It won't make a giant difference, but if we are running any numbers, I wouldn't do it under the assumption the pitcher is an automatic out.
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It won't make a giant difference, but if we are running any numbers, I wouldn't do it under the assumption the pitcher is an automatic out.
As long as they are that much worse, then it really doesn't matter.Quote:
Originally Posted by kaldaniels
The eighth guy gets pitched around, the pitcher bunts...
If guess if I looked at the game on such a micro level I would prefer the DH as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dom Heffner
Even in the NL the pitcher doesn't HAVE to hit, but unlike the AL there are consequences. Whether you choose to see it or not there is a lot of strategy built around that one simple difference. And that strategy doesn't begin in the late innings. It is a powerful disadvantage for the offensive team to have their pitcher leading off an inning - consequently it is a powerful advantage for the defensive team to force it.
You want to pitch around my #8 hitter to get to my pitcher, that's fine but you are increasing my chances of scoring a run the next inning. Or if I'm willing to pull my pitcher out of the game I can increase my chances of scoring this inning.
You are absolutely right - I was simply was rolling with the punches. Some pitchers are at least as good as the guy batting in front of them.Quote:
Originally Posted by kaldaniels
Single best thing ever written on the subject of the DH.Quote:
Originally Posted by cincinnati chili
I'd rather have Joe Mauer play catcher.Quote:
Originally Posted by jojo
And you would've had the pleasure of seeing him for about 70 games last year...Quote:
Originally Posted by M2
Or more if his league didn't have the DH as a crutch.Quote:
Originally Posted by jojo
Health is a skillset too
All good points you made.Quote:
Originally Posted by puca
I guess it all comes down to the fact that I think watching the pitcher hit is a real drag.
Even when the opposing pitcher is coming up, and it helps the Reds dance around an offensive threat, there's just a lot less excitement.
Runners in scoring position, 1b open, 2 outs, #8 hitter up, the threat is pretty much over. We still have to sit through 2 at bats which have a low chance of actually making anything happen.. It's all my opinion, but that's not exciting baseball to me.
Funny seeing how he started 102 games in a non-DH role last year.Quote:
Originally Posted by jojo
Hyperbole alert: The DH sucks because it robs the fan of seeing pitchers flail and guys gimp.Quote:
Originally Posted by westofyou
Not at catcher, and there is nothing funny about that.Quote:
Originally Posted by puca
Browbeat alert - No reason ever will be worth a DH in my worldQuote:
Originally Posted by jojo
Bingo.Quote:
Originally Posted by westofyou
So you are saying if not for the DH Mauer wouldn't have been able to start those 30 games at 1b? I have a hard time following that logic.Quote:
Originally Posted by jojo
Nevermind. I wasn't following the back and forth close enough.
However, even without the DH we wouldn't be robbed of seeing Joe Mauer bat. Maybe we wouldn't see Justin Morneau, Joe Mauer and and Ryan Doumit all get 4 ABs in the same game, but I could certainly live with that (even if I watched the Twins).
No it sucks because the essence of the game is that all nine players are expected to be players, taking part both at the plate and in the field. It sucks because it's more adult league softball than professional baseball.Quote:
Originally Posted by jojo
The DH sucks like giving Dwight Howard a designated free throw taker would suck.
I guess I don't understand this analogy. Is Dwight Howard expected to bring the ball up the court? No, a point guard does that (most of the time).Quote:
Originally Posted by M2
Is Votto expected to play SS or CF when the team wants him to? Nope.
All pro sports are very specialized.
Let's say we had a crystal ball. We have a chance to draft Latos. We look into the future and see that he'll never get a hit or walk in his entire career. We'd still draft him, right? Shaq was awful at shooting free throws (at least in his early career), but that's not what he was paid to do, so the team tolerated his deficiency there.
I mean, I understand, NL fans grew up seeing the pitcher hit, they like it, and will resist change. I get it. But I don't see how a pitcher haplessly getting his at bat "over with" makes him a complete player. It doesn't. 95% of pitchers are incompetent hitters compared to position players, but it really doesn't matter.
