Phil Castellini surprised that Opening Day tickets still unsold

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Originally Posted by Old school 1983

6. Since 2010 I think the Reds have been generally honest about their plans and actions while not always being competent in the execution. Yes, they have engaged in GM speak, but so has every other organization or basically every other ownership group that could have come in here save a unicorn or two. That level of BS is to be expected. Show me a material lie in the overall plans of the club? They have added when they said they’d add, they’ve rebuilt when they have said they’d rebuild and have realigned resources when they have said they’d do that. Their execution doesn’t make them the most competent along that journey and yes the owner has made some money along the way and that’s ok.

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Lying an incompetence are not the same thing but they do result in the same thing. Distrust. And that's the problem with the adding, rebuilding and realigning resources. Did they do those things when it was best for the club? Absolutely not. So will they trade guys at the right time? Will they prudently spend the pay flex? Will they properly manage the young arms? Can Bob resist getting emotionally invested in certain players? This is not an easy endeavor they are pursuing

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Originally Posted by Old school 1983

File under owner speak BS. What owner is going to flat come out and say yeah we’re pocketing all the cash.

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That's a straw man.

They said, "We're spending every penny we get from the fans on the team and will keep nothing. We'll break even."

That's a massive lie. Full stop.

They didn't have to say it, but they did. Repeatedly. It was ownerships' favorite lie of the past 15 years.

(BTW, those lies make them bad people.)

“There is no money in the game with salaries being too high.”

~ Aaron Stern - Reds Owner 1890

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Originally Posted by Old school 1983

File under owner speak BS. What owner is going to flat come out and say yeah we’re pocketing all the cash.

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I’ve never heard another owner for any professional team say they put every dollar back into the team. This is literally only a Reds thing.

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Originally Posted by Bourgeois Zee

That's a straw man.

They said, "We're spending every penny we get from the fans on the team and will keep nothing. We'll break even."

That's a massive lie. Full stop.

They didn't have to say it, but they did. Repeatedly. It was ownerships' favorite lie of the past 15 years.

(BTW, those lies make them bad people.)

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It’s not a strawman. You’re going to get a certain level of BS from people in those type of positions. As far of what they’re spending and how…it might as well be Charlie Browns mother speaking to me. It’s verbal flatulence and immaterial to whether they have stuck to their over arching plans. Ie rebuild or not. They have been honest in that regard. To me, that’s what matters. I don’t give a rats butt about corporate speak crap. It’s their money. They can spend or not spend it how they see fit. To me the bigger issue is the competency in enacting the plans. They can spend every last penny and then some and if it’s not competent, it won’t matter. If they spend a pittance and do it well, they could win it all. That’s what matters to me. The were spending this or that sounds like wah wah wah to me because it’s likely immaterial BS especially when the Reds have spent more than enough to have a winning club in the non rebuild years. The issue isn’t what they are spending. It’s their competency in spending it. Acting like they aren’t spending enough is the typical grab a pitchfork scapegoat fans have when it’s rebuild time. And the corporate BS comments are used to counter that.

Yes, there were monetary concerns in the moves this off-season. However, to me this is the first time the Reds made the hard type of decision moves that need to be made IMO in a long time if ever. They have a ton of rising young talent and not a lot on the payroll in years to come. Despite the recent butthurt, the Reds will use that money in the coming years.

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Originally Posted by Old school 1983

Despite the recent butthurt, the Reds will use that money in the coming years.

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They never have in the past.

Why would they start now?

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Originally Posted by Bourgeois Zee

They never have in the past.

Why would they start now?

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Insert gif of Charlie Brown trying to kick the football.

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Originally Posted by Bourgeois Zee

They never have in the past.

Why would they start now?

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2019-2020 offseason was not that long ago.

They used some of the saving this year already.

So you’re saying the Reds new baseline payroll is $95M

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Originally Posted by Old school 1983

2019-2020 offseason was not that long ago.

They used some of the saving this year already.

So you’re saying the Reds new baseline payroll is $95M

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They haven’t used a penny of the money that was “saved”. I’ve showed you this using the best information we have. I’ve cited my work, and you still think they’ve used payflex?

