Reds Trade And Free Agent Rumours 2023-24 Offseason

Every team is shopping, they all tell the fans, press that. That's not to say that they will get someone, spend more money than they ever have before or even trade for someone good. They are all shopping, we are all shopping, we are all limited by the budget we have , just like the Reds.

If the Reds broadcasted their budget then we could do the math and when they say "We are shopping" you could say, oh I see you are not shopping at Nordstroms, you are shopping at Rinks.

The Kansas City A's shopped all through the 50's, obtaining numerous second-rate players and they possessed a healthy turnover rate of players, they just were not good.

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Originally Posted by Rdirtypirates

Yep, they will dig up whatever scraps are left and the same people will compliment how they were shrewd and now they have money at the deadline etc. I mean it is the same thing over and over from the Reds and the same apologetic posters.

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Yeah. The same apologetic posters that saw the writing on the wall and understood a tear down was needed. The same ones that said the rebuild could bear fruit. And the same ones that caught hell from everyone else here for even suggesting that the Reds could possibly win the first trade with Seattle or that the rebuild would work. I’m not calling scoreboard yet, but things seem to be trending in the direction of those “apologists” being correct. Maybe when someone disagrees with you they aren’t an apologist for the front office. Maybe they just have a different view of what’s going on in the situation. Everyone here wants to see the Reds win. No one is cheering for the Castellini’s pocketbook. When someone calls someone else a liar, try bringing evidence other than they said we’d do this and then this didn’t happen. We all wish things were that black and white but they aren’t especially with as many moving parts as you have in a baseball off-season.

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Originally Posted by westofyou

Every team is shopping, they all tell the fans, press that. That's not to say that they will get someone, spend more money than they ever have before or even trade for someone good. They are all shopping, we are all shopping, we are all limited by the budget we have , just like the Reds.

If the Reds broadcasted their budget then we could do the math and when they say "We are shopping" you could say, oh I see you are not shopping at Nordstroms, you are shopping at Rinks.

The Kansas City A's shopped all through the 50's, obtaining numerous second-rate players and they possessed a healthy turnover rate of players, they just were not good.

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The Reds only shop at Rinks. It's amazing they went out of business.

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Originally Posted by Falls City Beer

The Reds only shop at Rinks. It's amazing they went out of business.

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It's true, so many others do too. The White Sox are the most egregious, their largest FA contract ever was $75 million contract with Andrew Benintendi. That boggles my mind, they are a huge market team.

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Originally Posted by Old school 1983

You’re saying he’s a lie when you have no idea what happened behind the scenes. It’s the equivalent saying I’ll be there at 2, leaving on time, getting caught in a traffic jam that wasn’t reasonably foreseeable and then getting called a liar because you were late. You didn’t everything possible to be on time, but it just didn’t work. I think they went after a SS a few years back and it didn’t work. If they just wanted to be cheap,Suarez would have been named the SS day one, not right before spring. And I think they looked during the deadline and prices were exorbitant. This was evidenced by the fact that they had no qualms about picking guys off of waivers later. Which is also evidence they are willing to spend within reason this off-season. Bottom line, just because something didn’t happen that you said would, doesn’t make you a liar.

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Let me clarify. Krall said they were in on all the major FA SS.. I don't remember his exact quote, but he said they were seriously pursuing them. That means the Reds were making offers in market value range, right? I mean, if I go to a car dealership and tell them I'm seriously interested in buying a new Camry and can pay cash today, and the salesman spends an hour with me, then I tell him.. Well, I only have $200.. Well, I was never a serious buyer and I lied to the salesman, because common sense says I'm not getting a new car for $200.

Krall said they were in on all the major FA SS.. In the end, the Reds targeted a utility man, I can't remember the exact numbers.. The Reds offered him 2 or 3 million plus the chance to start. He ended up taking 5 or 6 million from the Mets instead.. Again, Reds were not even willing to offer him close to market value.. They were lying.

Now this winter, Krall is being careful with his words, he's hinting that the Reds are going to be looking to add pitching, but he's not committing to anything. I actually respect that more than what he's done in the past... So yes, I agree with you, Krall has not lied this winter. But he has definitely lied in the past.

