Phil Castellini surprised that Opening Day tickets still unsold

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Originally Posted by LeatherPants

We will continue to return all of the financial support we receive from our fans, business partners and MLB back into the Reds.

https://www.mlb.com/reds/news/reds-c...bob-castellini

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Yes. Likely BS. But they said the Reds. Not the Reds MLB payroll.

Hoarding wealth notoriously has no consequences on the rest of society at large. For sure.

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Originally Posted by Old school 1983

I do. I happen to be in a situation where I can rub elbows with both the wealthy and the poor. And there are great people in each group and compete piles of garbage in each group. For whatever reason a lot of people have been warped to believe that there’s evil in being successful and grace in being poor.

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Buddy if you honestly believe that the ultra wealthy got that way just by doing good old fashioned honest hard work, I don’t know what to tell you. That’s one of the most naive things I’ve ever heard in my life, to put it as politely as I possibly can.

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Originally Posted by Wonderful Monds

Hoarding wealth notoriously has no consequences on the rest of society at large. For sure.

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There’s really no way to respond to this that’s appropriate on the baseball side of the forum.

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Originally Posted by Wonderful Monds

Buddy if you honestly believe that the ultra wealthy got that way just by doing good old fashioned honest hard work, I don’t know what to tell you. That’s one of the most naive things I’ve ever heard in my life, to put it as politely as I possibly can.

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There’s really no way to respond to this that’s appropriate on the baseball side of the forum.

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Originally Posted by Old school 1983

Yes. Likely BS. But they said the Reds. Not the Reds MLB payroll.

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At this point, I'd do somersaults if they would just spend what they've spent on a percentage basis, what they've spent since Bob took control of the team.

Aside from the three years they dipped below 40% (2016-2018), they've averaged 45.5% of revenue, which would put this year at $132 million. Unless you think they've been losing money for 16 years, there's no reason they shouldn't be there.

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Originally Posted by Old school 1983

Yes. Likely BS. But they said the Reds. Not the Reds MLB payroll.

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Semantics.

It is as this point that I see there's nothing anyone can do to convince you that Red management is run by penurious buttheads who are looking chiefly to make as much money as possible at the cost of my favorite team. I will therefore disengage from interacting with you on this topic. Suffice to say, we disagree about Red management and lying.

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Originally Posted by Bourgeois Zee

Semantics.

It is as this point that I see there's nothing anyone can do to convince you that Red management is run by penurious buttheads who are looking chiefly to make as much money as possible at the cost of my favorite team. I will therefore disengage from interacting with you on this topic. Suffice to say, we disagree about Red management and lying.

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No. It’s not semantics. The Reds aren’t just the big league payroll. We all know this. But it does prove my point. It’s owner/GM speak BS. He said one thing and you heard another. All clubs are trying to make as much money as possible with an exception of a year here and there. Some clubs are basically playing with Monopoly money and others aren’t.

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Originally Posted by Roy Tucker

I base my thoughts on what I see the Reds *do*. I ceased believing what they say. At least for the time being.

If I squint at what they’re doing and do best case/worst case, I can see where they think they might have a successful season. I’m not bought into it, but on a certain planet, I can see how they think they might compete.

So, I’ll wait and watch and hope for the best. I got bigger fish to fry for now so I’m not wasting emotion on it.

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I'm not going to waste emotion on it either -- but the Reds have turned me into an apathetic fan of the club. I still love the sport, but the local product is getting 0 buy in from me until the owners demonstrate they're in this for something beyond enriching their already wealthy bank account.

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Originally Posted by RedTeamGo!

When you run with the Rays model you cannot be fixated on the names on the backs of the jerseys, they are not long for the team in most cases and it is highly unlikely you will see them for more than 5 years. The only name that matters is the one on the front. The Reds try to make both equally important without fully committing to either and as a result they are a perennial 75-80 win team.

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Excellent points. I do believe the Reds are trying to model the Rays. I think they want to win but they want to do it like the Rays do. But doing it here is extra tough on fans. I'm sure Rays fans are disappointed and more than likely angry when their best players get traded/waived/become free agents. But it's an easier sell for their fans. Mainly because they have only been around for a little over 20 years. It's not impossible but it's tough to build up a loyal fan base in 20 years. They have also been a losing team for many of those years. It's also tough to have a loyal fan base when they have been losers for the vast majority of their existence. They also do not draw very well. Some of that is because of where the stadium is but if fans stop going to games, how are they going to know?

For Reds fans it's more difficult because of the history and past success of the organization. There have been generations and generations of Reds fans. We get attached to these players and it hurts when they leave. And this front office has not yet shown the talent for procuring excellent returns like the Rays have. If Nick Krall doesn't get good value on his returns, he's going to be fired and some other lackey is going to take his place and do the same thing and we can only hope he is better than his predecessor.

This front office is not competent enough to pull off a “Rays model”, if they were they wouldn’t have given Miley away for free to a division rival, and then turned around and replaced him with a dude with the same salary but with a junk shoulder. Just for one example.

And nobody should want them to do a Rays model either, there’s a reason they don’t have any fans and it’s not just because of where the Trop is located. Modern sports fandom in general is more tied to individual players and personalities than ever. People aren’t going to stick around when their favorite players get the boot after coming up and being good for their team for just a couple years. It’s such a cynical bummer of a way to run a franchise.

