Denard Span to the Nats

[HometownHero]

for RHP Alex Meyer

[Salukifan2]

Does this mean the nats are about to shop Morse very aggressively?

[HometownHero]

Does this mean the nats are about to shop Morse very aggressively?

Depends on what happens with Adam LaRoche. If he leaves they will move Morse to 1st if he comes back then they will look to add a big league arm for Morse.

[Todd Gack]

I actually met Meyer in the summer as he's family with friends I have. Great pitcher and even better person. I wish him the best.

[HometownHero]

The new Nats order could be even better in 2013

Denard Span
Jayson Werth
Ryan Zimmerman
Bryce Harper
Michael Morse
Ian Desmond
Danny Espinosa
Kurt Suzuki

[BEETTLEBUG]

Jockertty dragging feet.

[HometownHero]

Jockertty dragging feet.

He's letting the market come back to him, the more places that get their spots locked up faster the more leverage he picks up with the rest of the guys. The way things have played out so far are a positive for us now we just need the Phillies to make a big move and we could end up with a new CF and keep Ludwick.

[MoneyInTheBank]

He's letting the market come back to him, the more places that get their spots locked up faster the more leverage he picks up with the rest of the guys. The way things have played out so far are a positive for us now we just need the Phillies to make a big move and we could end up with a new CF and keep Ludwick.

Exactly right Hero. The more spots that get filled, the cheaper Ludwick, Victorino and the rest of the 2nd or 3rd tier OFers get. This is good for the Reds

[Larkin88]

Good deal for both teams, and good for Span. The Nats are going to be tough here for a while.

I almost wondered if the Reds wouldn't revisit trade talks for Span. Guess that answers my question. (Not to say they didn't)

Walt will work some magic for something, I'm not concerned on that front.

[texasdave]

Exactly right Hero. The more spots that get filled, the cheaper Ludwick, Victorino and the rest of the 2nd or 3rd tier OFers get. This is good for the Reds

Except for the single fact that the Nats, a better team than the Reds to begin with, got a better outfielder than the Reds will likely end up with. And subtracted nothing from the major league roster in the process. Besides that, yes, everything is hunky dory.

[[deleted]]

This is insane to me. The Nats just landed a young, relatively cheap 4 win CF who plays exceptional defense with above average speed and on-base skills (sound like a fit for any other team you know?)... for a 22-year-old who has pitched one year of A-ball. I'm sure Meyer has wonderful potential, but I can't help but see this as an absolute steal.

How did no other team top this deal? Atlanta just gave Upton 75 million dollars - surely that organization had some plus pitching parts to spare; I mean, it's the Braves. We kept hearing about how Minnesota was asking the world for Span. I'm more than a little surprised.

[HometownHero]

Except for the single fact that the Nats, a better team than the Reds to begin with, got a better outfielder than the Reds will likely end up with. And subtracted nothing from the major league roster in the process. Besides that, yes, everything is hunky dory.

They gave up a big time pitching prospect for him something I doubt we would be wanting to do at this point.

[texasdave]

;2781386']This is insane to me. The Nats just landed a young, relatively cheap 4 win CF who plays exceptional defense with above average speed and on-base skills (sound like a fit for any other team you know?)... for a 22-year-old who has pitched one year of A-ball. I'm sure Meyer has wonderful potential, but I can't help but see this as an absolute steal.

How did no other team top this deal? Atlanta just gave Upton 75 million dollars - surely that organization had some plus pitching parts to spare; I mean, it's the Braves. We kept hearing about how Minnesota was asking the world for Span. I'm more than a little surprised.

I have to agree. I thought Span would bring much more. This is why I never propose trades. I, obviously, have no feel for what the relative value of players are.

[MoneyInTheBank]

Except for the single fact that the Nats, a better team than the Reds to begin with, got a better outfielder than the Reds will likely end up with. And subtracted nothing from the major league roster in the process. Besides that, yes, everything is hunky dory.

The only thing Walt Jocketty can control is the Cincinnati Reds. Therefore, his sole focus has to be making the Cincinnati Reds better. All I know is as the budget for the Reds appears to be thin. If teams use trades to fill their OF spots, this only pushes the free agents further down to the Reds budget and that's a good thing for the Reds.

The Nationals absolutely improved themselves on paper with this trade. Nobody has ever won a World Series on paper. The Angels and the Marlins were crowned last offseason with all their splashy moves and it didn't work out. Who knows? Jocketty may have something up his sleeve.