And then we can get into PhilC's entire presentation last spring, that was full of lies (75% of teams eliminated from the playoffs on day 1, when 40% of the teams make the playoffs). And then the classic line about how the Reds barely break even every year and are run as a non profit, that the Reds have been using ever since Marge was forced out.

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Originally Posted by Old school 1983

Yeah. The same apologetic posters that saw the writing on the wall and understood a tear down was needed. The same ones that said the rebuild could bear fruit. .

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It hasn't bore fruit yet. Unless Krall adds some talent, we will most likely miss the expanded playoffs again.
Honestly, the team really isn't that much better off than it was at the end of 2021.
The 2021 team finished with a .512 winning percentage
The 2023 team finished with a .506 winning percentage.

The 2023 team had a lower payroll, but that doesn't help us as fans unless the team spends money to add talent.

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Originally Posted by Old school 1983

Yeah. The same apologetic posters that saw the writing on the wall and understood a tear down was needed. The same ones that said the rebuild could bear fruit. And the same ones that caught hell from everyone else here for even suggesting that the Reds could possibly win the first trade with Seattle or that the rebuild would work. I’m not calling scoreboard yet, but things seem to be trending in the direction of those “apologists” being correct. Maybe when someone disagrees with you they aren’t an apologist for the front office. Maybe they just have a different view of what’s going on in the situation. Everyone here wants to see the Reds win. No one is cheering for the Castellini’s pocketbook. When someone calls someone else a liar, try bringing evidence other than they said we’d do this and then this didn’t happen. We all wish things were that black and white but they aren’t especially with as many moving parts as you have in a baseball off-season.

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I would definitely not call scoreboard on a firesale or an 82 win team that choked away a postseason berth. I'm glad they didn't do a slow motion firesale a la 2015, but they sent out two great starters and got some offense back. Again, narratively, fans see this as "the time" to add pieces, but I don't buy it. I think the current payroll is the endgame. What they do from here is sort of futz around at the margins and pray.

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Originally Posted by Old school 1983

Yeah. The same apologetic posters that saw the writing on the wall and understood a tear down was needed.

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The Reds were good for 6 weeks last year, the rest of the season they were mediocre at best. After the ASB they went 32-39.

I wouldn't dunk it yet.

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Originally Posted by Kinsm

The Reds were good for 6 weeks last year, the rest of the season they were mediocre at best. After the ASB they went 32-39.

I wouldn't dunk it yet.

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Cherry picking out a section of a season’s stats has always been one of the most dishonest and meaningless points one could make.

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Originally Posted by 757690

Cherry picking out a section of a season’s stats has always been one of the most dishonest and meaningless points one could make.

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Did I say something that was incorrect?

I'm sure you would pick out those 6 weeks and say the club is an .800 club.

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Originally Posted by Kinsm

Did I say something that was incorrect?

I'm sure you would pick out those 6 weeks and say the club is an .800 club.

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No I would not. I would look at the Reds full season record.

There are plenty statements that are factually true, and rather meaningless. “Take out the games the Reds won on odd number Thursdays, and they are a mediocre team” may be factually correct, but tells nothing of meaning.

People saying the Reds haven’t had success in 30 years. Have you forgotten 1999, 2010, 2012, 2020, and last year’s historic season? If you’re gonna go out on a limb to criticize a baseball team or their front office, at least check their history first before you embarrass yourself.

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Originally Posted by 757690

No I would not. I would look at the Reds full season record.

There are plenty statements that are factually true, and rather meaningless. “Take out the games the Reds won on odd number Thursdays, and they are a mediocre team” may be factually correct, but tells nothing of meaning.

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There's a continuum of meaningfulness to meaninglessness. kinsm's data point is on the more relevant end of meaning. Knowing how long the team is able to extend excellent play is a meaningful data point.

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Originally Posted by 757690

Cherry picking out a section of a season’s stats has always been one of the most dishonest and meaningless points one could make.