A position player that loses his ability to field, but can still hit, will still have a job somewhere. A pitcher that can't pitch, but still hits well for a pitcher is out of a job.
Quote:
Originally Posted by REDREAD
I remember when the AL pitchers hit, good times
But he is expected to take his free throw shots when he gets fouled. No one is letting Dwight Howard out of taking free throws just because he's rotten at it. It's his cross to bear and his teams have to weigh his assets in relation to his massive free throw shooting deficiency.Quote:
Originally Posted by REDREAD
This has nothing to do with players having different defensive assignments. Yet, in National League baseball, every player who has a defensive assignment also has an offensive assignment, and vice versa. It's fundamental to the sport itself, the prime requirement for being a player.
The biggest difference between the AL and NL style? The DH pretty much eliminates the double switch. It's pretty tough to see how eliminating the need to down grade a position player in order to compensate for the glaring specialization of the pitcher (a fair characterization of the double switch) makes the AL like rec league softball.Quote:
Originally Posted by M2
I get that a double switch might occasionally be curious but most often they are pedestrian after thoughts conerning intriguing strategy. Double switches aren't exactly a popular subject on redszone with threads devoted to them being both short and few and far between.
But lets be honest. Comparing the DH to giving Dwight Howard a designated free throw taker is a false analogy. A more accurate analogy given the "strategy" associated with letting pitchers hit would be this-not having the DH is like switching Pau Gasol for Jordan Hill (or if youre retro, AC Green for Kurt Rambis) because Dwight Howard can't shoot free throws.
So again, it's actually the pitcher that is a more specialized player than a DH (especially since the modern DH often rotates between DH and position play) and the strategy used to compensate for the specialization of the pitcher generally involves downgrading a position player as part of a double switch.
How does that make the AL like beer league softball and the NL enlightened? In the abstract (put yourself in the shoes of a person just learning about baseball) how does that even make sense?
I don't think you understand what browbeat means.Quote:
Originally Posted by westofyou
BTW, the above is actually a closed mindset alert.
I know what I know and I know I think the DH is a load of crap and no amount of hyperbole about how good it is can browbeat me into excepting it.Quote:
Originally Posted by jojo
You really don't understand what browbeat means.Quote:
Originally Posted by westofyou
If you say so.Quote:
Originally Posted by jojo
Quote:
Originally Posted by jojo
You'd certainly be the one to educate us.
There are so many different subtle elements of strategy in play when the pitcher hits.
Teams are rewarded for having a complete athlete when they have a pitcher who can hit a little and bunt. That may not be interesting to you, but it is to me and a lot of other fans.
I remember Koufax talking about how important it is to get the number 8 man for the third out, so the pitcher will have to lead off the next inning.
It's not about being a traditionalist. It's about a better brand of baseball, more thinking, more strategy, and to Chili's point, more punishment for lacking the basic skills of the game.
:beerme: Here, here!Quote:
Originally Posted by RFS62
You're bad at analogies.Quote:
Originally Posted by jojo
You're also rotten at summation.Quote:
Originally Posted by jojo
Hard to make this simpler: some people (let's call them baseball fans) like the requirement that field players, even the pitcher, have to hit and that all hitters have to play the field. We don't care to see pitchers and DHs get a free pass from having to the things they're not good at doing.
A little voice is telling me I don't think this thread will convince many people to switch sides of the DH street.
At the risk of squelching the latest contrived meme, id' simply refer you to any online dictionary for the definition of "browbeat". Ironically, it's actually ad homimen to label a rational argument in opposition to one's opinion as browbeating.Quote:
Originally Posted by RFS62
It's also a rarity to have a pitcher who can hit. On any given year about 50% of pitcher PAs end in a strikeout or a bunt. The roughly ten percent of the time the PA ends with a bunt isn't a symbol of grande strategy. It's a concession that roughly 85% of the time the pitcher is going to make an out anyway. If there is a man on first or second base with fewer than two outs, the pitcher almost always bunts. If he swings away, he almost always makes an out. There is intrigue there?Quote:
Originally Posted by RFS62
BTW, I've never said that enjoying the NL style of play is wrong. I watch more AL AND NL baseball than a sane individual should. Just to point out a little more irony... I'm not the one arguing that one style of play should be abolished. I've simply pointed out that the AL style is a very valid style and several arguments often used by fans of the NL style to denigrate the AL style frankly, aren't valid or consistent with the facts. This thread has several such examples.