I salute you on excellent trolling. Good day to you.

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Originally Posted by Old school 1983

2019-2020 offseason was not that long ago.

They used some of the saving this year already.

So you’re saying the Reds new baseline payroll is $95M

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That’s some creative accounting.

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Originally Posted by Old school 1983

2019-2020 offseason was not that long ago.

They used some of the saving this year already.

So you’re saying the Reds new baseline payroll is $95M

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Go read LeatherPants' posts about how little the Reds spend commensurate with their percentage of receipts again.

He's posted it multiple times in this thread.

Go read multiple posters' responses about how payflex has ended up pocketed by owners.

Don't put words in my mouth.

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Originally Posted by Bourgeois Zee

Go read LeatherPants' posts about how little the Reds spend commensurate with their percentage of receipts again.

He's posted it multiple times in this thread.

Go read multiple posters' responses about how payflex has ended up pocketed by owners.

Don't put words in my mouth.

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I guess if they go back to spending 46% of their revenue on payroll this will somehow be spun to show how they are spending the money they didn’t spend this year. Or something?

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Originally Posted by LeatherPants

I guess if they go back to spending 46% of their revenue on payroll this will somehow be spun to show how they are spending the money they didn’t spend this year. Or something?

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You're just lucky owners decide to spend any money at all! It's their team. They can do whatever they want! Castellini-- God bless his heart-- could put Joey Votto to work as a deli slicer and make Luis Castillo a cashier. Winker prob'ly wasn't willing to do the extra work a low level guy needs to do to impress the boss. (God bless him.) That's why he got traded. You don't understand what owners do for the game. Why, without them, those greedy players wouldn't be able to complain about living conditions or traveling conditions or indentured servitude or collusion or poverty wages in the minor leagues. The owners give them something to do-- and a hobby.

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Originally Posted by Old school 1983

Despite the recent butthurt, the Reds will use that money in the coming years.

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https://c.tenor.com/QwcxGNHGU_8AAAAC/dr-evil-right.gif

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Originally Posted by Old school 1983

It’s not a strawman. You’re going to get a certain level of BS from people in those type of positions. As far of what they’re spending and how…it might as well be Charlie Browns mother speaking to me. It’s verbal flatulence and immaterial to whether they have stuck to their over arching plans. Ie rebuild or not. They have been honest in that regard. To me, that’s what matters. I don’t give a rats butt about corporate speak crap. It’s their money. They can spend or not spend it how they see fit. To me the bigger issue is the competency in enacting the plans. They can spend every last penny and then some and if it’s not competent, it won’t matter. If they spend a pittance and do it well, they could win it all. That’s what matters to me. The were spending this or that sounds like wah wah wah to me because it’s likely immaterial BS especially when the Reds have spent more than enough to have a winning club in the non rebuild years. The issue isn’t what they are spending. It’s their competency in spending it. Acting like they aren’t spending enough is the typical grab a pitchfork scapegoat fans have when it’s rebuild time. And the corporate BS comments are used to counter that.

Yes, there were monetary concerns in the moves this off-season. However, to me this is the first time the Reds made the hard type of decision moves that need to be made IMO in a long time if ever. They have a ton of rising young talent and not a lot on the payroll in years to come. Despite the recent butthurt, the Reds will use that money in the coming years.

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I hope you can, at least, acknowledge how tiny the needle is you are trying to thread here:

I'm okay with them lying, but only on some things
They have spent plenty enough to build a winner but now they see the light that spending is not the way to build a winner
They have been bad at executing every other plan but I trust them to execute THIS plan

And if you don't agree with all of this, you're just butthurt

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Originally Posted by Falls City Beer

That’s some creative accounting.

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It’s really not.

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Originally Posted by Wonderful Monds

https://c.tenor.com/QwcxGNHGU_8AAAAC/dr-evil-right.gif

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See 2019-2020 off-season.

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Originally Posted by Bourgeois Zee

Go read LeatherPants' posts about how little the Reds spend commensurate with their percentage of receipts again.

He's posted it multiple times in this thread.

Go read multiple posters' responses about how payflex has ended up pocketed by owners.

Don't put words in my mouth.