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What he said was true.
The team overall was about .500, and the reason for that was the hot 6 weeks.
Krall needs to look at that and figure out why they did so poorly after the allstar break.
It's actually pretty obvious.. rotation was not very good, bullpen was gassed.
I think Krall actually knows that, but wants to deny it publicly, as an excuse not to make some big moves. He's not stupid, but he and PhilC want to keep payroll down and horde prospects. The reason they want to horde prospects is because it keeps payroll down, not because it's a formula for winning. They figured out that a team of kids that plays about 500 will draw 2 million fans and get good TV ratings, so that's likely the business plan until it fails to work.

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Originally Posted by 757690

No I would not. I would look at the Reds full season record.

There are plenty statements that are factually true, and rather meaningless. “Take out the games the Reds won on odd number Thursdays, and they are a mediocre team” may be factually correct, but tells nothing of meaning.

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I think if your argument depends on 6 weeks of a 6-month season, I think it pertinent to point out that maybe those 6 weeks are an aberration.

Not to be a jerk, but can we get this thread back to "Reds Trade and Free Agent Rumors "?

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Originally Posted by Redsfan6272

Not to be a jerk, but can we get this thread back to "Reds Trade and Free Agent Rumors "?

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There are none currently.

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Originally Posted by Falls City Beer

I would definitely not call scoreboard on a firesale or an 82 win team that choked away a postseason berth. I'm glad they didn't do a slow motion firesale a la 2015, but they sent out two great starters and got some offense back. Again, narratively, fans see this as "the time" to add pieces, but I don't buy it. I think the current payroll is the endgame. What they do from here is sort of futz around at the margins and pray.

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I’m not calling scorecard. But right now it’s trending away from the forever suck that a good deal of the board predicted.

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Originally Posted by REDREAD

Let me clarify. Krall said they were in on all the major FA SS.. I don't remember his exact quote, but he said they were seriously pursuing them. That means the Reds were making offers in market value range, right? I mean, if I go to a car dealership and tell them I'm seriously interested in buying a new Camry and can pay cash today, and the salesman spends an hour with me, then I tell him.. Well, I only have $200.. Well, I was never a serious buyer and I lied to the salesman, because common sense says I'm not getting a new car for $200.

Krall said they were in on all the major FA SS.. In the end, the Reds targeted a utility man, I can't remember the exact numbers.. The Reds offered him 2 or 3 million plus the chance to start. He ended up taking 5 or 6 million from the Mets instead.. Again, Reds were not even willing to offer him close to market value.. They were lying.

Now this winter, Krall is being careful with his words, he's hinting that the Reds are going to be looking to add pitching, but he's not committing to anything. I actually respect that more than what he's done in the past... So yes, I agree with you, Krall has not lied this winter. But he has definitely lied in the past.

And then we can get into PhilC's entire presentation last spring, that was full of lies (75% of teams eliminated from the playoffs on day 1, when 40% of the teams make the playoffs). And then the classic line about how the Reds barely break even every year and are run as a non profit, that the Reds have been using ever since Marge was forced out.

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There are millions of Camry’s are you’re not bidding against anyone else and the price is fixed. It’s more like buying a house. Say you want to buy in a certain area…let’s call that area shortstop….in a certain price range….top of the market. Let’s call it $750k. There are 5 $750K houses for sale in the area and 7 or so buyers. You have 750-775 to spend. You could possibly be putting in competitive offers for each one and still be outbid. You could have a situation where you actually put in the highest bid, but the other guy waived inspections….which I would say is the equivalent of a player wanting to play somewhere else despite the money. No matter what in that situation, 2 guys will be left out at the end of the day…regardless of how much of a real effort they made. Are they liars? Or was that just how the chips fell?

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Originally Posted by Old school 1983

There are millions of Camry’s are you’re not bidding against anyone else and the price is fixed. It’s more like buying a house. Say you want to buy in a certain area…let’s call that area shortstop….in a certain price range….top of the market. Let’s call it $750k. There are 5 $750K houses for sale in the area and 7 or so buyers. You have 750-775 to spend. You could possibly be putting in competitive offers for each one and still be outbid. You could have a situation where you actually put in the highest bid, but the other guy waived inspections….which I would say is the equivalent of a player wanting to play somewhere else despite the money. No matter what in that situation, 2 guys will be left out at the end of the day…regardless of how much of a real effort they made. Are they liars? Or was that just how the chips fell?

