8/24/12 - Reds vs Cards

[Kc61]

The use of Arredondo and Hoover last night comes back to haunt. Simon really isn't the guy for this situation.

He's hardly pitched in weeks, this isn't a good spot for him.

Now second and third, 3-0 count. Oy.

[edabbs44]

Reds are down 1 run in this game and up 7 games in the division. Just wanted to post that in case any newcomers to the thread thought the Reds were losing 10-0 and lost 9 games in the standings since last night.

[cincrazy]

This is why Simon is a 6th inning pitcher.

[Reds Fanatic]

Simon now looking like the pitcher the Orioles got rid of.

[mbgrayson]

Question: Did the Reds send Latos back to Cincinnati early, or did he get in at 4:00 a.m. this morning like the rest of the team?

Simon sure didn't leave early last night....

I think these guys might just be a little tired.

[edabbs44]

This is why Simon is a 6th inning pitcher.

It's the 6th inning.

[cincrazy]

Reds are down 1 run in this game and up 7 games in the division. Just wanted to post that in case any newcomers to the thread thought the Reds were losing 10-0 and lost 9 games in the standings since last night.

Thank you. I didn't know every game was game 7 of the World Series.

[Kc61]

Simon now looking like the pitcher the Orioles got rid of.

He must be incredibly rusty.

[Reds Fanatic]

Furcal singles to center. 7-5 Cards. 7 straight batters have reached. Still no outs.

[cincrazy]

It's the 6th inning.

Yeah I know. But it's a "high leverage" situation so to say. This is why you don't see him in the 8th

[edabbs44]

Yeah I know. But it's a "high leverage" situation so to say. This is why you don't see him in the 8th

Agree, was just pointing out the irony.

[Reds Fanatic]

Carpenter hitting for Kelly

[Kc61]

Yeah I know. But it's a "high leverage" situation so to say. This is why you don't see him in the 8th

Even though they pitched yesterday, he might bring in Hoover or Arredondo just to get out of this inning.

Or else it could be a huge deficit soon.

[dman]

NM

[George Foster]

Reds are down 1 run in this game and up 7 games in the division. Just wanted to post that in case any newcomers to the thread thought the Reds were losing 10-0 and lost 9 games in the standings since last night.

With who we got pitching Sat, and Sunday...we needed to win this one. Neither of them pitch well in GABP. It could be a 4 game lead by Sunday afternoon, and St. louis would have all the mojo..

[Reds Fanatic]

Carpenter sac fly to center. 8-5 Cards.

[Tony Cloninger]

Everyone was happy when the Pirates were being beat and acting like the Cards were done.... Yeah OK. Just beacuse it happened last year does not mean it will happen again.....but the fact is, this Cards team is better than last year's team.

[Reds Fanatic]

An ugly night for Latos as he is charged with 7 earned runs.

[cincrazy]

Not only that, but it's these kind of moments when the fact that Walt sat back and did nothing at the trade deadline to make this team a viable playoff contender. Yes, there's still a very good chance the Reds may make it there, but I fear seeing the same thing that happened in 2010 take place again in 2012.

The Cardinals, as much as I loathe them, have some very playoff experienced players with Holliday, Beltran, Molina and so on... Those guys make a huge difference in these kind of games during regular season. I hate being made to look like a AAA team by the Cardinals.

Seriously? You don't thnk we're a viable contender? Come on man. Don't overreact to the disappoint of this one game.

[redsfandan]

the inability to put the ball in play with runners in scoring position with less than 1 out has hurt this team all year.


Still no outs, walk,....Latos has officially lost it...

We ain't playin the Cubs or Astros...


An ugly night for Latos as he is charged with 7 earned runs.

EVERY pitcher has an off day. That's when the offense has to take over.

[RedLegsToday]

Seriously? You don't thnk we're a viable contender? Come on man. Don't overreact to the disappoint of this one game.

This. Didn't we sweep this team the last time we saw them?

[Reds Fanatic]

Nice play by Cozart on a 6-4 FC.

[Tony Cloninger]

It's not, but that home run just seemed inevitable after all the chances the Reds let slip away. One decent chance for the Cards and they blow the doors off. Frustrating.

Exactly. It;s the fact it is this team that i loathe like the Yankees, Steelers and used to be the Dodgers.....and probably will be again after this last trade.

[cincrazy]

Everyone needs to calm down, go to Walgreens for some meds, and return home ready to see a Reds come from behind win.

[Tony Cloninger]

Seriously? You don't thnk we're a viable contender? Come on man. Don't overreact to the disappoint of this one game.

Do you think they are going to the playoffs.....and I think they are a good team....but with Valdez (Ray Oyler) and Cairo (Tom Lawless) sitting on the bench? I do not think they are that good.

[George Foster]

EVERY pitcher has an off day. That's when the offense has to take over.

Sure they do. However you can't have all your "off" days against good competition.

To quote the Ole Ball Coach...."big time players come up big...in big time games."

[Tom Servo]

Everyone needs to calm down, go to Walgreens for some meds, and return home ready to see a Reds come from behind win.
Even if we win, it would be hard to feel good about this.

[Reds Fanatic]

Another wild pitch

[cincrazy]

Do you think they are going to the playoffs.....and I think they are a good team....but with Valdez (Ray Oyler) and Cairo (Tom Lawless) sitting on the bench? I do not think they are that good.

In the playoffs our main guys off the bench will be Frazier/Rolen and Heisey. So yes, I think this team is that good. Cairo and Valdez will hardly see any time.

[dman]

Seriously? You don't thnk we're a viable contender? Come on man. Don't overreact to the disappoint of this one game.

No, I really don't. As much as I love this team and have thoroughly enjoyed watching what has happened, I don't think they can hold up.

[Playadlc]

This. Didn't we sweep this team the last time we saw them?

I am way more aggravated at this thread than I am at this game.

I swear Reds fans just sit around waiting for bad things to happen.

Depressing.

[edabbs44]

Even if we win, it would be hard to feel good about this.

I think Simon is the only one right now who should be really feeling really awful right about now.

[Tony Cloninger]

In the playoffs our main guys off the bench will be Frazier/Rolen and Heisey. So yes, I think this team is that good. Cairo and Valdez will hardly see any time.

Hmmmm..... I guess I have not seen Dusty value these guys as much as you have?

[Reds Fanatic]

Beltran walks

[mbgrayson]

The inning from Hell.....

Is finally over.