[texasdave]

Sitting back and letting teams that were better than you in 2012 obtain better players than you obtain doesn't seem like a winning recipe to me.

[HometownHero]

;2781386']This is insane to me. The Nats just landed a young, relatively cheap 4 win CF who plays exceptional defense with above average speed and on-base skills (sound like a fit for any other team you know?)... for a 22-year-old who has pitched one year of A-ball. I'm sure Meyer has wonderful potential, but I can't help but see this as an absolute steal.

How did no other team top this deal? Atlanta just gave Upton 75 million dollars - surely that organization had some plus pitching parts to spare; I mean, it's the Braves. We kept hearing about how Minnesota was asking the world for Span. I'm more than a little surprised.

Alex Meyer is a front of the rotation type pitcher or a lock down closer, many people online are talking it up as the Twins winning the trade. He is 50th on MLB's prospect rankings.

http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/prospects/watch/y2012/

[MoneyInTheBank]

;2781386']This is insane to me. The Nats just landed a young, relatively cheap 4 win CF who plays exceptional defense with above average speed and on-base skills (sound like a fit for any other team you know?)... for a 22-year-old who has pitched one year of A-ball. I'm sure Meyer has wonderful potential, but I can't help but see this as an absolute steal.

How did no other team top this deal? Atlanta just gave Upton 75 million dollars - surely that organization had some plus pitching parts to spare; I mean, it's the Braves. We kept hearing about how Minnesota was asking the world for Span. I'm more than a little surprised.

According to Jonathan Mayo, MLB.com's prospect expert, Meyer was the 50th ranked prospect in all of baseball, so we are not talking about some middling prospect. For reference, Stephenson was listed at 55, Cingrani 57 and Corcino 71.

[MoneyInTheBank]

Sitting back and letting teams that were better than you in 2012 obtain better players than you obtain doesn't seem like a winning recipe to me.

What leads you to believe the Reds are "sitting back"?

[texasdave]

What leads you to believe the Reds are "sitting back"?

Hometown Hero:


He's letting the market come back to him, the more places that get their spots locked up faster the more leverage he picks up with the rest of the guys. The way things have played out so far are a positive for us now we just need the Phillies to make a big move and we could end up with a new CF and keep Ludwick.

Your response:

Exactly right Hero.

And, with that, I am out of this conversation. I will just wait and see how it all shakes out.

[MoneyInTheBank]

Hometown Hero:


Your response:


And, with that, I am out of this conversation. I will just wait and see how it all shakes out.

Nice try. There is context to those comments. He's letting the FREE AGENT MARKET come to him. He could have been in Span until the 11th hour. We have no idea. He could be working the phones like a mad man trying to get something done. We don't know. What we do know that free agents are still too expensive, so he's letting that market settle before he dives in.

[Salukifan2]

Exactly right Hero. The more spots that get filled, the cheaper Ludwick, Victorino and the rest of the 2nd or 3rd tier OFers get. This is good for the Reds

Unless they're gone

[MoneyInTheBank]

Unless they're gone

Yeah... but they're not

[texasdave]

Nice try. There is context to those comments. He's letting the FREE AGENT MARKET come to him. He could have been in Span until the 11th hour. We have no idea. He could be working the phones like a mad man trying to get something done. We don't know. What we do know that free agents are still too expensive, so he's letting that market settle before he dives in.

How do you know that he is letting that market settle before he dives in if, as you say, he could have been in on Span until until the 11th hour? Or if, as you say, he could be working the phones like a madman trying to get something done? Neither you nor I know what he is or is not doing. What we do know is that teams that were better than us in 2012 are getting better players so far. And that does not strike me as a good thing.

Furthermore, I did not read anything about FREE AGENT MARKET only in the above comments. So you may want to be a little more specific in your posts.

[Salukifan2]

if you wait to long they might. I don't doubt Jocketty, im just saying it is possible to wait too long, but its not even winter meetings yet so obviously its not too late

[dMaus14]

While they may be a better team than us I don't believe that trade really pertains to us. We both lost in the Division Series and we both had the best records in baseball. I believe in making our team the best in our division because once you get to the playoffs its pure luck. Look at the Cardinals and Tigers from last year. Look at the Cardinals the year before. Anything can happen in the playoffs so all we should worry about is making the Reds the best team in the NL Central every year.

