Phil Castellini surprised that Opening Day tickets still unsold

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by The Operator

They’ve won exactly as many playoff series as during Carl Lindner’s tenure and had more than twice the time to do it in.


I think we all need to let that sink in.

---

That’s not fair. The Reds from 2010-2013 were one of the best teams in baseball during that time. This ownership did what was necessary to win and were smart about it. That team was easily my favorite teams to watch. I was proud to be a Reds fan during those years.

And the last two years the Reds have been competitive and fun to watch. No team during the Linder years was fun to watch or every any good. This ownership has been miles better than the Linder ownership.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kaldaniels

Exactly. The franchise is an embarrassment. The BRM was 50 years ago.

I’m not saying relocation is all that likely, but the protective dome that once understandably would ensure that the Reds always stay in Cincinnati is now gone.

---

You do raise an interesting point. I do firmly believe that Tampa, Oakland, Pittsburgh, Cleveland, Miami and possibly Baltimore would make a lot more sense from a relocation standpoint. I also think that The Reds moving *should* create enough of a ruckus that the power that be would do something.

But…

This ain’t our grandfathers’ MLB anymore. This is Manfred-ball. We are watching a game where playoff races might very well be decided by ghost runners in extra inning games. Anything is possible in a Rob Manfred-led game of baseball.

That being said, if they did move, would it really be all that awful? I mean, The Reds are and have been a huge part of my DNA. But if this is really what we’re going to have moving forward… if the team is going to continue to be owned by an incompetent family who refuse to execute any sort of vision or put together anything even resembling a coherent plan for how to be successful while the entitled frat bro owner’s kid insults our intelligence, what exactly are we losing?

The one thing that has kept me going all these years was hope. Hope that I would some day see my favorite team return to glory and that I’d get to experience even a fraction of the bliss my dad got to experience during the 1970’s. The closest we’ve gotten is a historic playoff collapse in 2012 and utter incompetence ever since.

That whole “having hope” thing is getting harder and harder by the day, especially when the owner’s kid is giving out arrogant ultimatums and basically telling us all to shove it. Going forward, is this really going to be an appropriate use of my free time and more so of my discretionary income? I have a mortgage, a kid and another kid on the way. I can think of lots of better things to spend my limited disposable income on than continuing to enrich someone like Phil Castellini.

My heart is telling me to stick with it, to never entertain the idea of quitting or accepting that The Reds could move, but my brain is telling me I’m an idiot for not having jumped ship years ago.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by 757690

That’s not fair. The Reds from 2010-2013 were one of the best teams in baseball during that time. This ownership did what was necessary to win and were smart about it. That team was easily my favorite teams to watch. I was proud to be a Reds fan during those years.

And the last two years the Reds have been competitive and fun to watch. No team during the Linder years was fun to watch or every any good. This ownership has been miles better than the Linder ownership.

---

Lol I knew I could count on you to come in here and defend the Castellini’s.

You are nothing if not predictable and consistent. God bless you.


Let me guess… the real reason Phil made those comments was as a coded message to the fans that the Williams’ have staged yet another coup and we need to donate all the money we can to help the deposed Castellini family return to power?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by The Operator

Lol I knew I could count on you to come in here and defend the Castellini’s.

You are nothing if not predictable and consistent. God bless you.


Let me guess… the real reason Phil made those comments was as a coded message to the fans that the Williams’ have staged yet another coup and we need to donate all the money we can to help the deposed Castellini family return to power?

---

I’m so glad the Castellinis were able to counter-coup the Williamses coup. Patriots are in control!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by 757690

That’s not fair. The Reds from 2010-2013 were one of the best teams in baseball during that time. This ownership did what was necessary to win and were smart about it. That team was easily my favorite teams to watch. I was proud to be a Reds fan during those years.

And the last two years the Reds have been competitive and fun to watch. No team during the Linder years was fun to watch or every any good. This ownership has been miles better than the Linder ownership.

---

I’m gonna go a bit against the grain here and agree with the sentiment a bit, unless I’m just totally missing what you’re getting at here.

It’s kind of mind boggling to me that Castellini is being such a major cheapskate to this degree, because we just came up on the 10 year anniversary of Joey Votto’s mega extension. If I remember correctly, at the time that was the biggest contract ever given out in pro sports. I was genuinely super excited about what the organization was doing and I felt like they had a bright future ahead of them. To their credit, they also gave out sizable contracts to Phillips and Bailey. And hell, even a couple years ago I was warming up to them again after they went on a spending spree and gave out their biggest FA contract ever.