[dman]

This. Didn't we sweep this team the last time we saw them?

Yes, we swept the Cards the last time we saw them, but a much different Cards team in terms of healthy players then compared to now.

[kbrake]

Do you guys think this team has been lucky for the entire season? One game goes sideways and now people are thinking this team isn't even a playoff contender. Wow.

[Reds Fanatic]

It is finally over. Holliday grounds out to short. 8-5 Cards mid 6th.

[cincrazy]

Hmmmm..... I guess I have not seen Dusty value these guys as much as you have?

Votto has been out. And he's trying to keep guys fresh. Guys won't be getting days off in the playoffs.

[Kc61]

Reds can still win this ballgame but they have to get good relief pitching.

Can't give up any more runs.

[edabbs44]

Do you guys think this team has been lucky for the entire season? One game goes sideways and now people are thinking this team isn't even a playoff contender. Wow.

So sad. In addition, it is only the 6th inning.

[Homer Bailey]

OK, I need to separate myself as someone who is just upset and frustrated by this game, and those that are completely overreacting.

[Playadlc]

Do you guys think this team has been lucky for the entire season? One game goes sideways and now people are thinking this team isn't even a playoff contender. Wow.

It's just unreal for such a quality board.

[mbgrayson]

Could we call in a rainstorm for four hours RIGHT now? That would nullify those runs, and Reds win 5 to 2... At least under the old rules.

[Tom Servo]

OK, I need to separate myself as someone who is just upset and frustrated by this game, and those that are completely overreacting.
I'll second this. I'm not ready to declare anything over, although this game has just seriously bummed me out. We still have a chance tonight. And if not, there's tomorrow.

[redsfandan]

Do you think they are going to the playoffs.....and I think they are a good team....but with Valdez (Ray Oyler) and Cairo (Tom Lawless) sitting on the bench? I do not think they are that good.
So, since Valdez and Cairo are on the team, THAT'S why you don't think the Reds are a playoff team? C'mon.

Sure they do. However you can't have all your "off" days against good competition.

To quote the Ole Ball Coach...."big time players come up big...in big time games."

Does it really matter in the end who the bad games are against? Not until the playoffs.

[Tony Cloninger]

Do you guys think this team has been lucky for the entire season? One game goes sideways and now people are thinking this team isn't even a playoff contender. Wow.

Not at all. But it does show how sitting on your hands again.....during the trading deadline for even a decent bat off the bench....is going to hurt this team trying to come back.

The bullpen has been a gas can as well lately. Hard to come back when the bullpen throws it back up. Arredondo has never met a 1-2-3 inning, Broxton is "unlucky" to the point of being bad.

[Reds Fanatic]

Salas in to pitch

[Reds Fanatic]

Stubbs strikes out swinging.

[cincrazy]

Can't believe after the season these guys have given us, with the way they've played without Votto, some of you are jumping ship over ONE GAME. Embarrassing.

[Kc61]

Cards have a murderous road trip. Everyone relax, only one game.

Stubbs strikes out.

Marty is going through all the men left on base for the Reds without mentioning that Latos was hitting in many of the key spots.

Phillips up.

[Tony Cloninger]

So, since Valdez and Cairo are on the team, THAT'S why you don't think the Reds are a playoff team? C'mon.


Does it really matter in the end who the bad games are against? Not until the playoffs.



NO....they are a playoff team.. They are just not a team that I see going far....with a bench that has those 2.

[mth123]

Can't believe after the season these guys have given us, with the way they've played without Votto, some of you are jumping ship over ONE GAME. Embarrassing.

:thumbup:

[REDSEER]

Not at all. But it does show how sitting on your hands again.....during the trading deadline for even a decent bat off the bench....is going to hurt this team trying to come back.

The bullpen has been a gas can as well lately. Hard to come back when the bullpen throws it back up. Arredondo has never met a 1-2-3 inning, Broxton is "unlucky" to the point of being bad.

But if you think about it, when we get Votto back, we will have one of Frazier/Rolen/Ludwick/Votto on the bench every day, along with Paul, who has been great off the bench since he's been up. Getting Votto back upgrades the bench, too.

[Tom Servo]

Can't believe after the season these guys have given us, with the way they've played without Votto, some of you are jumping ship over ONE GAME. Embarrassing.
That helps, honestly. Now I can watch the rest of this game while repeating "Votto is coming. Votto is coming. Votto is coming." in my head and feel better, like Bart at Kamp Krusty.

[_Sir_Charles_]

Can't believe after the season these guys have given us, with the way they've played without Votto, some of you are jumping ship over ONE GAME. Embarrassing.

It's certainly showing who the bandwagon fans are. That's for sure.

BTW...I still think we win THIS game.

[Reds Fanatic]

Phillips strikes out swinging.

[kbrake]

Not at all. But it does show how sitting on your hands again.....during the trading deadline for even a decent bat off the bench....is going to hurt this team trying to come back.

The bullpen has been a gas can as well lately. Hard to come back when the bullpen throws it back up. Arredondo has never met a 1-2-3 inning, Broxton is "unlucky" to the point of being bad.

Not trying to pick on you but I keep seeing the "Walt sat on his hands" Maybe there was no good deal to be made. This team is sitting in a really good situation to have a pretty long run of success. As far as the bullpen they have definitely hit a rough patch but they are the best bullpen in the league.

I love this team. And I don't mean the Reds, obviously we all do we're on a message board on a Friday night, I mean this 2012 Cincinnati Reds team. I freaked out 6 weeks ago when Votto went down and thought the season was probably over. They've played incredible for those 6 weeks without their MVP. They can pitch, they play good defense, and they can hit a little bit. They battle back constantly and most importantly they are just a really good team.

I think we are going to be playing in October and I don't think it will look anything like 2010.

[Brutus]

It's certainly showing who the bandwagon fans are. That's for sure.

BTW...I still think we win THIS game.

I think this game is over, but I think it's just *this game* that is over. I don't think it's any way indicative of the rest of the season.

[redsfandan]

Can't believe after the season these guys have given us, with the way they've played without Votto, some of you are jumping ship over ONE GAME. Embarrassing.

Agreed.


NO....they are a playoff team.. They are just not a team that I see going far....with a bench that has those 2.

Well, we'll find out now won't we?

