Phil Castellini surprised that Opening Day tickets still unsold

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by bucksfan2

Never understood people who allow someone else to effect their happiness. I will watch the Reds because I enjoy watching the Reds. I will go to games with my family because my girls want to go to the games. I will buy overpriced beer because I want to drink beer and watch a baseball game.

Owners are going to get their money whether or not I decide to go to a game.

---

I was not (and still am not) a Marge fan, I didn't stop going then either.

Here's the Reds biggest problem ownership wise, there are too many cooks in the kitchen and most of them are in the business of making a lot of money.

Quote:

---

• W. Joseph Williams Jr., the chairman of Cincinnati-based North American Properties, a developer and operator of a range of real estate projects across the nation. He is chairman of the Reds. Williams’ late father, W. Joseph Williams Sr., was a former owner of the Reds; the son is a former investor in both the Baltimore Orioles and the St. Louis Cardinals. Williams’ son, Dick, worked for the Reds for 15 years but stepped down as the head of baseball operations in 2020; he now works at North American Properties.

• Thomas L. Williams, the president and CEO of North American Properties and W. Joseph Williams Jr.’s brother. He is one of the principal owners of Skyline Chili, purchasing it in 2020 to ensure the iconic local brand remained in local ownership. He is vice chairman of the Reds.

• Lindner Reds Baseball IV LLC. The company, registered in Colorado, was created in the fall of 2005, ahead of the late Carl H. Lindner Jr. selling his controlling interest in the team to the group led by Castellini.

• Frank Cohen, senior managing director of core and real estate group at Blackstone, a publicly-traded company that calls itself the world’s largest alternative asset manager. Cohen is a fourth-generation Cincinnatian and graduate of Cincinnati's exclusive Seven Hills School. In 2014, he purchased a minority interest in the team previously held by the Louise Dieterle Nippert Trust. A source with knowledge of the deal told The Enquirer Cohen acquired a less than 5 percent stake in the team. Nippert's late husband, Louis, was principal Reds owner from 1973-80, during which time the team won two world titles.

• William J. Reik, who has owned a share of the Reds under various ownership groups going back more than 30 years. Reik is a former managing director of William D. Witter Inc. investment firm who later ran his own firm. He is married to the ex-wife of former Reds general manager Jim Bowden.

• Buy Buy Baseball LLC, now controlled by the heirs of the late Broadway producer Rick Steiner, who lived in Cincinnati's North Avondale neighborhood. Steiner, who died in 2016, had a string of critical and commercial successes on Broadway, including "The Producers, "Jersey Boys" and "Hairspray".

• EMK Investment Co. LLC.

• Larry Sheakley, who bought Springdale-based Sheakley Group from his father in 1980 and turned the provider of human resources into a company with $700 million in 2020 revenue and nearly 13,000 employees nationwide. He also is an owner of FC Cincinnati and is a major supporter of the University of Cincinnati and various local arts organizations.

• Jeffrey L. Wyler, the leader of a group of auto dealerships that had more than $1.3 billion in 2020 and ranked in 2021 as the seventh-largest privately-held company in the Cincinnati region.

• Harry Fath, who once owned Fath Properties, which has apartments in Ohio, Kentucky and Texas. Fath and his wife made news in 2021 by donating $50 million to suburban Cincinnati's St. Xavier High School, of which he is an alumnus. In 2018, they gave $50 million to the Cincinnati Zoo & Botanical Garden.

• Jeffrey L. Gendell, CEO of IES Holdings, a Houston-based designer and installer of integrated electrical and technology systems along with providing infrastructure products and services. Gendell, a baseball fan who is a Wyoming High School graduate, also is the founder and CEO of Tontine Associates, a Greenwich, Connecticut-based hedge fund.

• Edwin J. Rigaud/AACE. Rigaud is a serial entrepreneur who is a former Procter & Gamble executive, becoming one of the first Black research executives and the first Black vice president for the multinational company. The New Orleans native later was the first executive director of the National Underground Railroad Freedom Center. AACE is a group of Black investors in the Reds, created in 2005 when ownership of the team was being prepared for sale to the Castellini group. Its members include Carl Satterwhite, the owner of River City Furniture and another former P&G executive, as well as Dr. Alvin Crawford, a retired orthopedic surgeon at Cincinnati Children's Hospital Medical Center, and his wife, Jean.

• HKR Baseball LLC.

