Reds Trade And Free Agent Rumours 2023-24 Offseason

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Originally Posted by Old school 1983

Yeah. The same apologetic posters that saw the writing on the wall and understood a tear down was needed. The same ones that said the rebuild could bear fruit. .

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It hasn't bore fruit yet. Unless Krall adds some talent, we will most likely miss the expanded playoffs again.
Honestly, the team really isn't that much better off than it was at the end of 2021.
The 2021 team finished with a .512 winning percentage
The 2023 team finished with a .506 winning percentage.

The 2023 team had a lower payroll, but that doesn't help us as fans unless the team spends money to add talent.

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Originally Posted by Old school 1983

Yeah. The same apologetic posters that saw the writing on the wall and understood a tear down was needed. The same ones that said the rebuild could bear fruit. And the same ones that caught hell from everyone else here for even suggesting that the Reds could possibly win the first trade with Seattle or that the rebuild would work. I’m not calling scoreboard yet, but things seem to be trending in the direction of those “apologists” being correct. Maybe when someone disagrees with you they aren’t an apologist for the front office. Maybe they just have a different view of what’s going on in the situation. Everyone here wants to see the Reds win. No one is cheering for the Castellini’s pocketbook. When someone calls someone else a liar, try bringing evidence other than they said we’d do this and then this didn’t happen. We all wish things were that black and white but they aren’t especially with as many moving parts as you have in a baseball off-season.

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I would definitely not call scoreboard on a firesale or an 82 win team that choked away a postseason berth. I'm glad they didn't do a slow motion firesale a la 2015, but they sent out two great starters and got some offense back. Again, narratively, fans see this as "the time" to add pieces, but I don't buy it. I think the current payroll is the endgame. What they do from here is sort of futz around at the margins and pray.

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Originally Posted by Old school 1983

Yeah. The same apologetic posters that saw the writing on the wall and understood a tear down was needed.

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The Reds were good for 6 weeks last year, the rest of the season they were mediocre at best. After the ASB they went 32-39.

I wouldn't dunk it yet.

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Originally Posted by Kinsm

The Reds were good for 6 weeks last year, the rest of the season they were mediocre at best. After the ASB they went 32-39.

I wouldn't dunk it yet.

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Cherry picking out a section of a season’s stats has always been one of the most dishonest and meaningless points one could make.

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Originally Posted by 757690

Cherry picking out a section of a season’s stats has always been one of the most dishonest and meaningless points one could make.

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Did I say something that was incorrect?

I'm sure you would pick out those 6 weeks and say the club is an .800 club.

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Originally Posted by Kinsm

Did I say something that was incorrect?

I'm sure you would pick out those 6 weeks and say the club is an .800 club.

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No I would not. I would look at the Reds full season record.

There are plenty statements that are factually true, and rather meaningless. “Take out the games the Reds won on odd number Thursdays, and they are a mediocre team” may be factually correct, but tells nothing of meaning.

People saying the Reds haven’t had success in 30 years. Have you forgotten 1999, 2010, 2012, 2020, and last year’s historic season? If you’re gonna go out on a limb to criticize a baseball team or their front office, at least check their history first before you embarrass yourself.

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Originally Posted by 757690

No I would not. I would look at the Reds full season record.

There are plenty statements that are factually true, and rather meaningless. “Take out the games the Reds won on odd number Thursdays, and they are a mediocre team” may be factually correct, but tells nothing of meaning.

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There's a continuum of meaningfulness to meaninglessness. kinsm's data point is on the more relevant end of meaning. Knowing how long the team is able to extend excellent play is a meaningful data point.

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Originally Posted by 757690

Cherry picking out a section of a season’s stats has always been one of the most dishonest and meaningless points one could make.

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What he said was true.
The team overall was about .500, and the reason for that was the hot 6 weeks.
Krall needs to look at that and figure out why they did so poorly after the allstar break.
It's actually pretty obvious.. rotation was not very good, bullpen was gassed.
I think Krall actually knows that, but wants to deny it publicly, as an excuse not to make some big moves. He's not stupid, but he and PhilC want to keep payroll down and horde prospects. The reason they want to horde prospects is because it keeps payroll down, not because it's a formula for winning. They figured out that a team of kids that plays about 500 will draw 2 million fans and get good TV ratings, so that's likely the business plan until it fails to work.