[dman]

Do you guys think this team has been lucky for the entire season? One game goes sideways and now people are thinking this team isn't even a playoff contender. Wow.
As fans, is it safe to say that all of us see certain trends? As I've watched, the only one of our starting pitchers that is holding up is Cueto, and even he has been fading just a tad, yet even if he doesn't, he can't prop this team up by himself until the end of September, especially if the offense isn't going to give the pitchers some run support. Bronson always seems to be big opposing team inning away from blowing a big lead, as we see tonight, same for Latos... Homer is a head case, and I'm not sure of Leake. Games like this, and more specifically a series like this drives home the fact that something needed and should have been done at the trade deadline to shore up any one of the ares that this team could sorely use help in. Anything to help prop this team up would've been great.

[Homer Bailey]

If you're basing the fate of this year's team in the playoffs based off the 25th man, can you please tell me who'll win the super bowl this year based on final cuts coming up soon?

[Reds Fanatic]

Ludwick strikes out swinging. 8-5 Cards after 6.

[Brutus]

The Reds have struck out 10 times in 6 innings.

[Tony Cloninger]

But if you think about it, when we get Votto back, we will have one of Frazier/Rolen/Ludwick/Votto on the bench every day, along with Paul, who has been great off the bench since he's been up. Getting Votto back upgrades the bench, too.


I am waiting. It's starting to remind of the slow crawl of one of Justin Mornaeus injuries. Not Votto's fault of course.

[Brutus]

As fans, is it safe to say that all of us see certain trends? As I've watched, the only one of our starting pitchers that is holding up is Cueto, and even he has been fading just a tad, yet even if he doesn't, he can't prop this team up by himself until the end of September, especially if the offense isn't going to give the pitchers some run support. Bronson always seems to be big opposing team inning away from blowing a big lead, as we see tonight, same for Latos... Homer is a head case, and I'm not sure of Leake. Games like this, and more specifically a series like this drives home the fact that something needed and should have been done at the trade deadline to shore up any one of the ares that this team could sorely use help in. Anything to help prop this team up would've been great.

If the only one that is holding up is Cueto, how have they gone 30-12 since the All-Star break?

[BCubb2003]

Something psycho always happens between these two teams.

Five runs through six is actually pretty decent run support.

[Tony Cloninger]

Not trying to pick on you but I keep seeing the "Walt sat on his hands" Maybe there was no good deal to be made. This team is sitting in a really good situation to have a pretty long run of success. As far as the bullpen they have definitely hit a rough patch but they are the best bullpen in the league.

I love this team. And I don't mean the Reds, obviously we all do we're on a message board on a Friday night, I mean this 2012 Cincinnati Reds team. I freaked out 6 weeks ago when Votto went down and thought the season was probably over. They've played incredible for those 6 weeks without their MVP. They can pitch, they play good defense, and they can hit a little bit. They battle back constantly and most importantly they are just a really good team.

I think we are going to be playing in October and I don't think it will look anything like 2010.



No problem. A few here are....even when I agreed with what they are posting....when they were being negative as well.

[cincrazy]

Cincrazy's fact of the day: Even if the Cards sweep us by a combined score of 60-12 this series, we still lead them by four games.

Oh, and some guy named Votto comes back soon.

[Reds Fanatic]

Broken bat ground out to 3rd by Craig.

[dman]

If the only one that is holding up is Cueto, how have they gone 30-12 since the All-Star break?

I'm going to gamble and say that much of it was that they were that good for that stretch, but we all know there were many breaks that fell our way also. Look, I'm simply posting as an observer. I'm no expert, and I'm certainly not trying to incite anything on here in a negative way. Please don't take what I'm saying so personally. Just casual observations.

[cincrazy]

No problem. A few here are....even when I agreed with what they are posting....when they were being negative as well.

I'm not trying to pick on you Tony. I just think you're overreacting to one game man. I've got a sick feeling in my stomach too. This game sucks. But the beauty of baseball is, the tide turns fast. Tomorrow is a new day. The 2000 Yankees were DREADFUL in September, and won the World Series. The 2006 Cards won 83 games. Won the World Series. The Cards sweeing us here wouldn't decide anything, let alone this one game.

[Tom Servo]

http://i.imgur.com/Xx0uE.png

it can always be worse

[_Sir_Charles_]

I swear, one of these days someones going to get killed by an impaled broken bat. Just scary sometimes.

[Reds Fanatic]

Molina strikes out swinging.

[REDSEER]

Nice change up there from Simon. He's settled in a bit this inning. Just keep this team in striking distance and we've seen what they can do.

[Kc61]

Something psycho always happens between these two teams.

Five runs through six is actually pretty decent run support.

Exactly. Five runs usually wins for this team. Cueto and Latos with subpar outings in games against good teams.

Too bad, but the team isn't going down the tubes. Just a couple of bad outings by the team's best starters.

I'm confident that Cueto and Latos will come back next time against Arizona.

This series, maybe the Reds can pull out this game or beat Garcia or Wainright.

[George Foster]

I think this game is over, but I think it's just *this game* that is over. I don't think it's any way indicative of the rest of the season.

sure...not the rest of the season but this sets the tone for THIS series. If we don't come back, it will be one of the worst losses of the year. Up 5-2 with Latos pitching in the 6th, Chapman rested, we should win.

Leake and Bailey have not exactly been lights out in GABP.

[BCubb2003]

I swear, one of these days someones going to get killed by an impaled broken bat. Just scary sometimes.

It was almost Chapman.

[Reds Fanatic]

Freese hit by the pitch

[powersackers]

Phillips strikes out swinging.

Phillips too awesome to run to first his last two times whiffing on in the dirt pitches. He looks like a fool. Just run.

[Tom Servo]

This series, maybe the Reds can pull out this game or beat Garcia or Wainright.
if we do, we still have at worst a 6 game lead.

[cincrazy]

Phillips and Ludwick were really pressing last inning, swinging at awful pitches. These guys just need to take a deep breath.

[_Sir_Charles_]

It was almost Chapman.

I know. I was holding my breath on that one.

Don't get me wrong, I'm very "old school" and I love the sound of a ball hitting a wooden bat...but there are days I think we'd be better served just switching to aluminum. Not to mention this crazy hesitation by stadiums to not extend the netting to well beyond the dugouts. Unfortunately it's going to take some horrific event to change things.

[Kc61]

Pirates trail by three in the ninth, but Mr. Axford is doing his thing. Walked two in the inning, Pirates with a threat.