• Ronald L. Sargent, a native of Fort Thomas in Northern Kentucky and a former chairman of Staples, the office supply store. He currently is the chairman of the John F. Kennedy Presidential Library in Boston. A former Kroger employee, he has served on the company's board since 2006. He also is on the boards of Wells Fargo and Five Below.

• John H. Wyant. Wyant, a Hamilton native, is a former P&G executive who later ran broadcasting and venture capital firms. He and his wife, Peg, are part-owners of FC Cincinnati.

• George H. Vincent/Queen City Diamond LLC. VIncent has been the managing partner of the downtown law firm Dinsmore & Shohl since 2007 and led it during a period of significant growth. The former Hamilton County GOP chairman and current Cincinnati State Technical and Community College chairman has guided Dinsmore, which has more than 700 lawyers, onto the National Law Journal 250 list of America's biggest law firms. Queen City Diamond is a group of investors that Vincent put together. Dinsmore is the Reds' law firm, helping guide Castellini in his purchase of the team.

• Heading for Home LLC.

• Art Hauser. The former Xavier University star, who later played in the NFL and AFL, eventually returned to Cincinnati (the hometown of his wife) after his playing days. He opened an insurance agency, which he sold to his son, Chris, in 1996.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ron Madden

Reds Not For Sale:
Absolutely Zero Chance says Phil Castellini Team President

Bobby Nightengale @nightengalejr

The Reds cut payroll for the second consecutive offseason, but Phil Castellini says there’s absolutely no thoughts of his family selling the team.

More on the cost cutting as the Reds say they took a $40M loss in 2020.
Story with @alexcoolidge cincinnati.com

---

I just flat out do not believe they were negative $40M in 2020. They may have "lost" $40M in revenue.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by HammerTime

I just flat out do not believe they were negative $40M in 2020. They may have "lost" $40M in revenue.

---

Yep, Instead of making $200 million they made $160 million. Hence go back to the Walter O'Malley statement in Chip's post. These guys ain't losing money.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LeatherPants

No wait, Clemenza is Krall. Tessio was always the smart one, HE needs to run things.

There. Now that's figured out.

---

Clemenza had bigger balls, he was ready to ace a cop over a rug and Tessio cowered to the Don in the theater in front of Vito

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by cumberlandreds

Yep, Instead of making $200 million they made $160 million. Hence go back to the Walter O'Malley statement in Chip's post. These guys ain't losing money.

---

Someone on twitter (I know it's a cesspool) brought up a good point, because wasn't the BAM-tech payment in 2020? Because that's $70 million or so that every team received that year that, for whatever reason, doesn't count as "revenue". More than enough to make up for any loss in revenue.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by westofyou

Clemenza had bigger balls, he was ready to ace a cop over a rug and Tessio cowered to the Don in the theater in front of Vito

---

They could just put Hagen in charge, but he isn't Sicilian.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by StRedlegs900

That's the entire purpose of said billboard.

---

:lol:

Umm, not exactly.

The entire purpose of the billboard was to get other people to pay for advertising their podcast, by attaching it to a theme that most Reds fans feel strongly about.

And it worked. They even got to pocket a few hundred dollars on top of the fact.

I wish people would quit pushing the narrative that it was all about getting Bob to sell, when 80 percent of the billboard is advertising a podcast.

To review. They were disingenuous. They got away with it. Just like Castellini is disingenuous and gets away with it.

Anyone who says differently is selling something. Probably that stupid podcast I hope no one consumes, because people like that suck. The end.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by westofyou

I was not (and still am not) a Marge fan, I didn't stop going then either.

Here's the Reds biggest problem ownership wise, there are too many cooks in the kitchen and most of them are in the business of making a lot of money.

---

Is there any other ownership group in professional sports that has the ownership interest split as many ways as the Reds? I can't think of any. It's not unusual to have a few minority owners, but in those situations it's a very small split of the interest. I can't even imagine how decisions are made in this group when the controlling owner has what a 35% stake? Everything about the ownership situation with this organization is just reeks, and that goes from the set up to the nepotism involved.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LeatherPants

Someone on twitter (I know it's a cesspool) brought up a good point, because wasn't the BAM-tech payment in 2020? Because that's $70 million or so that every team received that year that, for whatever reason, doesn't count as "revenue". More than enough to make up for any loss in revenue.

---

I think I have read that the Bam Tech money doesn't count as revenue but have no idea why?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by cumberlandreds

I think I have read that the Bam Tech money doesn't count as revenue but have no idea why?

---

It's so they don't have to share it with the players.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by cumberlandreds

I think I have read that the Bam Tech money doesn't count as revenue but have no idea why?