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I think this is a very plausible and clear analogy. The problem I have is that these chips always seem to fall against the Reds best interest. Makes me think it's more than simply the chips not always falling the right way. I can see that happening a couple of times. I don't see it happening for 30 years.

You have three Chevy Novas. One has a million dollars in its trunk and the other two have petrified pumpkin pies from last year’s Thanksgiving. You have to pick one and eat whatever is in the trunk. The Reds are the Chevy Nova with the million dollars. You are the Chevy Nova with the petrified pumpkin pie and he is the other Chevy Nova with a petrified pumpkin pie. Who is he? Exactly. No one knows. What some Reds fan here are doing when they say the Reds aren’t doing an awesome job is saying they know who “he” is. But that’s unknowable and it’s a lie to say you know who he is. What we do know is that a million dollars may not taste delicious to some but you are a Chevy Nova with petrified pumpkin pie in the trunk and your options are to eat that million dollars or choose yourself and eat your own petrified pumpkin pie or choose the unknown and eat their petrified pumpkin pie. If you ask me, I’d eat a million dollars over petrified pumpkin pie any day and I know there are people who will eat petrified pumpkin pie and then tell us it’s our fault they chose wrong.

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Originally Posted by Old school 1983

You’re assuming all of that. That’s probably why Krall didn’t come out and say we’re going to do this that or the other specifically. If some of it doesn’t come to fruition, he’s a liar and never tried.

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Exactly. Lol. No answer.

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You’re doing a touchdown dance because I didn’t deem it necessary to remind you of the litany of failures and promises not kept?

You have the burden of proof here vis a vis the front office’s actions this off-season. Or lack thereof.

We’ll see how it goes. Lol.

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Originally Posted by 757690

Even if Wacha and Miley pitch to their peripherals, they will provide 4-4.5 ERA over 100+ innings. That’s a huge improvement over the back of the rotation for the Reds, and better than most #4 or 5 starters.

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We’re already pulling hair over Michael Wacha and Wade Miley.


This is a damaged fanbase.

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Originally Posted by LeatherPants

There are none currently.

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Well, this is out there, but I can't tell if it's an informed rumor or idle speculation. I think it's based on something Leatherpants wrote in the Athletic.

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Nati Sports
@Nati_Sports
The #Reds are engaged in active trade talks with the Boston Red Sox regarding 2B Jonathan India (Nothing imminent right now)

The last time the Reds traded with the Red Sox they dealt Tommy Pham in 2022 for Cincinnati native (and current Red) Nick Northcutt

RHP Tanner Houck is a name rumored and the Reds would require prospects additionally.

RHP Wikelman Gonzales is an intriguing prospect from the Reds perspective.

The Red Sox possess a relatively deep farm system and have room to add free agents this cycle.
11:42 AM · Nov 21, 2023

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https://twitter.com/Nati_Sports/stat...04676355129372

Cardinals now sign Kyle Gibson to a 1 year contract.

Wacha and Miley looking better and better.

Houck seems like a decent swing man type(4.17 ERA as a SP, 2.68 as a RP) and has 4 years of control. Also has excellent SO and ground ball rates(25% and 51%). If the Reds make a move like this they better be bringing in a decent offensive piece or two.

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Originally Posted by mth123

I think this is a very plausible and clear analogy. The problem I have is that these chips always seem to fall against the Reds best interest. Makes me think it's more than simply the chips not always falling the right way. I can see that happening a couple of times. I don't see it happening for 30 years.

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The Reds haven’t played in that upper end of the market playground every year for the past 30 years. They’ve likely only done it a couple times. Maybe they got the guy in the area of the field they were playing in and it didn’t work. Or maybe it did. That’s why this year is a unique opportunity. They can play in that upper end market if they so choose given the payroll space they have open. Believe it or not, I hope they do mama come away a better team for it.