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I read it. It still doesn’t negate my post. It actually strengthens it. It shows the Reds are spending below what is their norms while realigning talent and resources. Last time we saw them have a heavy surplus like that they spent it in 2019-2020. That’s fact. Same with them saying that they’d invest in adding to the team after the trade with the Ms. They did. And since you just told me you agreed with Leatherpants, it’s easily demonstrable that the Reds are far under their normal spending, which shows that the chances of them consistently being in 95M range for the near future are not great. I’m not putting words into your mouth. I’m stating facts that are true or things that are pretty inferable from yours and learhelamts posts.

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Originally Posted by Old school 1983

I read it. It still doesn’t negate my post. It actually strengthens it. It shows the Reds are spending below what is their norms while realigning talent and resources. Last time we saw them have a heavy surplus like that they spent it in 2019-2020. That’s fact. Same with them saying that they’d invest in adding to the team after the trade with the Ms. They did. And since you just told me you agreed with Leatherpants, it’s easily demonstrable that the Reds are far under their normal spending, which shows that the chances of them consistently being in 95M range for the near future are not great. I’m not putting words into your mouth. I’m stating facts that are true or things that are pretty inferable from yours and learhelamts posts.

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Christ.

1. The Reds are spending less than half of what they pledged they would have.
2. When the Reds receive payflex, the owners pocket it, as they have each year when they have (as seen in number one) pay less than half of what they pledged they'd spend.

It's not hard, man.

They're penurious buttheads.

Regardless, that's the last thing I'm saying. I'm done with you, not because I've been convinced, but because I'm convinced you never will be. At this point, I suspect you're either a Reds' employee told to troll this particular message board, a Castellini, or just trolling. Either way, it's not a great look.

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Originally Posted by MoneyInTheBank

I hope you can, at least, acknowledge how tiny the needle is you are trying to thread here:

I'm okay with them lying, but only on some things
They have spent plenty enough to build a winner but now they see the light that spending is not the way to build a winner
They have been bad at executing every other plan but I trust them to execute THIS plan

And if you don't agree with all of this, you're just butthurt

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That’s not what i said. I have reservations if they can pull this out because of the lack of competency and inability of the front off to stick to a plan in the last decade. But for the first time I’ve seen them get make tough calls to get rid of players a year too early instead of too late. Which is leading to the butthurt. Not disagreement with me.

And no. No lying is ok IMO. But some matter and some doesnt. The Reds will spend what they are going to spend regardless of what they tell the public. It’s typical corporate BSery. Would it make you feel better if they said yeah, we pocketed $50,688,363.53? Would it actually matter towards the on field product if they were going to do that regardless of what they tell the public? Nope. Not one bit. That’s why it’s typical corporate BSery. It’s not that it’s not wrong or not bad. It’s a throw away like that doesn’t mean anything. What matters is the overarching plans, which they have been honest about, and completely executing it and sticking with it…which they’ve mostly been bad at.

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Originally Posted by Bourgeois Zee

Christ.

1. The Reds are spending less than half of what they pledged they would have.
2. When the Reds receive payflex, the owners pocket it, as they have each year when they have (as seen in number one) pay less than half of what they pledged they'd spend.

It's not hard, man.

They're penurious buttheads.

Regardless, that's the last thing I'm saying. I'm done with you, not because I've been convinced, but because I'm convinced you never will be. At this point, I suspect you're either a Reds' employee told to troll this particular message board, a Castellini, or just trolling. Either way, it's not a great look.

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Trolls don’t post on message boards for 9 years and have been fans of the team since they were barely able to walk. And no I’m not a Reds employee. Most pro sports teams don’t allow employees to post on a message board.

“I disagree with your opinion”

“Screw you, troll!”

????

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Originally Posted by Old school 1983

It’s really not.

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It’s pretty textbook creative accounting.

We know from reporting the Reds should be receiving in excess of $200M between general league revenues and their portion of shared local revenues. Then they've got 52% of their local revenues on top of that, which should be more than enough to cover their operating expenses (assuming they're not colossally mismanaged). They've got plenty of cash they could spend. Honestly, the only safe space for them in peddling their poor mouth line is when they're engaged in some stage of rebuilding. Then they have the excuse this isn't the right time to open their wallet.