---

Can someone explain the BAM tech thing? I'm not familiar with it

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bob Sheed

80 percent of the billboard is advertising a podcast.

---

Just give it another week and 468% of the billboard will be advertising a podcast

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MoneyInTheBank

Can someone explain the BAM tech thing? I'm not familiar with it

---

The tech that drives Disney Plus was developed by a company that was owned by MLB, who developed the MLB app. MLB sold most of their chunk of the company to Disney for $1.9 billion, with each team getting about $66 million. MLB has a 5% stake remaining in the company, with each team getting something like $2 million a year from it.

(These numbers might be a bit off, but I'm doing it from memory because I'm lazy)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MoneyInTheBank

Can someone explain the BAM tech thing? I'm not familiar with it

---

Here's their website. Basically its the ability to access multiple things on multiple devices whenever you want. MLB technologies first devised this nearly 20 years ago.

https://www.bamtechmedia.com/

Here's the original Bam Tech announcement from 2017. Numbers changed since then.

https://mlb.nbcsports.com/2017/08/09...ee-none-of-it/

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MoneyInTheBank

I'm not a subscriber so I can't read the article but Nightingale does mention Castellini whining (my words, not his) about a $40M loss in 2020.

Not a great source but I did find this and I can't help but wonder if a really rich guy who has closed books may be bending the truth a bit...

https://www.pennbets.com/mlb-revenue...-ticket-sales/

The chart in the linked article estimates the Reds lost $43.7M in "potential ticket revenue". Are they trying to disingenuously peddle this figure as a net loss?

---

When a baseball owner says he "lost 40 million".. what he really means is that he made 40 million less than he hoped.
We had a post on this.
Some "insider" in 2020 claimed the club was losing money, stated stuff like the club has over 100 million in miscellaneous expenses, etc.
We did the math, using his numbers, and the conclusion was, at most, the club lost 10 million before factoring in the savings of no minor leagues.
The players ate the bulk of the losses, since they were paid prorated -- which is consistent with the owners saying that payroll is their largest expense.
So if you lose your largest expense, that really cushions the blow of not selling tickets.
I know you that you know all this stuff, I'm preaching to the choir, just wanted to say how outrageous that 40 million dollar "loss" claim is.
Articles like this don't talk about how the players not being paid for the missed games while the owners still got TV money (IIRC) for lost games.

Quote:

---

Thomas L. Williams, the president and CEO of North American Properties and W. Joseph Williams Jr.’s brother. He is one of the principal owners of Skyline Chili, purchasing it in 2020 to ensure the iconic local brand remained in local ownership.

---

Cincinnati is really bizarre sometimes

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Redsfaithful

Cincinnati is really bizarre sometimes

---

I thought Skyline had more charm when it was a joint nestled in little brick shopping malls with six seat counters. Now it's pure Fast food

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by cumberlandreds

Well, that is certainly bad news. :( The mediocrity, at best, will continue for the foreseeable future.

---

No more peaks or valleys :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bob Sheed

:lol:

Umm, not exactly.

The entire purpose of the billboard was to get other people to pay for advertising their podcast, by attaching it to a theme that most Reds fans feel strongly about.

And it worked. They even got to pocket a few hundred dollars on top of the fact.

I wish people would quit pushing the narrative that it was all about getting Bob to sell, when 80 percent of the billboard is advertising a podcast.

To review. They were disingenuous. They got away with it. Just like Castellini is disingenuous and gets away with it.

Anyone who says differently is selling something. Probably that stupid podcast I hope no one consumes, because people like that suck. The end.

---

No one thought the billboard would force Bob to sell the team.
The purpose was to publicly express displeasure and embarrass Bob and the Reds.
If you didn't want to donate to it, then that's fine, but you don't know why other people like me did donate to it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by bucksfan2

Never understood people who allow someone else to effect their happiness. I will watch the Reds because I enjoy watching the Reds. I will go to games with my family because my girls want to go to the games. I will buy overpriced beer because I want to drink beer and watch a baseball game.

Owners are going to get their money whether or not I decide to go to a game.

---

I mean my thing is, I don’t enjoy watching the Reds when they suck anymore. They’ve sucked my whole life, I’ve had enough of that game. It gets even less fun when they trade off all the best players and replace them with scrubs and has beens.

Too much bad baseball for me.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bob Sheed

:lol:

Umm, not exactly.

The entire purpose of the billboard was to get other people to pay for advertising their podcast, by attaching it to a theme that most Reds fans feel strongly about.