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Originally Posted by Old school 1983

Yeah. The same apologetic posters that saw the writing on the wall and understood a tear down was needed. The same ones that said the rebuild could bear fruit. And the same ones that caught hell from everyone else here for even suggesting that the Reds could possibly win the first trade with Seattle or that the rebuild would work.

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Respectfully, my issue with these statements is that it portrays the situation as binary. Either you supported a complete teardown and you get to take credit for all of the talent that came back or that you did not support a complete teardown and get to take credit for none of the talent that came back.

I don't think the level of unproven talent coming back was ever in question but a boatload of prime proven talent went out the door to get there. I don't think it needed to go as far as it did.

Sure, I'll take an L on the Suarez/Winker trade. I hated it as I did not anticipate Winker's impending cliff. If you did, congrats.

I sure would have liked to have Gray and/or Castillo in the rotation last season though.

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Originally Posted by Old school 1983

There are millions of Camry’s are you’re not bidding against anyone else and the price is fixed. It’s more like buying a house. Say you want to buy in a certain area…let’s call that area shortstop….in a certain price range….top of the market. Let’s call it $750k. There are 5 $750K houses for sale in the area and 7 or so buyers. You have 750-775 to spend. You could possibly be putting in competitive offers for each one and still be outbid. You could have a situation where you actually put in the highest bid, but the other guy waived inspections….which I would say is the equivalent of a player wanting to play somewhere else despite the money. No matter what in that situation, 2 guys will be left out at the end of the day…regardless of how much of a real effort they made. Are they liars? Or was that just how the chips fell?

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The analogy you have does not work, because all the premium FA shortstops were going to cost MINIMUM of 10 million/year.
Reds only had 2-3 million to spend, based on what they offered that guy that ended up going to the Mets.
Reds can claim they "talked to the agents", but they had no serious offer.
It's like when Bowden joked that he offered Kevin Brown a 10 year deal, for one million per year. (Or something similar to that, it was a joke he told).

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Originally Posted by WrongVerb

Well, this is out there, but I can't tell if it's an informed rumor or idle speculation. I think it's based on something Leatherpants wrote in the Athletic.

https://twitter.com/Nati_Sports/stat...04676355129372

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If they manage to get Houck plus the 80 grade name of Wikelman Gonzales for Jonathan India, I will consider that a pretty big win.

Houck fits as a middle relief bullpenner.

I hate to say it but I don't think the Reds are going to be very active in trying to get top tier pitching whether it's by free agency or trade. After all the bigger salaries...errrr names have gone off the market, Krall and Co. will look for 3rd tier starters and rely on the youngsters currently penciled in to the rotation much like last year. But we all knew how that worked out. The excuses will be similar or identical to why they weren't more active at the trade deadline. They could prove me wrong but I don't think so.

That said, quite a few fans want the Reds to sign someone or make a deal no matter what. They are like junkies needing their next fixes. I believe some are sincere in wanting the Reds to improve but is just acquiring anyone a solution? The Cardinals signed Lance Lynn. Would that have been a good idea or would that have been better than nothing? Of course they have the money to do it but is that the best use of that? And piggybacking off the Lynn example, I think some want deals so they can criticize management for making that deal. Worst. Deal. Ever. You tend to get more attention by being negative than positive. The Reds will do what the Reds will do. I think it's highly unlikely we as fans can shame them into spending like a drunken sailor on leave.

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Originally Posted by Chip R

I hate to say it but I don't think the Reds are going to be very active in trying to get top tier pitching whether it's by free agency or trade. After all the bigger salaries...errrr names have gone off the market, Krall and Co. will look for 3rd tier starters and rely on the youngsters currently penciled in to the rotation much like last year. But we all knew how that worked out. The excuses will be similar or identical to why they weren't more active at the trade deadline. They could prove me wrong but I don't think so.