[Tony Cloninger]

I'm not trying to pick on you Tony. I just think you're overreacting to one game man. I've got a sick feeling in my stomach too. This game sucks. But the beauty of baseball is, the tide turns fast. Tomorrow is a new day. The 2000 Yankees were DREADFUL in September, and won the World Series. The 2006 Cards won 83 games. Won the World Series. The Cards sweeing us here wouldn't decide anything, let alone this one game.



Not at all. I am good.

The tone has been set though and It blows. You have to pitch better than Latos did tonight.

[_Sir_Charles_]

if we do, we still have at worst a 6 game lead.

Think positive guys. Everyone's looking at worst case scenarios or ways to escape one.

[Reds Fanatic]

I know. I was holding my breath on that one.

Don't get me wrong, I'm very "old school" and I love the sound of a ball hitting a wooden bat...but there are days I think we'd be better served just switching to aluminum. Not to mention this crazy hesitation by stadiums to not extend the netting to well beyond the dugouts. Unfortunately it's going to take some horrific event to change things.

Major league hitters using aluminum bats would be scary. I would not want to be a pitcher with a line drive hit off an aluminum bat coming back at me.

Schumaker singles

[Kc61]

Meanwhile, Simon is lousing up this inning. I guess you don't want to waste more pitching so he stays in, but he's not really helping things.

[Reds Fanatic]

Anoher wild pitch. 4 for the game and 3 of them from Simon

[_Sir_Charles_]

Major league hitters using aluminum bats would be scary. I would not want to be a pitcher with a line drive hit off an aluminum bat coming back at me.

Schumaker singles

True. Maybe some other alternative. Something that DOESN'T shatter.

[Brutus]

What does "setting tones" mean?

Honestly, tones don't win baseball games. Tomorrow the score will start out 0-0. That is a fact.

[cincrazy]

I think I just broke my pinky toe on the corner of my in-table. And my brother just unleashed an epically disastrous fart. This night is unraveling quickly.

[Tony Cloninger]

What does "setting tones" mean?

Honestly, tones don't win baseball games. Tomorrow the score will start out 0-0. That is a fact.

I am tone deaf anyways....so who knows. It sounded ominous and foreboding....so I used it.

[Reds Fanatic]

Schumaker grounds out to short. 8-5 Cards mid 7th

[Kc61]

Simon has hardly pitched lately, so I'll give him a pass for some troubles last night and this.

After tonight, the pass is over and he should be more effective.

Go Reds.

[_Sir_Charles_]

I think I just broke my pinky toe on the corner of my in-table. And my brother just unleashed an epically disastrous fart. This night is unraveling quickly.

Considering my mood, making me laugh HARD right now is quite impressive. :O) Well done cincrazy. :beerme:

[dman]

True. Maybe some other alternative. Something that DOESN'T shatter.

I say we just go to wiffle ball sets. Some nasty curve balls with that, plus you'd have to on some serious PEDs to get big numbers there.

[Tony Cloninger]

Simon has hardly pitched lately, so I'll give him a pass for some troubles last night and this.

After tonight, the pass is over and he should be more effective.

Go Reds.

Problem is when will Baker think about using him again? Catch 22 with him it seems.

[Reds Fanatic]

Meanwhile in Pittsburgh John Axford is in the process of blowing the lead. It is now 6-4 Brewers and the Pirates hasve 2 on with 1 out.

[Brutus]

I am tone deaf anyways....so who knows. It sounded ominous and foreboding....so I used it.

Well, kudos to your honesty and use of vernacular. :beerme:

[George Foster]

Meanwhile, Simon is lousing up this inning. I guess you don't want to waste more pitching so he stays in, but he's not really helping things.

With the guy we got pitching for us tomorrow...you need a rested bull pen.

You honestly don't know what your going to get from Leake start to start. He was given all kinds of runs against the Phillies and he was thowing batting practice to them.

[CrackerJack]

I'm going to gamble and say that much of it was that they were that good for that stretch, but we all know there were many breaks that fell our way also. Look, I'm simply posting as an observer. I'm no expert, and I'm certainly not trying to incite anything on here in a negative way. Please don't take what I'm saying so personally. Just casual observations.


The Reds' beat up on bad teams, they have had an easy schedule, they're a very good team, it's how they do in series like this that concerns me, because it'll be just like this one in October, or last night, with or without Votto.

We can only "hope" they stave off the Cardinals, because a 4-5 game lead ain't all that if they can't take 2 of 3. It's hard not to be a bit concerned.

But losing to the Cardinals in a game they should win like tonight, considering the next two matches, is ridiculously frustrating.

Not sure why some posters can't just understand that and let some things pass and shrug it off, it's baseball, it's the internet, people overreact, people have differing opinions, that's life.

[_Sir_Charles_]

I say we just go to wiffle ball sets. Some nasty curve balls with that, plus you'd have to on some serious PEDs to get big numbers there.

You know, I've always wanted to see some big leaguers play wiffle ball. I think it would be a total blast to watch. Dead serious.

[Reds Fanatic]

Descalso in to play 2nd. Edward Mujica in to pitch

[Brutus]

Meanwhile in Pittsburgh John Axford is in the process of blowing the lead. It is now 6-4 Brewers and the Pirates hasve 2 on with 1 out.

Now the Brewers... there's a team going nowhere this postseason unless they buy tickets.

[OldXOhio]

Cards have a murderous road trip. Everyone relax, only one game.

Stubbs strikes out.

Marty is going through all the men left on base for the Reds without mentioning that Latos was hitting in many of the key spots.

Phillips up.

Must get Stubbs into 8 hole. Soon.

[Kc61]

Problem is when will Baker think about using him again? Catch 22 with him it seems.

Good point. When a guys is designated "long man" he rarely gets a chance. He's like an insurance policy,.

A lot of folks wanted Simon used more in later innings, maybe they were correct.

Anyway if the Reds need him in the next week or so the rust should be off.

[Tom Servo]

I'm going to assume that the most negative people just hate the Cardinals (like most of us do) so much that nothing makes rational sense to them right now.

[Reds Fanatic]

You know, I've always wanted to see some big leaguers play wiffle ball. I think it would be a total blast to watch. Dead serious.

Arroyo would be a great wiffle ball pitcher

[Reds Fanatic]

Bruce strikes out swinging

[Kc61]

Cards haters remember. If they don't get hammered in Cincy, they'll get hammered in Pittsburgh. And if they don't get hammered in Pittsburgh, they'll get hammered in D.C.