Which makes what they’re pulling right now even stranger and just makes it a bigger kick in the junk. I really don’t understand what could’ve possibly happened, its pretty obvious they didn’t get screwed by the pandemic THAT bad if at all, to where they needed to just blow it up completely they way they did this off-season. I don’t know if Bob is going all weekend at Bernie’s and Phil is calling the shots now and tightening up the purse strings, or if Bob himself is just the wishy washiest dude ever. But in the last 10 years the dudes ownership legacy has been a rollercoaster of being the best owner the Reds have ever had in my life (admittedly very low bar) to being cringe inducingly cheap and embarrassing.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by The Operator

Lol I knew I could count on you to come in here and defend the Castellini’s.

You are nothing if not predictable and consistent. God bless you.


Let me guess… the real reason Phil made those comments was as a coded message to the fans that the Williams’ have staged yet another coup and we need to donate all the money we can to help the deposed Castellini family return to power?

---

Saying that this ownership is better than Lindor’s is not defending them. Saying that a band is better than Nickelback is not defending that band.

That said, up until 2015, this ownership was a solid ownership, providing a winning team and investing in fans. Since then, they have been rather abysmal and an embarrassment, especially this year.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by The Operator

They’ve won exactly as many playoff series as during Carl Lindner’s tenure and had more than twice the time to do it in.


I think we all need to let that sink in.

---

That being said, the Castellini's haven't been funding any terrorist groups like the Banana Man did. Not that I know of.

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/mccai...ersaw_n_110354

I will say, I was in Section 304 today and apparently no one heard Castellini's comments before the game because I was the only one booing.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sea Ray

Phil knew he screwed up because he made what appeared to be a surprise appearance on WLW with Bill Cunningham at about 2:30pm today. It was obvious that the sole purpose was to walk back the comments he made earlier. Apparently the PR team felt that wasn't enough and wanted him to repeat "his apology" with Bobby Nightengale

---

I'm guessing you didn't listen to his 2:30 with Cunningham?

It's more likely PR said "hollering 'hate me all you want but we're not selling' into a microphone was not the apology we had in mind, so how about WE write an apology and hand it to the press"

That was a cool opening day, guys.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wonderful Monds

I’m gonna go a bit against the grain here and agree with the sentiment a bit, unless I’m just totally missing what you’re getting at here.

It’s kind of mind boggling to me that Castellini is being such a major cheapskate to this degree, because we just came up on the 10 year anniversary of Joey Votto’s mega extension. If I remember correctly, at the time that was the biggest contract ever given out in pro sports. I was genuinely super excited about what the organization was doing and I felt like they had a bright future ahead of them. To their credit, they also gave out sizable contracts to Phillips and Bailey. And hell, even a couple years ago I was warming up to them again after they went on a spending spree and gave out their biggest FA contract ever.

Which makes what they’re pulling right now even stranger and just makes it a bigger kick in the junk. I really don’t understand what could’ve possibly happened, its pretty obvious they didn’t get screwed by the pandemic THAT bad if at all, to where they needed to just blow it up completely they way they did this off-season. I don’t know if Bob is going all weekend at Bernie’s and Phil is calling the shots now and tightening up the purse strings, or if Bob himself is just the wishy washiest dude ever. But in the last 10 years the dudes ownership legacy has been a rollercoaster of being the best owner the Reds have ever had in my life (admittedly very low bar) to being cringe inducingly cheap and embarrassing.

---

The only thing that makes sense is that Phil is in charge now and he’s just using it as an ATM

I think the wishy-washy comment from WM is valid. It's clear the Castellini's are thinned-skinned about this stuff, as yesterday showed. They're making decisions based on whims and feelings, which should worry all of us. I'd feel better about a quick teardown if there was a concrete plan to be executed. There's not.

But the obvious problem is that the Castellini's are involved in baseball decisions in the first place. A good franchise owner doles out the money and backs away. Hire a PR firm and let them spin messages. Hire the best executives (hint: Krall is not one of them) and leave them alone. Set a budget for the year and allow the executives to max it out. The Castellinis think that the skills they possess (inherited?) to run a successful corporation transfer to running a baseball team, but it doesn't always work that way. Hopefully, yesterday was a wake-up call. I agree that the fans need to keep the pressure on them until they keep their hands off the team, or sell.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by 757690

That’s not fair. The Reds from 2010-2013 were one of the best teams in baseball during that time. This ownership did what was necessary to win and were smart about it. That team was easily my favorite teams to watch. I was proud to be a Reds fan during those years.