That said, quite a few fans want the Reds to sign someone or make a deal no matter what. They are like junkies needing their next fixes. I believe some are sincere in wanting the Reds to improve but is just acquiring anyone a solution? The Cardinals signed Lance Lynn. Would that have been a good idea or would that have been better than nothing? Of course they have the money to do it but is that the best use of that? And piggybacking off the Lynn example, I think some want deals so they can criticize management for making that deal. Worst. Deal. Ever. You tend to get more attention by being negative than positive. The Reds will do what the Reds will do. I think it's highly unlikely we as fans can shame them into spending like a drunken sailor on leave.

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Translation: Reds are going to be the Reds no matter how much people wish they would not be the Reds, because folks that's what the Reds are all about and have always been, because being the Reds is what the Reds do best.

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Originally Posted by Chip R

I hate to say it but I don't think the Reds are going to be very active in trying to get top tier pitching whether it's by free agency or trade. After all the bigger salaries...errrr names have gone off the market, Krall and Co. will look for 3rd tier starters and rely on the youngsters currently penciled in to the rotation much like last year. But we all knew how that worked out. The excuses will be similar or identical to why they weren't more active at the trade deadline. They could prove me wrong but I don't think so.

That said, quite a few fans want the Reds to sign someone or make a deal no matter what. They are like junkies needing their next fixes. I believe some are sincere in wanting the Reds to improve but is just acquiring anyone a solution? The Cardinals signed Lance Lynn. Would that have been a good idea or would that have been better than nothing? Of course they have the money to do it but is that the best use of that? And piggybacking off the Lynn example, I think some want deals so they can criticize management for making that deal. Worst. Deal. Ever. You tend to get more attention by being negative than positive. The Reds will do what the Reds will do. I think it's highly unlikely we as fans can shame them into spending like a drunken sailor on leave.

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Lynn would have been a mistake (as I think it will prove to be for the Cardinals). I wouldn't have been upset if the Reds had signed Kyle Gibson, but I think you can still find someone of his caliber who can eat as many innings for less than the 12 mil that the Cards paid. And I hope the Reds do find someone like that.

I do not have faith that they'll do something big.

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Originally Posted by Larry Schuler

You have three Chevy Novas. One has a million dollars in its trunk and the other two have petrified pumpkin pies from last year’s Thanksgiving. You have to pick one and eat whatever is in the trunk. The Reds are the Chevy Nova with the million dollars. You are the Chevy Nova with the petrified pumpkin pie and he is the other Chevy Nova with a petrified pumpkin pie. Who is he? Exactly. No one knows. What some Reds fan here are doing when they say the Reds aren’t doing an awesome job is saying they know who “he” is. But that’s unknowable and it’s a lie to say you know who he is. What we do know is that a million dollars may not taste delicious to some but you are a Chevy Nova with petrified pumpkin pie in the trunk and your options are to eat that million dollars or choose yourself and eat your own petrified pumpkin pie or choose the unknown and eat their petrified pumpkin pie. If you ask me, I’d eat a million dollars over petrified pumpkin pie any day and I know there are people who will eat petrified pumpkin pie and then tell us it’s our fault they chose wrong.

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But what if the host opens one of the Novas containing a pumpkin pie and offers you a choice to switch?

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Originally Posted by Chip R

I hate to say it but I don't think the Reds are going to be very active in trying to get top tier pitching whether it's by free agency or trade. After all the bigger salaries...errrr names have gone off the market, Krall and Co. will look for 3rd tier starters and rely on the youngsters currently penciled in to the rotation much like last year. But we all knew how that worked out. The excuses will be similar or identical to why they weren't more active at the trade deadline. They could prove me wrong but I don't think so.

That said, quite a few fans want the Reds to sign someone or make a deal no matter what. They are like junkies needing their next fixes. I believe some are sincere in wanting the Reds to improve but is just acquiring anyone a solution? The Cardinals signed Lance Lynn. Would that have been a good idea or would that have been better than nothing? Of course they have the money to do it but is that the best use of that? And piggybacking off the Lynn example, I think some want deals so they can criticize management for making that deal. Worst. Deal. Ever. You tend to get more attention by being negative than positive. The Reds will do what the Reds will do. I think it's highly unlikely we as fans can shame them into spending like a drunken sailor on leave.