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Originally Posted by 757690

No I would not. I would look at the Reds full season record.

There are plenty statements that are factually true, and rather meaningless. “Take out the games the Reds won on odd number Thursdays, and they are a mediocre team” may be factually correct, but tells nothing of meaning.

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I think if your argument depends on 6 weeks of a 6-month season, I think it pertinent to point out that maybe those 6 weeks are an aberration.

Not to be a jerk, but can we get this thread back to "Reds Trade and Free Agent Rumors "?

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Originally Posted by Redsfan6272

Not to be a jerk, but can we get this thread back to "Reds Trade and Free Agent Rumors "?

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There are none currently.

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Originally Posted by Falls City Beer

I would definitely not call scoreboard on a firesale or an 82 win team that choked away a postseason berth. I'm glad they didn't do a slow motion firesale a la 2015, but they sent out two great starters and got some offense back. Again, narratively, fans see this as "the time" to add pieces, but I don't buy it. I think the current payroll is the endgame. What they do from here is sort of futz around at the margins and pray.

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I’m not calling scorecard. But right now it’s trending away from the forever suck that a good deal of the board predicted.

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Originally Posted by REDREAD

Let me clarify. Krall said they were in on all the major FA SS.. I don't remember his exact quote, but he said they were seriously pursuing them. That means the Reds were making offers in market value range, right? I mean, if I go to a car dealership and tell them I'm seriously interested in buying a new Camry and can pay cash today, and the salesman spends an hour with me, then I tell him.. Well, I only have $200.. Well, I was never a serious buyer and I lied to the salesman, because common sense says I'm not getting a new car for $200.

Krall said they were in on all the major FA SS.. In the end, the Reds targeted a utility man, I can't remember the exact numbers.. The Reds offered him 2 or 3 million plus the chance to start. He ended up taking 5 or 6 million from the Mets instead.. Again, Reds were not even willing to offer him close to market value.. They were lying.

Now this winter, Krall is being careful with his words, he's hinting that the Reds are going to be looking to add pitching, but he's not committing to anything. I actually respect that more than what he's done in the past... So yes, I agree with you, Krall has not lied this winter. But he has definitely lied in the past.

And then we can get into PhilC's entire presentation last spring, that was full of lies (75% of teams eliminated from the playoffs on day 1, when 40% of the teams make the playoffs). And then the classic line about how the Reds barely break even every year and are run as a non profit, that the Reds have been using ever since Marge was forced out.

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There are millions of Camry’s are you’re not bidding against anyone else and the price is fixed. It’s more like buying a house. Say you want to buy in a certain area…let’s call that area shortstop….in a certain price range….top of the market. Let’s call it $750k. There are 5 $750K houses for sale in the area and 7 or so buyers. You have 750-775 to spend. You could possibly be putting in competitive offers for each one and still be outbid. You could have a situation where you actually put in the highest bid, but the other guy waived inspections….which I would say is the equivalent of a player wanting to play somewhere else despite the money. No matter what in that situation, 2 guys will be left out at the end of the day…regardless of how much of a real effort they made. Are they liars? Or was that just how the chips fell?

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Originally Posted by Old school 1983

There are millions of Camry’s are you’re not bidding against anyone else and the price is fixed. It’s more like buying a house. Say you want to buy in a certain area…let’s call that area shortstop….in a certain price range….top of the market. Let’s call it $750k. There are 5 $750K houses for sale in the area and 7 or so buyers. You have 750-775 to spend. You could possibly be putting in competitive offers for each one and still be outbid. You could have a situation where you actually put in the highest bid, but the other guy waived inspections….which I would say is the equivalent of a player wanting to play somewhere else despite the money. No matter what in that situation, 2 guys will be left out at the end of the day…regardless of how much of a real effort they made. Are they liars? Or was that just how the chips fell?

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I think this is a very plausible and clear analogy. The problem I have is that these chips always seem to fall against the Reds best interest. Makes me think it's more than simply the chips not always falling the right way. I can see that happening a couple of times. I don't see it happening for 30 years.