[HometownHero]

While the Nats now have a top of the order hitter and can use Harper to drive in runs they still appear to be losing 100 RBI and 33 HR guy from last year who was 6th in MVP voting and won the SS and GG at 1B or a monster in Michael Morse of the 2012 team so they aren't the same 2012 team getting better. If Harper isn't ready to hold down the 4 hole yet they could run into some issues next year.

[[deleted]]

According to Jonathan Mayo, MLB.com's prospect expert, Meyer was the 50th ranked prospect in all of baseball, so we are not talking about some middling prospect. For reference, Stephenson was listed at 55, Cingrani 57 and Corcino 71.

I'm sure Meyer is very talented, but beside the whole "prospects are just unproven players who could easily flame out" thing, Cingrani seems to be somewhat similarly valued. The big difference being that Cingrani (just a year older) already has ML experience. Would you have said "no" to Span-for-Cingrani straight up? I'm sure some would, but I'd do that trade in a heartbeat. I'm just surprised because we had heard so much about how the asking price for Span was monstrous. Most likely the Twins just like Meyer a lot more than our guys.

[MoneyInTheBank]

How do you know that he is letting that market settle before he dives in if, as you say, he could have been in on Span until until the 11th hour? Or if, as you say, he could be working the phones like a madman trying to get something done? Neither you nor I know what he is or is not doing. What we do know is that teams that were better than us in 2012 are getting better players so far. And that does not strike me as a good thing.

Furthermore, I did not read anything about FREE AGENT MARKET only in the above comments. So you may want to be a little more specific in your posts.

Here was my quote "Exactly right Hero. The more spots that get filled, the cheaper Ludwick, Victorino and the rest of the 2nd or 3rd tier OFers get. This is good for the Reds" I apologize for not pointing out that those guys are free agents.

Here is an article from 2 weeks ago with comments from Jocketty:

http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20121115/SPT04/311150145/Jocketty-opens-up-well-little

And another:

http://www.redlegsreview.com/2012/11/jocketty-reds-look-to-bolster-roster.html?showComment=1354198995908

And Another:

http://cincinnati.reds.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20121031&content_id=40133446&vkey=news_cin&c_id=cin

Look, I'm not saying I didn't want Span or that Jocketty shouldn't go after him to wait for cheap free agents. I happen to think he would have been a good fit but for whatever reason he saw the cost as prohibitive. However, the silver lining I take from this is that as other teams fill OF needs, the leverage of the available free agents goes down. The Reds can't afford $15M a year for Upton or $20M a year for Hamilton and guys like Ludwick are not going to just settle this early in free agency. Their agents are going to try and get as much money for as many years as they can. So maybe a guy like Bourn sees the market dry up and, like other Scott Boras clients, decides to play for a winner on a 1 year deal and give it a shot again next year. The Reds could then squeeze him in on a Ryan Madson type deal. Ludwick may take a 2 year deal with the Reds when there are only 2-3 teams vying for his services rather than 5-6.

I apologize if I came off as snarky before, that was certainly not my intent. I was just trying to understand your point of view

[MoneyInTheBank]

if you wait to long they might. I don't doubt Jocketty, im just saying it is possible to wait too long, but its not even winter meetings yet so obviously its not too late

You're right. I just trust that agents will do their due diligence and give one last call around before their client signs, so I don't feel like it happens very often where a team is totally blindsided by a player signing elsewhere. You know what I mean? I feel like finalists for a player's services have to make the decision themselves to let the player go elsewhere because they are holding firm with their price rather than the player just deciding he wants to play for a certain team whether another team he likes wants to pay more or not

[MoneyInTheBank]

;2781407']I'm sure Meyer is very talented, but beside the whole "prospects are just unproven players who could easily flame out" thing, Cingrani seems to be somewhat similarly valued. The big difference being that Cingrani (just a year older) already has ML experience. Would you have said "no" to Span-for-Cingrani straight up? I'm sure some would, but I'd do that trade in a heartbeat. I'm just surprised because we had heard so much about how the asking price for Span was monstrous. Most likely the Twins just like Meyer a lot more than our guys.

I'm not sure if I would have done that deal or not. Just trying to put some perspective about what kind of prospect we were talking here.

[HometownHero]

;2781407']Most likely the Twins just like Meyer a lot more than our guys.

This is what happen, the Nats been after Span for several years now and never got a deal done. The Twins finally found they guy they wanted enough for him and it got done after failing time and time again.