[Reds Fanatic]

Cards bullpen has struck out 10 batters

[dman]

The Reds' beat up on bad teams, they have had an easy schedule, they're a very good team, it's how they do in series like this that concerns me, because it'll be just like this one in October, or last night, with or without Votto.

We can only "hope" they stave off the Cardinals, because a 4-5 game lead ain't all that if they can't take 2 of 3. It's hard not to be a bit concerned.

But losing to the Cardinals in a game they should win like tonight, considering the next two matches, is ridiculously frustrating.

Not sure why some posters can't just understand that and let some things pass and shrug it off, it's baseball, it's the internet, people overreact, people have differing opinions, that's life.
Thank you!!! That was much of what I wanted to articulate, but just kept forgetting.

[_Sir_Charles_]

Arroyo would be a great wiffle ball pitcher

LOL. True. I'm picturing crazy stuff like bugs bunny cartoons. :O)

[Reds Fanatic]

Frazier strikes out swinging. 11 of the last 13 outs are strike outs.

[Brutus]

Reds are up to 12 K's. Looks like they're gonna roll over for the rest of tonight.

[George Foster]

Frazier strikes out swinging. 11 of the last 13 outs are strike outs.

that's incredible..

[Kc61]

Cards pitchers struck out five in a row TWICE tonight.

[Reds Fanatic]

Rolen grounds out. 8-5 Cards after 7.

[_Sir_Charles_]

Reds are up to 12 K's. Looks like they're gonna roll over for the rest of tonight.

Yep, it is looking that way. Unfortunately.

[powersackers]

About to go play some Battlefield 3 on PC. That'll turn the mood that this game has placed me in around . Anyone join me?

[Reds Fanatic]

that's incredible..

The Reds hitters looked so good the first 3 innings and incredibly bad after that.

[Brutus]

The Reds' beat up on bad teams, they have had an easy schedule, they're a very good team, it's how they do in series like this that concerns me, because it'll be just like this one in October, or last night, with or without Votto.

We can only "hope" they stave off the Cardinals, because a 4-5 game lead ain't all that if they can't take 2 of 3. It's hard not to be a bit concerned.

But losing to the Cardinals in a game they should win like tonight, considering the next two matches, is ridiculously frustrating.

Not sure why some posters can't just understand that and let some things pass and shrug it off, it's baseball, it's the internet, people overreact, people have differing opinions, that's life.

If they take 2 of 3, it's still a 6-game lead.

Losing to the Cardinals in a game they "should win" is nothing more than losing a game that should have been won. It doesn't hold extra special implications because they lost it. Not sure why some can't understand that.

You're right about one thing though...people do overreact. That's really the most important point here.

[cincrazy]

About to go play some Battlefield 3 on PC. That'll turn the mood that this game has placed me in around . Anyone join me?

I would be in if I had that game.

What's that song say, again? Love is a battlefield? That's certainly the case with the Reds.

[Tony Cloninger]

Reds are up to 12 K's. Looks like they're gonna roll over for the rest of tonight.

Cards bullpen is not this good that they should strikeout this many....hence my inability to separate the cards ability to not roll over and play up to their competition.

[Reds Fanatic]

Descalso grounds out.

[cincrazy]

What the hell was that? Did the lights just go out in the stadium briefly?

[_Sir_Charles_]

What the hell was that? Did the lights just go out in the stadium briefly?

Camera man fell asleep. ;)

[cincrazy]

What the hell was that? Did the lights just go out in the stadium briefly?

Maybe it was just my tv screen.

[Reds Fanatic]

What the hell was that? Did the lights just go out in the stadium briefly?

I think it was just a bad camera but a blackout wouldn't be a bad idea tonight

[cincrazy]

Camera man fell asleep. ;)

Either that or he's drinking heavily.

[Reds Fanatic]

Jay singles

[_Sir_Charles_]

Maybe it was just my tv screen.

Nope. The camera faded out somewhat.

[powersackers]

What the hell was that? Did the lights just go out in the stadium briefly?

It was the grim reaper taking the Reds bats. Cause they are dead.

[Reds Fanatic]

Jay steals 2nd

[powersackers]

I saw it

[cincrazy]

It was the grim reaper taking the Reds bats. Cause they are dead.

:laugh:

[OldXOhio]

Talk about a tale of two games....this team has looked flat awful since the 5th.

[cincrazy]

Well, let's hope Mike Leake doesn't get beat like a pinata tomorrow.

[Reds Fanatic]

Fly out to right. Almost a DP at 3rd but Rolen can't handle the throw.

[Tom Servo]

I suppose it does go back to debate about psychological effect. It is absolutely, 100% just one game out of 162. But whenever a team ends up disappointing, you have people trying to pinpoint the moment it went wrong. Whether that's right or wrong, that's the way it goes. Tonight's (almost guaranteed) loss hurts, and hopefully it's water under the bridge come tomorrow.

[WMR]

They better not lose tomorrow since it's the first game I've attended in like 3 years.

[_Sir_Charles_]

Jay dead to rights at third if Rolen could come up with the ball. Great throw by Bruce.

[Reds Fanatic]

Holliday grounds out to short. 8-5 Cards mid 8th.

[cincrazy]

Let's hope Mike Leake steals a win tomorrow.

Pun intended.

[_Sir_Charles_]

Well, Simon did a 180. Looked pretty solid the last 2.

[Tom Servo]

Well, Simon did a 180. Looked pretty solid the last 2.
I give him props for eating up some innings when we needed it.

[OldXOhio]

Chris Duncan doing ads for an STL sports bar. Good to see he still gets work bc of his last name.

[Kc61]

I suppose it does go back to debate about psychological effect. It is absolutely, 100% just one game out of 162. But whenever a team ends up disappointing, you have people trying to pinpoint the moment it went wrong. Whether that's right or wrong, that's the way it goes. Tonight's (almost guaranteed) loss hurts, and hopefully it's water under the bridge come tomorrow.

If the Reds don't finish off the Cards, their schedule will. I've said it all along and I'll stick to it.

Seven games with the Nationals. Four in L.A. Six with the Pirates. Five more with the Reds. Three in San Diego.

If they win tonight, Cards will have won four in a row. The winning streak will be folllowed by losses.

Anyway, I hope so.

[_Sir_Charles_]

I give him props for eating up some innings when we needed it.

Tom, the picture is too small. Who is that in your avatar? Davis? Larkin?

[Reds Fanatic]

Boggs in to pitch.

Hanigan grounds out to 2nd.