I haven't even argued that one is wrong to disagree with my position on the DH.
The NL style doesn't punish one for lacking skill. If a position player can hit but can't field, stick him in left because "left field defense" doesn't matter (remember the Dunn argument concerning player value and how those who suggested player value should consider both offensive and defensive value were browbeaten actually by many of the same people who in this very thread have suggested the DH should be abolished or the AL is a style for non-thinkers?). Pitchers can't hit a lick and they can potentially bat 4 times a game. Double switches generally involve a player of lesser skill replacing a player of greater skill. It's a stretch to argue the NL punishes one for lacking skill because the NL game doesn't do so consistently.Quote:
Originally Posted by RFS62
Hard to make this simpler: some people (lets call them baseball fans) think it's perfectly valid to prefer watching Edgar Martinez hit versus Aaron Harang and think it's completely arbitrary to demand that field players, even the pitcher, have to hit and that all hitters have to play the field. We can certainly understand how someone might revel in a great glove getting to play the field because a major league quality bat is taking PAs away from a specialized player that is largely encouraged to ignore hitting once he is signed and enters the player development system.Quote:
Originally Posted by M2
If someone would prefer to watch a pitcher take PAs and the relatively small amount of in game strategy that gets evoked to compensate for purposefully placing a black hole in the lineup, that's great. Each to their own.
7 pages and I still hate the DH.
I like the current set up. Change is unecessary.
I am glad you mentioned online dictionary. I used one for the word GIMMICK. It showed this:Quote:
Originally Posted by jojo
BAM! The reason the DH was first introduced. Even Dr. Sheldon Cooper cannot refute that truth (although he'd try lol). Keep GIMMICKS out of baseball.Quote:
a trick or device used to attract business or attention <a marketing gimmick>
It's not arbitrary, it's called being a professional athlete.Quote:
Originally Posted by jojo
Now there's an arbitrary line. What's the argument for using a DH to replace a bad hitting pitcher, but not a bad hitting middle IF? I mean, who wants to see Brendan Ryan or Darwin Barney at the plate?Quote:
Originally Posted by jojo
I think all other teams should bat only pitchers, while the Reds can replace weak sister hitters with better ones at any time.
That would solve a lot of my problems as a fan.
Let's do that.
The history of the pinch hitter refutes an argument about gimmicks or pontifications that the NL style demands everyone "pull his own weight".Quote:
Originally Posted by RedFanAlways1966
The DH is a natural extension of the emergence of relief specialists which gave rise to widespread acceptance of pinch hitting for players who were not forced out of the game by injury. Why? Because relief pitchers generally really sucked at hitting- even in "the good ole days".
You should be against pinch hitters for the same reason you're arguing against the DH.Quote:
Originally Posted by M2
Do you think pinch hitting should be abolished?
Chapman hasn't had a single PA in a Reds uniform. Is he a professional athlete?
For those of you obsessed with seeing more "the best versus the best" match ups, let me suggest the following rule changes:
Victories will now be determined by total points accumulated in the following 4 events.
1. Home run derby. The best sluggers go head to head.
2. Race to home. The fastest players compete for the best time running the bases.
3. Web gem spectacular. Judges rate the most astonishing defensive plays like figure skating.
4. Pitching showcase. The pitchers throw baseballs through rings and into buckets for points and carnival prizes.
What do you think? In the meantime the rest of us can enjoy actual baseball games (the nine versus nine variety).
Define nine versus nine?Quote:
Originally Posted by LeDoux
NL rules. AL = 10 versus 10.Quote:
Originally Posted by jojo
Do I detect interest in the new proposed format?