And the last two years the Reds have been competitive and fun to watch. No team during the Linder years was fun to watch or every any good. This ownership has been miles better than the Linder ownership.

---

Those early years were because they hit on the farm system, not because of any great free agency signings. The best move they pulled by bringing in someone was signing Scott Rolen. Other than that, I believe most of that team was home grown talent.

edit...I guess Brandon Phillips as well. But when that trade was made, I don't think anyone thought he was going to be what he turned in to.

In the past 2 pages we’ve seen comments about the team building the best stretch of baseball in recent Reds history between 2010 and 2013 via growing a young core. We’ve seen posts about the Reds going on a FA spending spree in 2019-2020 and it not working. Phil’s comments were salty and ridiculous for the most part. But people are ignoring what he said about building a pipeline of young talent into Cincinnati through the minors and it being the way to win. I think the Reds would have run away with the division in 2020 without the shortened season. But by 2021, they had to start selling it off. The only sustainable winning stretch in recent Reds history was accomplished by a pipeline of homegrown talent. People are more than willing to acknowledge that when they are trying to mitigate current ownerships role there. But when they say we want to get to building such a pipeline, people go off. The way he delivered the message was obscenely terrible, but that was the message. I get the sell off hurt a lot of feelings, but they dismantled a barely 500 team where the star RF was not coming back pretty much no matter what, you probably got Votto’s last great season, your best pitcher per WAR was likely never going to come close to that performance again, and the roster had considerable fat on it like Suarez, Shogo, and Barnhart to a lesser degree. All of this while multiple young great players were emerging in the minors and MLB. As much incompetence as we’ve seen in executing rebuild plans since 2015, they may have finally seen the light. However, any goodwill from the fanbase to stomach the hard decision type moves we saw this off-season is gone and Phil doesn’t understand why it is.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by dubc47834

Those early years were because they hit on the farm system, not because of any great free agency signings. The best move they pulled by bringing in someone was signing Scott Rolen. Other than that, I believe most of that team was home grown talent.

edit...I guess Brandon Phillips as well. But when that trade was made, I don't think anyone thought he was going to be what he turned in to.

---

They definitely drafted and traded very well starting with the mid 2000s. But the Castellini's also doled out some big contracts to keep that home grown talent like Votto, Bruce, Phillips, Cueto, Homer, Cozart, Arroyo, Chapman, etc. It seems like something changed in 2015. They made some bad and/or unlucky deals, gave it another try in 2020, then have since given up again.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by 15fan

We’re closing in on the same amount of time wandering through the desert as was told in Exodus.

None of the Castellinis give off much of a Moses vibe.

---

Maybe they should part with the Reds, see?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Reds Freak

They definitely drafted and traded very well starting with the mid 2000s. But the Castellini's also doled out some big contracts to keep that home grown talent like Votto, Bruce, Phillips, Cueto, Homer, Cozart, Arroyo, Chapman, etc. It seems like something changed in 2015. They made some bad and/or unlucky deals, gave it another try in 2020, then have since given up again.

---

By 2015, the really great prospect pool had dried up and the Reds were unwillingly to part with some of the pieces of the previous soon enough to replenish it in any meaningful way. So we got some good trades Latos, Simon and a bevy of crap or ones that didn’t work out even if they sounded good at the time. The cupboard as bear and they later too late to restock. In hindsight it’s easy, but the team had peaked in 12 and was moving downward in 13. The sell off should have happened prior to the 14 season.

If your best stretch you can point to in 20 years is 3 years where you won ZERO playoff series then there is a problem. You don’t get bonus points for trying sometimes.

If you run into a “butthead” in the morning, you ran into a “butthead”. If you run into buttheads all day, you're the “butthead”.

The Banana brigade is the problem, not the solution.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mPqRirDphuc

This is the energy I imagine ol' Phil was going for yesterday.

I can't blame Phil for being salty about the increasingly loud shouting to sell the team. How much an owner spends on their business is never the customers' call.

But most owners respect the emotional bond that fans have with the team and don't lay things out in those stark terms. Phil let his guard down and showed that his emotional attachment is to the budget. I'm going to guess that he heard from some Hamilton County commissioners, who went out on a limb to issue the taxes that funded the construction of GABP. They probably reminded him that those fans who don't control his budget are paying for the building that his business operates in. That's the context that I frame the apology in.