[BCubb2003]

Fly out to right. Almost a DP at 3rd but Rolen can't handle the throw.

That looked like a psyched-out, head-not-in-the-game play, although the runner was in the way of the throw.

[Kc61]

Brewers beat the Pirates by the skin of their teeth, 6-5.

[Reds Fanatic]

The Pirates lost their 4th in a row 6-5 to the Brewers

[powersackers]

Taking Lynn out early looks like a genius move. Have we touched first since?

[Reds Fanatic]

Paul lines out to 2nd.

[Reds Fanatic]

Error on Freese. Finally a baserunner.

[Tom Servo]

Tom, the picture is too small. Who is that in your avatar? Davis? Larkin?
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_bxEuF4LrxkU/SrbXFpYvS7I/AAAAAAAADTU/TaEDe3JBqko/s400/scan-1991Fleer-EricDavis.jpg
It is ED hanging out in outer space.



I plan on changing it because I'm superstitious. :lol:

[_Sir_Charles_]

Ah, thanks. It's been bugging me not being able to figure it out.

[Kc61]

Simon saved the pitching staff tonight, but the two runs he allowed after the Molina homer didn't help things.

Where's Ondrusek when you need him?

[OldXOhio]

Uncle

[Reds Fanatic]

Stubbs strikes out looking. 8-5 Cards after 8

[cincrazy]

Drew Stubbs is a tremendous liability against any righty pitcher.

[powersackers]

Drew Stubbs is a tremendous liability against any righty pitcher.

My eye Dr. Could likely help Drew out.

[smith288]

Does Stubbs understand that if you have two strikes, a pitch down the middle is too close to take?

[OldXOhio]

Drew Stubbs is a tremendous liability against any righty pitcher.

He shouldn't see the field with RHP on the mound. Hope Walt fixes that in the winter

[Brutus]

If the Reds don't finish off the Cards, their schedule will. I've said it all along and I'll stick to it.

Seven games with the Nationals. Four in L.A. Six with the Pirates. Five more with the Reds. Three in San Diego.

If they win tonight, Cards will have won four in a row. The winning streak will be folllowed by losses.

Anyway, I hope so.

I really think you've been putting far too much emphasis on the competition and not enough on the actual teams playing against the competition. The Pirates have been beaten like a pinata lately, while the Cards have been starting to play better baseball. At the end of the day, St. Louis is a better team than Pittsburgh and that matters more than the scheduling.

[_Sir_Charles_]

My eye Dr. Could likely help Drew out.

By poking him in the eye? Duel eye patches? Medical marijuana for his glaucoma? Pinch hitting for him? :beerme:

[Reds Fanatic]

LeCure in to pitch

[Reds Fanatic]

Craig singles to right.

[OldXOhio]

Does every Redbird have 3 hits tonight?

[cincrazy]

I need some medical marijuana right about now. Does marijuana help acid reflux, chest pains from stress, and stomach ulcers?

[smith288]

Craig is gonna be a thorn in the reds side for many years.

[_Sir_Charles_]

Does every Redbird have 3 hits tonight?

Yes. They all came in the 6th inning too.

[Reds Fanatic]

Molina flies out to right.

[Brutus]

I need some medical marijuana right about now. Does marijuana help acid reflux, chest pains from stress, and stomach ulcers?

I need some marijuana too, but it doesn't have to be for medicinal purposes.

:lol:

[OldXOhio]

A lot of banter bw the opposing players on the bases tonight. 2010 seems to be a distant memory.

[cincrazy]

Freese out of the game. The way that baby was swelling up, wouldn't be surprised if he missed the rest of the weekend.

[Kc61]

I really think you've been putting far too much emphasis on the competition and not enough on the actual teams playing against the competition. The Pirates have been beaten like a pinata lately, while the Cards have been starting to play better baseball. At the end of the day, St. Louis is a better team than Pittsburgh and that matters more than the scheduling.

There are very few ways to measure future success or failure in baseball. One important way is to look at the schedule. Home. Away. Playing tough teams. Playing weak teams.

Nobody knows if the Cards or Pirates will be hot or cold going forward. You can guess based on last year or based on stats. But none of these teams is the 27 Yankees, they go hot and cold. Nobody knows which they will be.

So one guideline to look at is schedule.

The Washington Nationals have the best record in baseball. The Cards play them seven times. The Reds and Pirates are done with them. I think that is quite significant.

You obviously don't. Fine. But when the Cards play the Nationals while the Reds are playing the Astros, I'll take my chances with that situation.

[Tom Servo]

Craig is gonna be a thorn in the reds side for many years.
Fingers crossed for testosterone testing results.

[Brutus]

Edit: nm, I just realized Freese was hurt

[cincrazy]

Edit: nm, I just realized Freese was hurt

He's hurt. Was plunked on the hand by a 96 mph Simon fastball.

[_Sir_Charles_]

Not that I'm complaining, but isn't it a bit presumptive to pull one of your better players with a 3-run lead? I would think that one wouldn't assume the game is over. Matheny seems to think it might be.

You mean Freese? I'm sure it's because of how bad his wrist was swelling up after the HBP. Injury concern...not posturing.

Oh, sorry...just saw your edit.

[George Foster]

If they take 2 of 3, it's still a 6-game lead.

Losing to the Cardinals in a game they "should win" is nothing more than losing a game that should have been won. It doesn't hold extra special implications because they lost it. Not sure why some can't understand that.

It does hold special implications because they lost a game they should of won...it's called a 2 game swing in the standings. That's the implication.

[Brutus]

There are very few ways to measure future success or failure in baseball. One important way is to look at the schedule. Home. Away. Playing tough teams. Playing weak teams.

Nobody knows if the Cards or Pirates will be hot or cold going forward. You can guess based on last year or based on stats. But none of these teams is the 27 Yankees, they go hot and cold. Nobody knows which they will be.

So one guideline to look at is schedule.

The Washington Nationals have the best record in baseball. The Cards play them seven times. The Reds and Pirates are done with them. I think that is quite significant.

You obviously don't. Fine. But when the Cards play the Nationals while the Reds are playing the Astros, I'll take my chances with that situation.

What I know is that if you run correlation to future results, one would first want to look at the team playing those games before worrying about who and where they're being played.

[cincrazy]

Brutus you edited that post quicker than a Billy Hamilton sprint down the first base line.

[Brutus]

It does hold special implications because they lost a game they should of won...it's called a 2 game swing in the standings. That's the implication.