What we don't know is whether the expanded playoffs will get them to commit to more consistent spending (didn't happen this season) or if it will chase them into a lower tier of spending. Aligning payroll would indicate the latter.

The greatest trick the Devil ever played was getting baseball fans to talk about the business of baseball instead of the game itself

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Originally Posted by Old school 1983

Trolls don’t post on message boards for 9 years and have been fans of the team since they were barely able to walk. And no I’m not a Reds employee. Most pro sports teams don’t allow employees to post on a message board.

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Would you like to be? Can you play a few innings of shortstop?

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Originally Posted by marcshoe

Would you like to be? Can you play a few innings of shortstop?

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The only stop I’m making at this point is at the fridge. And it ain’t a short one.

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Originally Posted by Falls City Beer

It’s pretty textbook creative accounting.

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So you think the Reds new normal is spending $95M or so a year? There’s nothing creative about it. That’s their payroll. I’ve been told they won’t spend more in the future.

The last time the Reds had a large amount come off the books they spent in FA. That won’t happen again? Why not? Please explain.

Did the Reds not spend money in the 2019-2020 off-season?

Did they not spend money this off-season after getting under budget?

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Originally Posted by Old school 1983

See 2019-2020 off-season.

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lol

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Originally Posted by Wonderful Monds

lol

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So you think the Reds new normal is spending $95M or so a year? There’s nothing creative about it. That’s their payroll. I’ve been told they won’t spend more in the future.

The last time the Reds had a large amount come off the books they spent in FA. That won’t happen again? Why not? Please explain.

Did the Reds not spend money in the 2019-2020 off-season?

Did they not spend money this off-season after getting under budget?

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Originally Posted by Old school 1983

So you think the Reds new normal is spending $95M or so a year? There’s nothing creative about it. That’s their payroll. I’ve been told they won’t spend more in the future.

The last time the Reds had a large amount come off the books they spent in FA. That won’t happen again? Why not? Please explain.

Did the Reds not spend money in the 2019-2020 off-season?

Did they not spend money this off-season after getting under budget?

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One last time.

2019-2021 they didn’t increase spending. They just returned to their prior payroll as a percentage of revenue. You’ve been shown this multiple times.

They didn’t add money this season. They are way under both real dollars and percentage of revenue from last year.

If they go back to that same percentage as last year, and don’t go higher than that, they aren’t using that saved money.

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Originally Posted by Old school 1983

That’s not what i said. I have reservations if they can pull this out because of the lack of competency and inability of the front off to stick to a plan in the last decade. But for the first time I’ve seen them get make tough calls to get rid of players a year too early instead of too late. Which is leading to the butthurt. Not disagreement with me.

And no. No lying is ok IMO. But some matter and some doesnt. The Reds will spend what they are going to spend regardless of what they tell the public. It’s typical corporate BSery. Would it make you feel better if they said yeah, we pocketed $50,688,363.53? Would it actually matter towards the on field product if they were going to do that regardless of what they tell the public? Nope. Not one bit. That’s why it’s typical corporate BSery. It’s not that it’s not wrong or not bad. It’s a throw away like that doesn’t mean anything. What matters is the overarching plans, which they have been honest about, and completely executing it and sticking with it…which they’ve mostly been bad at.

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Then why all the rumpus?

You are happy they made some good moves to move toward a plan you are skeptical they can execute. It sounds like we agree these guys suck it's just whether they are dishonest and incompetent or just incompetent. We are less different than you think

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Originally Posted by LeatherPants

One last time.

2019-2021 they didn’t increase spending. They just returned to their prior payroll as a percentage of revenue. You’ve been shown this multiple times.

They didn’t add money this season. They are way under both real dollars and percentage of revenue from last year.

If they go back to that same percentage as last year, and don’t go higher than that, they aren’t using that saved money.

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One more time. The last time the Reds had serious money come off the books was 2019. They spent that money. It doesn’t take a huge deal of analysis to see that. A huge chunk of contracts were moved or came off the books to facilitate the later FA signings. Right now the Reds payroll is lower than it normally is as a percentage of revenue as shown by your own work. Also, even more money will be coming off the books in the following 2 seasons. There’s zero reason to believe the Reds are going to run out there with a $55M payroll. The surplus they moved off the books with their “resource realignment.” Will be spent. Their recent spending history demonstrates that in the years they are going for it.