I do think moving the team is an option and if the Castellinis intend to remain the majority owner for the foreseeable future, it will be their initiative that makes it move. There are too many larger media markets with major league teams in other sports that don't have MLB. If fans actually follow through with hastily-formed plans to abandon ship on the Reds, my guess is the team starts griping about the shortcomings of GABP, as a precursor to finding a new home for the team.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by The Operator

My heart is telling me to stick with it, to never entertain the idea of quitting or accepting that The Reds could move, but my brain is telling me I’m an idiot for not having jumped ship years ago.

---

I feel the same way. I trusted Bob C (based on what he did in the Walt years).
While I was mad about the tanking, I had a sliver of hope he'd do the right thing and eventually try to win again.
This past offseason, along with Phil C's comments -- I just don't have the hope anymore.
MLB has devolved to the point where you can either root for a perpetual loser , or one of the 10-15 or so franchises that at least sometimes tries to win.
The entire sport is broken. Today, I don't want to waste any more time or money on it. That might change later in the season, but when you
have the owner's son telling you that they have no intention of ever investing in a winner again and we should just support them because "it's in Cincy", hard
to even care anymore. Why bother following a team that is pretty much doomed to be under 500 most of the time? A team that is too cheap to keep players
like Winker. A team that gives away Miley for nothing. A team that somehow can't find a way to keep Sony Gray, but is willing to get an inferior guy like Minor for about the same cost. A team that is ok with having a GM (Krall) who clearly is in over his head and is easily taken advantage of by other GMs. Ok, I don't want to be repetitive, but I see where you are coming from.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Unassisted

I can't blame Phil for being salty about the increasingly loud shouting to sell the team. How much an owner spends on their business is never the customers' call.

---

Look... If the Castellini's want to buy K-Mart and use it as a tax write-off or whatever... fine. No one is rooting for K-Mart. But this is baseball. There's only one hometown professional baseball team to root for. It's a legal monopoly.

To hold an entity that involves fan experience hostage, just so all the owners can pocket the profits made... well, like I said before, there's a special place in hell for people like that. I'd say they need to go buy some business that doesn't have a fanbase. But of course that wouldn't be a monopoly so you know...

As it stands now, they are cashing in by worsening the fan experience. Shame on them.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by dubc47834

Those early years were because they hit on the farm system, not because of any great free agency signings. The best move they pulled by bringing in someone was signing Scott Rolen. Other than that, I believe most of that team was home grown talent.

edit...I guess Brandon Phillips as well. But when that trade was made, I don't think anyone thought he was going to be what he turned in to.

---

There was good trades too.. in addition to what you mentioned, if BP counts, than so does Arroyo
Latos was a key move. Also Broxton and Ludwick. The two high ticket relievers that got hurt.. one was Marshall, the other name escapes me.. had those
2 guys been healthy, they would have made an impact.

IMO, there was a lot of homegrown talent on the roster, but a good GM was required to fill in the gaps. For example, if Krall inherited the same team that Walt did, I doubt the Reds make the playoffs.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Old school 1983

In the past 2 pages we’ve seen comments about the team building the best stretch of baseball in recent Reds history between 2010 and 2013 via growing a young core. We’ve seen posts about the Reds going on a FA spending spree in 2019-2020 and it not working. Phil’s comments were salty and ridiculous for the most part. But people are ignoring what he said about building a pipeline of young talent into Cincinnati through the minors and it being the way to win. I think the Reds would have run away with the division in 2020 without the shortened season. But by 2021, they had to start selling it off. The only sustainable winning stretch in recent Reds history was accomplished by a pipeline of homegrown talent. People are more than willing to acknowledge that when they are trying to mitigate current ownerships role there. But when they say we want to get to building such a pipeline, people go off. The way he delivered the message was obscenely terrible, but that was the message. I get the sell off hurt a lot of feelings, but they dismantled a barely 500 team where the star RF was not coming back pretty much no matter what, you probably got Votto’s last great season, your best pitcher per WAR was likely never going to come close to that performance again, and the roster had considerable fat on it like Suarez, Shogo, and Barnhart to a lesser degree. All of this while multiple young great players were emerging in the minors and MLB. As much incompetence as we’ve seen in executing rebuild plans since 2015, they may have finally seen the light. However, any goodwill from the fanbase to stomach the hard decision type moves we saw this off-season is gone and Phil doesn’t understand why it is.