That would be true if it was 17-0 or a blown 8-run lead.

No difference.

[Reds Fanatic]

6-4-3 DP. 8-5 Cards mid 9th.

One last chance. Phillips, Ludwick and Bruce due up

[Brutus]

Brutus you edited that post quicker than a Billy Hamilton sprint down the first base line.

That's usually how quick I can realize how stupid I was :)

[_Sir_Charles_]

HBP, walk, dinger to tie it up and send it into extras.

[powersackers]

Does Stubbs understand that if you have two strikes, a pitch down the middle is too close to take?

Don't we all learn that in little league? Stubbs has so many holes in his game. I would've moved him for Victorino and laughed at those who were asking for him.

[Reds Fanatic]

Motte in to pitch

[Kc61]

What I know is that if you run correlation to future results, one would first want to look at the team playing those games before worrying about who and where they're being played.

You can run all the correlations you want.

But nobody, not even you, knows how the Pirates or Cards will be playing over the next weeks. It's a very long season and teams go hot and cold.

A critical element of this is the nature of the opposition. So that's what I tend to look at.

Particularly this year when there are two doormat teams in the Central. Which teams face the Astros and Cubs the most is important. Those teams lose so often.

So we disagree, but I have always focused on schedule in looking to possible future results and will continue to do so. It doesn't mean it works every time, they have to play the games.

But if the Cards can prevail given their schedule, they will have climbed a huge hill.

[dman]

What is incredibly aggravating about this Reds pitching staff is how Jekyll and Hyde they can be, save Cueto. Start to start doesn't bother me, as anything can happen between starts, but how quickly things can turn south for the remaining four starters is baffling. They can look like a Cy Young candidate in one inning and implode the very next inning. I know, that's just baseball, but it still blows my mind at times.

[Reds Fanatic]

Phillips grounds out to 2nd.

[George Foster]

Don't we all learn that in little league? Stubbs has so many holes in his game. I would've moved him for Victorino and laughed at those who were asking for him.

Is there a stat somewhere that can tell me how many times Stubbs has been down 0-2? It seems like 75% of the time.

[Kc61]

Is there a stat somewhere that can tell me how many times Stubbs has been down 0-2? It seems like 75% of the time.

Yeah, but Phillips is constantly down 0-2 also. He can handle it. Stubbs can't.

[Reds Fanatic]

Ludwick lines a single to left

[Brutus]

You can run all the correlations you want.

But nobody, not even you, knows how the Pirates or Cards will be playing over the next weeks. It's a very long season and teams go hot and cold.

A critical element of this is the nature of the opposition. So that's what I tend to look at.

Particularly this year when there are two doormat teams in the Central. Which teams face the Astros and Cubs the most is important. Those teams lose so often.

So we disagree, but I have always focused on schedule in looking to possible future results and will continue to do so. It doesn't mean it works every time, they have to play the games.

But if the Cards can prevail given their schedule, they will have climbed a huge hill.

No, I don't know. But I do know that the talent and ability of the teams is the more important factor first and foremost. So I'm not going to concern myself too with with the schedule when I feel St. Louis is flat out a better team than Pittsburgh. And that's becoming more and more clear by the week.

[Reds Fanatic]

Bruce flies out to left. 2 outs.

[George Foster]

You can run all the correlations you want.

But nobody, not even you, knows how the Pirates or Cards will be playing over the next weeks. It's a very long season and teams go hot and cold.

A critical element of this is the nature of the opposition. So that's what I tend to look at.

Particularly this year when there are two doormat teams in the Central. Which teams face the Astros and Cubs the most is important. Those teams lose so often.

So we disagree, but I have always focused on schedule in looking to possible future results and will continue to do so. It doesn't mean it works every time, they have to play the games.

But if the Cards can prevail given their schedule, they will have climbed a huge hill.

I was thinking the same thing. They still have a West coast road trip with the Padres and Dodgers. If they do it....hats off.

[OldXOhio]

I've counted 4x now that Hrabosky has called this a "statement win" for STL

[Kc61]

No, I don't know. But I do know that the talent and ability of the teams is the more important factor first and foremost. So I'm not going to concern myself too with with the schedule when I feel St. Louis is flat out a better team than Pittsburgh. And that's becoming more and more clear by the week.

I think the Cards are better than the Pirates too. But there is another team on the field too. Sometimes it's the Cubs or Astros. Sometimes it's the Nationals, Reds, Dodgers or Pirates.

I think the identity of that other team is important. The opposition is half the game.

[Tom Servo]

Tying run coming up...

[Reds Fanatic]

Frazier lines a single to left.

[powersackers]

Tease us?

[Tom Servo]

Nope. We're still bad.


Tomorrow...

[Reds Fanatic]

Rolen strikes out swinging. Reds lose 8-5.

[Brutus]

I think the identity of that other team is important. The opposition is half the game.

It's not half the game over a larger sample though. Or at least it's not necessarily half of the equation. If you did probability, which is the best measure of predictive value, you'd find the differences in competition are smaller over a larger sample. Thus the probability of winning 'x' games is goin to rest a lot more on the actual team being predicted because in this case, the difference between the winning expectation of the Pirates and Cardinals is probably much larger than the average of the teams they're facing over the last 35 games.

[George Foster]

I've counted 4x now that Hrabosky has called this a "statement win" for STL

We would feel the same way if the situations were reversed...given the way this game went.

[OldXOhio]

"Statement"....5th time

[Tom Servo]

I've counted 4x now that Hrabosky has called this a "statement win" for STL
I'm pretty sure I'd have found that screwdriver Raisor was talking about earlier and stuck it in my ear a long time ago if I were forced to listen to the STL feed.

[Kc61]

It's not half the game over a larger sample though. If you did probability, which is the best measure of predictive value, you'd find the differences in competition are smaller over a larger sample. Thus the probability of winning 'x' games is goin to rest a lot more on the actual team being predicted.

In other words, the Pythagorean expectation of the Pirates and Cardinals is a lot larger than the average differences in future competition they'd be facing.

The sample I've been focused on is about five or six weeks. I haven't done probability. I'm simply looking at the schedule.

Need Leake and Bailey to come through, get at least one win.

[OldXOhio]

I'm pretty sure I'd have found that screwdriver Raisor was talking about earlier and stuck it in my ear a long time ago if I were forced to listen to the STL feed.

Forced is correct. Reds and MLB feeds blacked out here.

