This is the most excited I've been as a Reds fan since we signed Junior. But just because I'm happy with the overall performance doesn't mean I cant point out the players that have been hurting the team. Baseball isn't black and white.

[The Rage]

I am starting to think the Reds need to upgrade the pitching staff more than the offense. Offensively, when Votto gets back and some unlucky guys start catching some breaks, run support should rise.

But I think the current staff is probably overachieving abit. Boosting it a bit may allow no dropoff.