---

The Reds have been trying to build a pipeline of young talent ever since Leake was traded.
There's been some success, but recently the Reds have shown cost cutting takes precedence over keeping that talent.
Every guy that left the team was a salary dump, not a good baseball team.
Then how do they "fix" the team after the fans get mad? They sign a bunch of mediocre at best stopgaps.
There is no plan.
If last offseason becomes the model, it will be impossible for the farm to produce enough talent to even replace what is leaving.

The biggest thing Bob could do to show that what happened was unacceptable is to get his son out of that position. Transition him to something to save face, I mean I wish he wouldn't, but we know at bare minimum that would happen. It is a joke to have someone as COO who said what he said.

Show to the fans that what he said was so out of line from what the ownership feels, and that it is so unacceptable, that he can't be in a position to represent the Reds like he has.

I am NO fan of Thom, and obviously this is apples vs oranges (something hateful vs just dumb), but Thom said his on a hot mic. Phil intended to say what he did and for it to be heard, and it took several attempts to get close to an apology, but it was an apology like you would say when you were eight to your sibling, when your mom made you.

We all know this won't happen, but it would restore a sliver of faith in ownership if they showed how unacceptable that was. Of course I am instead expecting for Phil to get promoted to Bob's role of master overseer in the next couple of years instead.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by missionhockey21

The biggest thing Bob could do to show that what happened was unacceptable is to get his son out of that position. Transition him to something to save face, I mean I wish he wouldn't, but we know at bare minimum that would happen. It is a joke to have someone as COO who said what he said.

Show to the fans that what he said was so out of line from what the ownership feels, and that it is so unacceptable, that he can't be in a position to represent the Reds like he has.

---

Since Bob's the one being called out by name, maybe he's more irritated about it than Phil is? Hard to imagine that Phil is the only member of the family bothered by the calls for it to sell.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Reds Freak

They definitely drafted and traded very well starting with the mid 2000s. But the Castellini's also doled out some big contracts to keep that home grown talent like Votto, Bruce, Phillips, Cueto, Homer, Cozart, Arroyo, Chapman, etc. It seems like something changed in 2015. They made some bad and/or unlucky deals, gave it another try in 2020, then have since given up again.

---

I agree that later on in that run they paid out some money, to their credit, but it was late in that run. That's also when things started turning south again.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by REDREAD

There was good trades too.. in addition to what you mentioned, if BP counts, than so does Arroyo
Latos was a key move. Also Broxton and Ludwick. The two high ticket relievers that got hurt.. one was Marshall, the other name escapes me.. had those
2 guys been healthy, they would have made an impact.

IMO, there was a lot of homegrown talent on the roster, but a good GM was required to fill in the gaps. For example, if Krall inherited the same team that Walt did, I doubt the Reds make the playoffs.

---

Good point...I forgot about Arroyo and Latos.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by REDREAD

The Reds have been trying to build a pipeline of young talent ever since Leake was traded.
There's been some success, but recently the Reds have shown cost cutting takes precedence over keeping that talent.
Every guy that left the team was a salary dump, not a good baseball team.
Then how do they "fix" the team after the fans get mad? They sign a bunch of mediocre at best stopgaps.
There is no plan.
If last offseason becomes the model, it will be impossible for the farm to produce enough talent to even replace what is leaving.

---

Who would have actually added longer term additional talent to the team at a price worth paying?

Cast….yes. Never coming back regardless so it’s moot
Barnhart. No. Plus better replacement in house.
Miley. No. No way he repeats last year and would be blocking Greene and Lodolo
Suarez….no. Was an anchor
Shogo…see Suarez
Gray…would have provided some value this year but the wrong side of 30, recent injury history and young stud pitchers in the pipeline.
Winker…best player to go, but very one dimensional. Just for perspective. Last year was his career year. 2.7 bWAR. Billy Hamilton had a year were he topped that. Think about that for a second.

So sure, those moves saved money. But who are you really going to miss in the long run. Hell, outside of Winker and Gray, I’m not missing anyone in that group this year. Things can occur for both baseball and monetary reasons. Look at the big picture. The Kids are being given room to grow. There is ample free payroll space in the years to come. And we are all getting in a tizzy because the Reds broke up a team that had so many things break right for them just to barely finish above .500.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Unassisted

I can't blame Phil for being salty about the increasingly loud shouting to sell the team. How much an owner spends on their business is never the customers' call.