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I want the Reds to improve. There’s no reason—other than cheapness—why they can’t. The Reds have painted themselves into a plausible deniability corner. They’ve never had a payroll this low, relatively speaking, in this century. Shrugging and saying, “We couldn’t do it” means one thing only: They’re inactive because they’re insanely cheap for cheap’s sake. No other excuse holds water.

Red Sox Two Potential Trade Targets At Second Base

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There is no doubt that second base is a priority for the Red Sox as they have already engaged in trade talks with the Reds about Jonathan India and with the Yankees regarding Gleyber Torres.

This is not the first time that the Red Sox have been linked to Torres.
As unlikely as it might be that Brian Cashman and Breslow would work together to hash out a deal, WEEI’s Rob Bradford reported earlier this month that the Red Sox have long been interested in the Yankees infielder.

A potential swap centered on Alex Verdugo could placate the Yankees if Boston was fixated on bringing Torres aboard.

It might take a bit more to convince the Reds to part with India, considering the 26-year-old infielder still has another two years of arbitration in place.

Given the team control still in place with India’s contract, Reds president of baseball operations Nick Krall said last week that the organization is not necessarily looking to move its second baseman.

“I wouldn’t say we are motivated (to trade India),” Krall said. “If a deal comes around, we have to be open to anything."

But if Breslow and the Red Sox are motivated enough to acquire India, a deep prospect pool might be enough to entice the Reds to sit at the negotiating table.

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https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/oth...se/ar-AA1kjxmh

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Originally Posted by MoneyInTheBank

Respectfully, my issue with these statements is that it portrays the situation as binary. Either you supported a complete teardown and you get to take credit for all of the talent that came back or that you did not support a complete teardown and get to take credit for none of the talent that came back.

I don't think the level of unproven talent coming back was ever in question but a boatload of prime proven talent went out the door to get there. I don't think it needed to go as far as it did.

Sure, I'll take an L on the Suarez/Winker trade. I hated it as I did not anticipate Winker's impending cliff. If you did, congrats.

I sure would have liked to have Gray and/or Castillo in the rotation last season though.

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It’s not a binary. If you remember a couple years back when it all went down I was calling for nuance and objective analysis. Once the the apologist stuff starts, I’ll strongly advocate in a fashion that might make it come off as a binary.

And I’d have loved to have Castillo and Gray last year…but even the widest eyed of optimists didn’t se the rebuild working as quickly as it did to keeping them would have a potential playoff making impact. The arguments to keep them were pretty much accompanied with the Reds are cheap idiots for not. I don’t think I saw a single the Reds should have kept them for a 2023 playoff run

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Originally Posted by REDREAD

The analogy you have does not work, because all the premium FA shortstops were going to cost MINIMUM of 10 million/year.
Reds only had 2-3 million to spend, based on what they offered that guy that ended up going to the Mets.
Reds can claim they "talked to the agents", but they had no serious offer.
It's like when Bowden joked that he offered Kevin Brown a 10 year deal, for one million per year. (Or something similar to that, it was a joke he told).

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How do do you know they only had 3-4 to spend? Unless you had inside info, you don’t. The guy that went to the Mets was Jonathan Villar. He wasn’t the top of the market. Why would they give him $10? It’s like saying why not pay the full 775 for the house I mentioned earlier when you know it’ll only appraise for 750. You’ll be left holding the bag.

The Reds aren’t that stupid. They aren’t going to offer a 10 million dollar player 2 million dollars in a competitive environment. That’s just a waste of everyone’s time. No one offers $200 for a new car like in your example because it’s absurd.

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Originally Posted by Old school 1983

The Reds aren’t that stupid.

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I'm going to stop you there.

The real bummer about what's about to transpire (nothing) is that this is one of the richest free-agent markets for mid-level starting pitchers in a while. There are a lot of these guys that fit the Reds' needs, and it perfectly coincides with all this money coming off the books and a homegrown youth movement on the upswing.

All we'll get from Krall is how he tried but didn't have any luck, and anyway, we need to reserve innings for Brandon Williamson.