As for spending money saved, this off-season, they got money off the books, said we can add now, and literally added pieces near each day for a week straight. If you don’t like the pieces fair enough, but if they were just looking to pocket the money like buttheads or whatever, they’d have just pocketed the money.

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Originally Posted by MoneyInTheBank

Then why all the rumpus?

You are happy they made some good moves to move toward a plan you are skeptical they can execute. It sounds like we agree these guys suck it's just whether they are dishonest and incompetent or just incompetent. We are less different than you think

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Bingo man. Hit the nail on the head. I’m skeptical, but I’m giving it a chance because of the wishy washy plans in the past and the general incompetence in executing trades in the last rebuild seems to have given way to tough decisions on guys before it’s too late. If they stick to this and the investments they made to the system in the past 5 years or so click, it might work.

It boggles my mind that anyone would think any real quality free agent would ever sign here again after the way this clown show of an off-season has played out.

Seriously, why would any player even worth signing to begin with ever come here again knowing that if anything goes even slightly wrong in the next year, the Reds will just immediately freak out and blow the whole thing up?

It’s not gonna happen.

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Originally Posted by RedTeamGo!

“I disagree with your opinion”

“Screw you, troll!”

????

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Anyone referring to their supposed fellow fans as being “butthurt” when the management sells off a bunch of fan favorites in salary dumps because the owners are depraved cheapskates, is fair game for being called out as a troll. Not even touching on all of the purposeful obtuseness on top of that.

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Originally Posted by Wonderful Monds

Anyone referring to their supposed fellow fans as being “butthurt” when the management sells off a bunch of fan favorites in salary dumps because the owners are depraved cheapskates, is fair game for being called out as a troll. Not even touching on all of the purposeful obtuseness on top of that.

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To be fair, I missed the butthurt comments. It was pretty fast and furious earlier.

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Originally Posted by Wonderful Monds

It boggles my mind that anyone would think any real quality free agent would ever sign here again after the way this clown show of an off-season has played out.

Seriously, why would any player even worth signing to begin with ever come here again knowing that if anything goes even slightly wrong in the next year, the Reds will just immediately freak out and blow the whole thing up?

It’s not gonna happen.

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Free agents not signing here has nothing to do with this offseason, though. The Reds have never really been able to sign quality FAs. I laid out before why the Cast signing was a perfect storm situation. If he had received the same offer from nearly any other team he would have taken it over the Reds, and it has nothing to do with how the FO operates.

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Originally Posted by Old school 1983

Bingo man. Hit the nail on the head. I’m skeptical, but I’m giving it a chance because of the wishy washy plans in the past and the general incompetence in executing trades in the last rebuild seems to have given way to tough decisions on guys before it’s too late. If they stick to this and the investments they made to the system in the past 5 years or so click, it might work.

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I think you may be mistaking my (and others) skepticism for "not giving it a chance". I'm watching, I'm hoping but it feels like a bad re-run

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Originally Posted by RedTeamGo!

To be fair, I missed the butthurt comments. It was pretty fast and furious earlier.

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I said butthurt because there was little analysis of the deals and the returns and just crying by a few here. The analysis by some was very superficial and short sided to the point where any response to it was memes, one word text message type responses, or drug references. People are acting like the Reds got nothing out of the deals and will soon be trying to move guys like India, will be selling off Castillo and Mahle for pennies on the dollar, won’t sign a good FA ever again, or never spending over $95M again in a season. In other threads I asked posters what the Reds should have gotten for Winker and Suarez from the Ms and was not given a legit response. After while the hyperbole or lack of true response comes off as butthurt. I’m upset Winker is gone, the rest, honestly I’m kinda meh about. But that doesn’t mean that I’m going to pretend everything they got in return is garbage, the Reds didn’t bring in a few solid MLB players this off-season, the Reds will never sign a good FA again, and the Reds won’t raise the payroll back up when the younger guys establish themselves.