But most owners respect the emotional bond that fans have with the team and don't lay things out in those stark terms. Phil let his guard down and showed that his emotional attachment is to the budget. I'm going to guess that he heard from some Hamilton County commissioners, who went out on a limb to issue the taxes that funded the construction of GABP. They probably reminded him that those fans who don't control his budget are paying for the building that his business operates in. That's the context that I frame the apology in.

I do think moving the team is an option and if the Castellinis intend to remain the majority owner for the foreseeable future, it will be their initiative that makes it move. There are too many larger media markets with major league teams in other sports that don't have MLB. If fans actually follow through with hastily-formed plans to abandon ship on the Reds, my guess is the team starts griping about the shortcomings of GABP, as a precursor to finding a new home for the team.

---

And it's always the customer's call on where they spend their money. I spend mine on club seats for the Bengals and Bearcats. I won't spend a dime on the Reds. They lost that spend.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Old school 1983

Who would have actually added longer term additional talent to the team at a price worth paying?

CastÂ….yes. Never coming back regardless so itÂ’s moot
Barnhart. No. Plus better replacement in house.
Miley. No. No way he repeats last year and would be blocking Greene and Lodolo
SuarezÂ….no. Was an anchor
ShogoÂ…see Suarez
GrayÂ…would have provided some value this year but the wrong side of 30, recent injury history and young stud pitchers in the pipeline.
WinkerÂ…best player to go, but very one dimensional. Just for perspective. Last year was his career year. 2.7 bWAR. Billy Hamilton had a year were he topped that. Think about that for a second.

So sure, those moves saved money. But who are you really going to miss in the long run. Hell, outside of Winker and Gray, IÂ’m not missing anyone in that group this year. Things can occur for both baseball and monetary reasons. Look at the big picture. The Kids are being given room to grow. There is ample free payroll space in the years to come. And we are all getting in a tizzy because the Reds broke up a team that had so many things break right for them just to barely finish above .500.

---

I think a lot of your analysis is fair; Barnhart should be here (good catcher, reasonable deal, DH and 1B mean Stephenson had available ABs while taking strain off him) but a decent chunk of the other moves could, with some distance between them and now, be justified.

But it just shows how bad these people are at interacting with their fans. When they traded Barnhart, they never should have been talking about "aligning payroll to resources." How about, "We love Tucker, he's been great for us. But we think Tyler is going to be an All-Star and very soon; he needs to be the catcher something approaching every day. Once we made that decision - which we really believe is right - then it made sense for us to look to get Tucker somewhere else."

Same with the pitchers: "Wade Miley was great for us. I'm always going to remember his no-hitter and everything he gave us last year. But we've got Hunter Greene and Nick Lodolo kicking down the door. Those guys don't have anything left to prove to us in the minor leagues and they are going to be given every shot at being big performers in our rotation. As we move towards making the next truly great Reds team, and when it came to freeing up spots in the rotation, emphasizing the young guys made the most sense to us."

On Nick: "Look, when we brought Nick in, we could only get a deal done with the opt-out structure we landed on. We knew there was a risk that if he performed well, he would opt out. I know it's hard to look at it this way but in some ways, his opting out means we identified someone who could be really good for us and then he was. We intend to be in the mix to bring him back but we also know he's going to have a lot of suitors. We'll see."

On money, payroll: "Our job is to plan for more than just one season. I actually love the position we're in right now. We have really good young talent up and down the roster. And find me a club that has cleaner books than ours into the future. You literally will not find one. You know what that means? The players we have now are going to be getting really, really good right at the time we have a serious capacity to invest in additional outside help. It reminds me of building the great teams we had in 2010 and 2012. It's going to be awesome. I'm super excited and hope you can be too."

All of that sells so much easier than what they've been peddling; and, conveniently, it's all true! Yet they just stammer out a bunch of incomprehensible and (if you can make heads or tails of it) offensive silliness.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by muethibp

I think a lot of your analysis is fair; Barnhart should be here (good catcher, reasonable deal, DH and 1B mean Stephenson had available ABs while taking strain off him) but a decent chunk of the other moves could, with some distance between them and now, be justified.

But it just shows how bad these people are at interacting with their fans. When they traded Barnhart, they never should have been talking about "aligning payroll to resources." How about, "We love Tucker, he's been great for us. But we think Tyler is going to be an All-Star and very soon; he needs to be the catcher something approaching every day. Once we made that decision - which we really believe is right - then it made sense for us to look to get Tucker somewhere else."