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Originally Posted by Old school 1983

No. It’s not semantics. The Reds aren’t just the big league payroll. We all know this. But it does prove my point. It’s owner/GM speak BS. He said one thing and you heard another. All clubs are trying to make as much money as possible with an exception of a year here and there. Some clubs are basically playing with Monopoly money and others aren’t.

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You've already moved the goalposts so far I'm not sure there's any room left, LOL.

"Tell me once when they lied."

"OK they lied once in 15 years."

"OK but that's not a lie that I'm upset about, I'd be upset if lied about... something else I guess"

"You have to expect that they are lying. Corporate BS or something. GM speak. These phrases somehow justify the lying, so it's not the lying I was asking about. I was obviously asking about lying that is no covered under the corporate BS/GM speak provision."

It's pathetic dude.

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Originally Posted by Wonderful Monds

This front office is not competent enough to pull off a “Rays model”, if they were they wouldn’t have given Miley away for free to a division rival, and then turned around and replaced him with a dude with the same salary but with a junk shoulder. Just for one example.

And nobody should want them to do a Rays model either, there’s a reason they don’t have any fans and it’s not just because of where the Trop is located. Modern sports fandom in general is more tied to individual players and personalities than ever. People aren’t going to stick around when their favorite players get the boot after coming up and being good for their team for just a couple years. It’s such a cynical bummer of a way to run a franchise.

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Just to be clear, when I brought up the rays model, I specifically pointed out you need a competent GM, and the Reds do not have one. I've been banging this drum for well over a year now.

With that said, it is absolutely a cynical way to run a ballclub, but it works if done correctly. Call me crazy, but I would rather see a winning ballclub than a mediocre ballclub that is running out 32 year old Jay Bruce and Brandon Phillips types.

Basically, the way the Rays do it is a busines, they get results. Giving big extensions to fan favorites is fan service that rarely works.

Could the owners likely afford a $200 million payroll? Yes. Will they? No. So, if the answer is no, why screw around and not commit to the only potential way of assembling a winning ballclub with those (artificial as they may be) financial constraints?

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Originally Posted by Wonderful Monds

This front office is not competent enough to pull off a “Rays model”, if they were they wouldn’t have given Miley away for free to a division rival, and then turned around and replaced him with a dude with the same salary but with a junk shoulder. Just for one example.

And nobody should want them to do a Rays model either, there’s a reason they don’t have any fans and it’s not just because of where the Trop is located. Modern sports fandom in general is more tied to individual players and personalities than ever. People aren’t going to stick around when their favorite players get the boot after coming up and being good for their team for just a couple years. It’s such a cynical bummer of a way to run a franchise.

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I live in Tampa. There is a good reason that they have bad attendance trop itself and location is a big one. The marketing department is bad. Also you can not use cash at games and you must have a smart phone to go to games. There are no paper tickets. The viewship of games is very high. I am a baseball fan and I rather go to a Lightning game before a Rays games. Technically I am closer to St Pete where the Rays play than I am Lightning. It is easier to get to and leave. The parking is better and there is more to do near the park. The experience in Amalie area is also way better than Tropicana. The Buccaneers and Lightning draw way better because they are way better experiences. It is way better to just watch the Rays on TV than go through the trouble to go to the game is person.

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Originally Posted by RedTeamGo!

Just to be clear, when I brought up the rays model, I specifically pointed out you need a competent GM, and the Reds do not have one. I've been banging this drum for well over a year now.

With that said, it is absolutely a cynical way to run a ballclub, but it works if done correctly. Call me crazy, but I would rather see a winning ballclub than a mediocre ballclub that is running out 32 year old Jay Bruce and Brandon Phillips types.

Basically, the way the Rays do it is a busines, they get results. Giving big extensions to fan favorites is fan service that rarely works.

Could the owners likely afford a $200 million payroll? Yes. Will they? No. So, if the answer is no, why screw around and not commit to the only potential way of assembling a winning ballclub with those (artificial as they may be) financial constraints?

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I mean it’s not out of the realm of possibility to take an in between approach. And if it is for the Reds, that’s why I’m out until they pull their heads out of their ass, and based on the news tidbit that started this thread I’m not the only one.

They can and should field a 130-150 million dollar payroll every year. That’s well within the means if you don’t view your franchise solely as a personal ATM.

I just have zero interest in being invested in a sports team where you inherently are told you shouldn’t ever have a favorite player because they will be gone immediately. It’s just not for me. More power to anyone who can make that work for themselves, but I have never been a “just rooting for the laundry” type of fan. Both the team itself and the individual players are equally important to me.

If the Reds are just going to trade Hunter Greene for example as soon as he hits his first arb year instead of investing some money in him, then this team is just for me.

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Originally Posted by NachoMan

You've already moved the goalposts so far I'm not sure there's any room left, LOL.

"Tell me once when they lied."

"OK they lied once in 15 years."

"OK but that's not a lie that I'm upset about, I'd be upset if lied about... something else I guess"

"You have to expect that they are lying. Corporate BS or something. GM speak. These phrases somehow justify the lying, so it's not the lying I was asking about. I was obviously asking about lying that is no covered under the corporate BS/GM speak provision."

It's pathetic dude.

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I’ll remember next time to spell out all of my thoughts in a 10 paragraph long post next time to start. Those had been my thoughts and feelings from my first post on the subject. Next time I’ll know better and spell everything out in a treatise my first post rather than having an organic conversation so all goalposts are safely secured