[Brutus]

The sample I've been focused on is about five or six weeks. I haven't done probability. I'm simply looking at the schedule.

Need Leake and Bailey to come through, get at least one win.

But your whole point has been we should root for the Cardinals because the Pirates have an easier schedule. The basis you were making that claim is that you believed the Pirates had a better probability of catching up. You weren't using probability, but that was the insinuation you were making.

But if you added up the actual probability, which ESPN and Baseball Prospectus both does, the Cardinals still have a better chance of catching the Reds despite the schedule. That's because they take into account probability.

[OldXOhio]

We would feel the same way if the situations were reversed...given the way this game went.

If Brantley were that repetitive I'd call him on it too.

[WMR]

Please tell me Leake is going to pitch a gem tomorrow.

[George Foster]

Please tell me Leake is going to pitch a gem tomorrow.

Does anybody know his Daygame/nightgame splits? ERA?

[George Foster]

But if you added up the actual probability, which ESPN and Baseball Prospectus both does, the Cardinals still have a better chance of catching the Reds despite the schedule. That's because they take into account probability.

and the fact the Cards are now 2 games ahead of the Pirates and have picked up 2 games in 24 hours against the Reds. So yes...they have a better chance of catching the Reds over the Pirates as of now.

[Kc61]

But your whole point has been we should root for the Cardinals because the Pirates have an easier schedule. The basis you were making that claim is that you believed the Pirates had a better probability of catching up. You weren't using probability, but that was the insinuation you were making.

But if you added up the actual probability, which ESPN and Baseball Prospectus both does, the Cardinals still have a better chance of catching the Reds despite the schedule. That's because they take into account probability.

I don't have the ability to run probabilities, I wouldn't know where to start. I think they are probably useful but it's impossible to predict accurately how a team will play in the future. Too many peaks and valleys over a season.

So to me schedule becomes very important. But I'm just repeating at this point, so I'm calling the discussion over for today.

[MikeThierry]

If Brantley were that repetitive I'd call him on it too.

People in St. Louis can't even stand the A-Clowns they have running their broadcast. For as much of a history they've had with great broadcasters (Buck, Carey, etc), it's shocking how bad their TV broadcast is. My advice is mute the TV and listen to KMOX. Shannon is at least entertaining and drunk half of the time.

[cincrazy]

Please tell me Leake is going to pitch a gem tomorrow.

Leaks is going to pitch a gem tomorrow :D :cool: :jump: :welcome: :KoolAid: :usa: :rockband: :dancingcool: :pray: :pimp:

[Reds Fanatic]

Does anybody know his Daygame/nightgame splits? ERA?

He has not pitched that much during the day this year only 6 starts against 18 at night. He has a 0-1 record with 5.80 ERA in day games and 5-7 with a 4.20 ERA at night

[MikeThierry]

Leake vs. Garcia... could be a Rolaids night for both sides. Garcia was dominant in his last performance but is wildly inconsistent on the road.

[WMR]

Leaks is going to pitch a gem tomorrow :D :cool: :jump: :welcome: :KoolAid: :usa: :rockband: :dancingcool: :pray: :pimp:

Thanks bro, I'm going to hold you to that.

[OldXOhio]

People in St. Louis can't even stand the A-Clowns they have running their broadcast. For as much of a history they've had with great broadcasters (Buck, Carey, etc), it's shocking how bad their TV broadcast is. My advice is mute the TV and listen to KMOX. Shannon is at least entertaining and drunk half of the time.

Its just such a case study in homerism on the air. Agree with you though, I like Mike Shannon.

[MikeThierry]

Its just such a case study in homerism on the air. Agree with you though, I like Mike Shannon.

To be fair, I think every local broadcast has their fair share of homerism. Listening to the Reds broadcasts at times is enough to start one to drink if you're an outsider.

[MikeThierry]

Mike Shannon is awesome. The other day, he said something that really made me laugh. It was something to the effect of "man, this inning is longer than a grocery list for an orphanage". Got a nice chuckle out of it.

[Roy Tucker]

Went to the game tonight. Boy did that 6th inning blow. It seemed to last an hour and was a nightmare that you couldn't wake up from. Auuggghhhh!!!!!!!!

Reds could never get the big hit to break it open. And after the Cards' big inning, they seemed to just fold. And it was a loooonnnngggg game. Felt sorry for the Larkin thing afterwards. It was 11:30 and we were all tired and disappointed.

[mth123]

To be fair, I think every local broadcast has their fair share of homerism. Listening to the Reds broadcasts at times is enough to start one to drink if you're an outsider.

If you're ralking about Jeff Brantley, you don't really have to be an outsider.

[traderumor]

The most disappointing thing about that loss, beside being to the Cards, is that the rest of the weekend would have been gravy.

Cover first, Mat!

[cumberlandreds]

Two games in a row Reds pitching has blown a 3 run lead. Lets hope this is just a bump in the road and not a year end trend.

[MikeThierry]

If you're ralking about Jeff Brantley, you don't really have to be an outsider.

I was more talking about Brennaman. I can't stand him. I know I might get hate for it (more so than the hate for just being a Cards fan) but I've always found him disingenuous.

[LincolnparkRed]

I was more talking about Brennaman. I can't stand him. I know I might get hate for it (more so than the hate for just being a Cards fan) but I've always found him disingenuous.

You won't get any crap from me. I think he is horrible and doesn't actually enjoy the Reds success. I don't get the online radio package because of him

[Matt700wlw]

For every Marty, there's a George Grande.

[MikeThierry]

You won't get any crap from me. I think he is horrible and doesn't actually enjoy the Reds success. I don't get the online radio package because of him

I was more talking about his son. Marty is just a curmudgeon at times, which I can respect. I don't like Thom.

[mth123]

I was more talking about his son. Marty is just a curmudgeon at times, which I can respect. I don't like Thom.

Not a big Thom fan either. He and Brantley could both go.

[Brutus]

You won't get any crap from me. I think he is horrible and doesn't actually enjoy the Reds success. I don't get the online radio package because of him

I think you need to go back and listen to his call of the Bruce homer in 2010 and the postgame wrap and any notion that he doesn't enjoy the Reds' success will be put to bed. That he's been with this team for over 35 years tells me he cares a great deal about the organization.

[Tom Servo]

I was more talking about his son. Marty is just a curmudgeon at times, which I can respect. I don't like Thom.
Nobody really likes Thom, though he does have a good voice.