Same with the pitchers: "Wade Miley was great for us. I'm always going to remember his no-hitter and everything he gave us last year. But we've got Hunter Greene and Nick Lodolo kicking down the door. Those guys don't have anything left to prove to us in the minor leagues and they are going to be given every shot at being big performers in our rotation. As we move towards making the next truly great Reds team, and when it came to freeing up spots in the rotation, emphasizing the young guys made the most sense to us."

On Nick: "Look, when we brought Nick in, we could only get a deal done with the opt-out structure we landed on. We knew there was a risk that if he performed well, he would opt out. I know it's hard to look at it this way but in some ways, his opting out means we identified someone who could be really good for us and then he was. We intend to be in the mix to bring him back but we also know he's going to have a lot of suitors. We'll see."

On money, payroll: "Our job is to plan for more than just one season. I actually love the position we're in right now. We have really good young talent up and down the roster. And find me a club that has cleaner books than ours into the future. You literally will not find one. You know what that means? The players we have now are going to be getting really, really good right at the time we have a serious capacity to invest in additional outside help. It reminds me of building the great teams we had in 2010 and 2012. It's going to be awesome. I'm super excited and hope you can be too."

All of that sells so much easier than what they've been peddling; and, conveniently, it's all true! Yet they just stammer out a bunch of incomprehensible and (if you can make heads or tails of it) offensive silliness.

---

They definitely could have sold it in a way softer manner. Some of the things Krall said, while bluntly true, were also face palm worthy. Same with the things Phil said yesterday.

As far as Your Barnhart take. I’d have loved to have him back, but not for the price. $7-8M is a steep price for a backup player. It was Stephensons time.

I shudder at the prospect of Phil owning the team in ten yrs :yikes:

That's what bothers me about all of this

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Unassisted

I do think moving the team is an option and if the Castellinis intend to remain the majority owner for the foreseeable future, it will be their initiative that makes it move. There are too many larger media markets with major league teams in other sports that don't have MLB. If fans actually follow through with hastily-formed plans to abandon ship on the Reds, my guess is the team starts griping about the shortcomings of GABP, as a precursor to finding a new home for the team.

---

Major League Baseball has had exactly 1 franchise move in my lifetime, and moving the Reds would require litigating against the State of Ohio re: "Modell's Law." Major League Soccer thought better of their chances on that front a few years back when they decided to leave the Columbus Crew in place and just award Austin an expansion spot instead of a relocated franchise.

The threat to move the Reds is as empty as their free agent budget.

I'll give my two pennies, even though no one asked;

Without looking up the specifics of the 2010-2013 run, this is what I recall;
Dan O'Brien - Drafted Well
Wayne Krivsky - Did well turning over rocks and finding gold
Walt Jockety - Took all the assets the team had and moved them to the MLB team. I always felt that he got too much credit. He took a nice foundation, traded basically any prospect that wasn't nailed down for major league talent, and then reaped the rewards. I'm not saying anyone could have done it, but it wasn't the hardest turnaround job either.

The county that I live in gifted the Cincinnati Reds a stadium, on the promise that the team would have a higher payroll and better results. The results never came and the payroll is debatable at best. Then the owner's son said eat the turd on the plate or we're leaving. Classy. I'm beyond over both of Cincinnati's pro teams.

If they want to move, c-ya. I'm guessing that the majority of the people that still live in Hamilton county cannot afford to attend Reds or Bengals games regularly. The upper middle class has largely moved out of the county, I'm guessing. The Hamilton county residents don't need to keep funding stadiums that largely get used by neighboring counties. If a new stadium is needed/wanted it should be a joint effort by NKY, Hamilton County, Butler County, and Clermont. Unrealistic, I know.

I can see the vision of what Nick is trying to do with the roster. I don't necessarily agree with it, but I get it. It seems like the thought is to clear out any long term payroll and acquire prospects while doing so. The thought is reasonable. The execution, we'll see. The delivery of said plan was horrid.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by REDREAD

There was good trades too.. in addition to what you mentioned, if BP counts, than so does Arroyo
Latos was a key move. Also Broxton and Ludwick. The two high ticket relievers that got hurt.. one was Marshall, the other name escapes me.. had those
2 guys been healthy, they would have made an impact.

IMO, there was a lot of homegrown talent on the roster, but a good GM was required to fill in the gaps. For example, if Krall inherited the same team that Walt did, I doubt the Reds make the playoffs.