[texasdave]

I apologize if I came off as snarky before, that was certainly not my intent. I was just trying to understand your point of view.

My point of view is that if teams that were as good as or better than the Reds in 2012 (i.e. Washington and Atlanta) are filling their OF needs with top tier players, then I don't care how many 2nd and 3rd tier OFs that Cincinnati can get cheaply.
I think the Reds were lucky in 2012 to come up with 97 wins. They way outplayed their Pythag, their starters didn't miss a turn and they won't have 15-18 games against the Astros in 2013. I think we need to get the better players to stay in the hunt. Not settle for leftovers.
So, I certainly find no solace in the fact that the big names are signing with other contending teams and the Reds will get some relative table scraps cheaply.

[drowg14]

My point of view is that if teams that were as good as or better than the Reds in 2012 (i.e. Washington and Atlanta) are filling their OF needs with top tier players, then I don't care how many 2nd and 3rd tier OFs that Cincinnati can get cheaply.
I think the Reds were lucky in 2012 to come up with 97 wins. They way outplayed their Pythag, their starters didn't miss a turn and they won't have 15-18 games against the Astros in 2013. I think we need to get the better players to stay in the hunt. Not settle for leftovers.
So, I certainly find no solace in the fact that the big names are signing with other contending teams and the Reds will get some relative table scraps cheaply.

Neither will the Cards/Brewers. Once you get to the playoffs it's a crapshoot. I worry more about what the Cards and Brew Crew do than teams in the NL East.

[texasdave]

Neither will the Cards/Brewers. Once you get to the playoffs it's a crapshoot. I worry more about what the Cards and Brew Crew do than teams in the NL East.

If those teams from the NL East beat you out for Wild Card berth you may want to worry about them. But that's just me.

[HometownHero]

Braves and Reds both trying to trade for LF lead-off type hitter after losing out to Nationals on Denard Span trade efforts
Jim Bowden tweet

[Larkin88]

If those teams from the NL East beat you out for Wild Card berth you may want to worry about them. But that's just me.

Just my two cents. I think you are absolutely right that you need to be wary of the moves other teams - especially the contending ones - make in keeping your competitive margin. To that point, I still think there is enough good talent available for the Reds to improve their leadoff situation and outfield depth this offseason. So I'm going to stay optimistic there.

Span is really the only player who has been taken so far that I would have considered a good fit for the Reds, our payroll, and the chips we have potentially available for a trade. Even if we can't come up with something in free agency, there is enough CF/LF talent available that I think the Reds will be in good position to do something. Would have loved Span myself, but there's other girls at the ball to dance with too.

I think in terms of move reactiveness, there is a point to prioritizing concern about your division way more than you do the league as a whole. To even be in position to play for a Wild Card berth, 9 times out of 10 you will have had to done pretty well against your division rivals, who you see with frequency. With improvements I still expect to come, I think we'll be in good position to do that again.

[MoneyInTheBank]

My point of view is that if teams that were as good as or better than the Reds in 2012 (i.e. Washington and Atlanta) are filling their OF needs with top tier players, then I don't care how many 2nd and 3rd tier OFs that Cincinnati can get cheaply.
I think the Reds were lucky in 2012 to come up with 97 wins. They way outplayed their Pythag, their starters didn't miss a turn and they won't have 15-18 games against the Astros in 2013. I think we need to get the better players to stay in the hunt. Not settle for leftovers.
So, I certainly find no solace in the fact that the big names are signing with other contending teams and the Reds will get some relative table scraps cheaply.

We can debate the luck of the Reds all day and never come to an agreement. I'll just say this, they were projected to win 91 games according to the Pythag. It's not like they were projected to win 70 and won 97.

The Reds obviously found the cost prohibitive on Span. They couldn't pay for Hunter or Upton anyway. Again, I'm not saying "Let all the good free agents go so we can get the scraps!" The point is that other guys may come affordable if they are still sitting around with few options. Or they could get both Ludwick and Victorino. Rather than overpaying (which is what you have to do to sign someone this early in free agency) they may get guys for under market value.

Will they be as good on paper as the Nationals with Ludwick and Victorino? No, but would the Reds be better than the Nationals if they traded for Span and the Nationals went ahead and signed Hamilton or Bourn? Fact is, Washington has a huge checkbook for free agents. The Reds don't. They can't compare themselves to them. They must concentrate on making themselves better.