---

Ryan Madson was the other reliever. Had he not gotten hurt, Chapman likely would have remained in the rotation.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Old school 1983

Who would have actually added longer term additional talent to the team at a price worth paying?

Cast….yes. Never coming back regardless so it’s moot
Barnhart. No. Plus better replacement in house.
Miley. No. No way he repeats last year and would be blocking Greene and Lodolo
Suarez….no. Was an anchor
Shogo…see Suarez
Gray…would have provided some value this year but the wrong side of 30, recent injury history and young stud pitchers in the pipeline.
Winker…best player to go, but very one dimensional. Just for perspective. Last year was his career year. 2.7 bWAR. Billy Hamilton had a year were he topped that. Think about that for a second.

So sure, those moves saved money. But who are you really going to miss in the long run. Hell, outside of Winker and Gray, I’m not missing anyone in that group this year. Things can occur for both baseball and monetary reasons. Look at the big picture. The Kids are being given room to grow. There is ample free payroll space in the years to come. And we are all getting in a tizzy because the Reds broke up a team that had so many things break right for them just to barely finish above .500.

---

I would have kept Miley , Gray and Winker. Maybe Suarez..
Gray and Miley wouldn't have blocked Greene or Lodollo.. Right now we have Vlad and San Martin in the rotation (I think).
The rotation could have been Castillo, Mahle, Gray, Lodollo and Greene.
It usually takes more than 5 starting pitchers to make it through a season.
One of Lodollo or Greene could have pitched in relief this season.
I can understand Barnhart and Castanallos not coming back, and I applaud Shogo getting cut.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bob Sheed

Look... If the Castellini's want to buy K-Mart and use it as a tax write-off or whatever... fine. No one is rooting for K-Mart. But this is baseball. There's only one hometown professional baseball team to root for. It's a legal monopoly.

To hold an entity that involves fan experience hostage, just so all the owners can pocket the profits made... well, like I said before, there's a special place in hell for people like that. I'd say they need to go buy some business that doesn't have a fanbase. But of course that wouldn't be a monopoly so you know...

As it stands now, they are cashing in by worsening the fan experience. Shame on them.

---

.PREACH.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Z-Fly

I'll give my two pennies, even though no one asked;

Without looking up the specifics of the 2010-2013 run, this is what I recall;
Dan O'Brien - Drafted Well
Wayne Krivsky - Did well turning over rocks and finding gold
Walt Jockety - Took all the assets the team had and moved them to the MLB team. I always felt that he got too much credit. He took a nice foundation, traded basically any prospect that wasn't nailed down for major league talent, and then reaped the rewards. I'm not saying anyone could have done it, but it wasn't the hardest turnaround job either.

The county that I live in gifted the Cincinnati Reds a stadium, on the promise that the team would have a higher payroll and better results. The results never came and the payroll is debatable at best. Then the owner's son said eat the turd on the plate or we're leaving. Classy. I'm beyond over both of Cincinnati's pro teams.

If they want to move, c-ya. I'm guessing that the majority of the people that still live in Hamilton county cannot afford to attend Reds or Bengals games regularly. The upper middle class has largely moved out of the county, I'm guessing. The Hamilton county residents don't need to keep funding stadiums that largely get used by neighboring counties. If a new stadium is needed/wanted it should be a joint effort by NKY, Hamilton County, Butler County, and Clermont. Unrealistic, I know.

I can see the vision of what Nick is trying to do with the roster. I don't necessarily agree with it, but I get it. It seems like the thought is to clear out any long term payroll and acquire prospects while doing so. The thought is reasonable. The execution, we'll see. The delivery of said plan was horrid.

---

FWIW Indian Hill, Hyde Park, Terrace Park, Mariemont, Madeira are all in Hamilton County, plenty of "Upper Class"


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

My issues with the Reds isn't as much who they got rid of it's with the guys they're trying to sell us. Tommy Pham and Jake Fraley aren't major league players and they're getting defacto starting time so far this season and that's not likely to change. They don't understand windows and timing on trades with regards to player value and when it's at it's highest. You can't build a perpetual winner by a good minor league system simply on drafting. You have to continually reload it by trading some of your top MLB players when thier value is at it's peak. I have zero confidence that the bumbling stumbling Nick Krall can get the job done, especially with impulsive owners that are constantly waffling on being in or out. It's total ineptness, and it's a shame for the young core of this team that it's going to be wasted just like the young core of players they had back in the early 2010's.