And it worked. They even got to pocket a few hundred dollars on top of the fact.

I wish people would quit pushing the narrative that it was all about getting Bob to sell, when 80 percent of the billboard is advertising a podcast.

To review. They were disingenuous. They got away with it. Just like Castellini is disingenuous and gets away with it.

Anyone who says differently is selling something. Probably that stupid podcast I hope no one consumes, because people like that suck. The end.

---

Ok

Not sure why you guys are so bent out of shape about the billboard. Who cares, don't donate money if you don't want to support it or whatever podcast is assocated with it. I think it would be funny if it gets put up, obviously not gonna make him sell tho.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by HammerTime

Not sure why you guys are so bent out of shape about the billboard. Who cares, don't donate money if you don't want to support it or whatever podcast is assocated with it. I think it would be funny if it gets put up, obviously not gonna make him sell tho.

---

Pretty much. People can spend their money however they see fit. Doesn’t bother me one bit. It’s seems like a bad way to spend money to me. Like you said, it won’t convince Bob to sell. I mean if it gives people some sort of catharsis because the Reds got rid of some familiar faces and lowered the payroll a bit, more power to them.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by REDREAD

When a baseball owner says he "lost 40 million".. what he really means is that he made 40 million less than he hoped.
We had a post on this.
Some "insider" in 2020 claimed the club was losing money, stated stuff like the club has over 100 million in miscellaneous expenses, etc.
We did the math, using his numbers, and the conclusion was, at most, the club lost 10 million before factoring in the savings of no minor leagues.
The players ate the bulk of the losses, since they were paid prorated -- which is consistent with the owners saying that payroll is their largest expense.
So if you lose your largest expense, that really cushions the blow of not selling tickets.
I know you that you know all this stuff, I'm preaching to the choir, just wanted to say how outrageous that 40 million dollar "loss" claim is.
Articles like this don't talk about how the players not being paid for the missed games while the owners still got TV money (IIRC) for lost games.

---

I can only speak from my experience with the Reds. As the person who manages the Season Tickets, I don't know how much the Reds truly lost in 2020. But what I do know as an enticement to keep the revenue from the 2020 season tickets, they gave you a 10% credit if you rolled over your season tickets to 2021. I don't know what percentage of the Reds revenue is generated from Season Ticket sales, but I am sure it is a healthy portion. I also am not smart enough to know how they would have booked that loss. And I don't believe GABP opened up to capacity until after Memorial Day last year.

FWIW I do believe they lost money in 2020 and were probably able to book a bigger loss than what they actually lost. And I wouldn't be surprised if the revenue was muted in 2021. I don't know what happened with the TV contracts for 2020, but I would imagine there was some kind of pro-ration going on there as well as players salary.

I am in no way excusing Castellini for operating the way he did. I do think the current state of the club has to do with a few things. First off what happened in 2020, prior to March when the world shut down, the Reds spent pretty liberally in the FA market. I do think the loss scared him away from really opening up the pocketbooks for the foreseeable future, but an issue with a team like the Reds reared its head, if you spend FA dollars you can't miss. Moose, Shogo, and Suarez were all whiffs over the past two seasons. Had Moose and Suarez played to their contracts, the Reds may be sitting in a different position right now.

As a fan it sucks, but back to the current topic, it won't cause me to follow them any less or enjoy their games any less.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by bucksfan2

I can only speak from my experience with the Reds. As the person who manages the Season Tickets, I don't know how much the Reds truly lost in 2020. But what I do know as an enticement to keep the revenue from the 2020 season tickets, they gave you a 10% credit if you rolled over your season tickets to 2021. I don't know what percentage of the Reds revenue is generated from Season Ticket sales, but I am sure it is a healthy portion. I also am not smart enough to know how they would have booked that loss. And I don't believe GABP opened up to capacity until after Memorial Day last year.

FWIW I do believe they lost money in 2020 and were probably able to book a bigger loss than what they actually lost. And I wouldn't be surprised if the revenue was muted in 2021. I don't know what happened with the TV contracts for 2020, but I would imagine there was some kind of pro-ration going on there as well as players salary.

I am in no way excusing Castellini for operating the way he did. I do think the current state of the club has to do with a few things. First off what happened in 2020, prior to March when the world shut down, the Reds spent pretty liberally in the FA market. I do think the loss scared him away from really opening up the pocketbooks for the foreseeable future, but an issue with a team like the Reds reared its head, if you spend FA dollars you can't miss. Moose, Shogo, and Suarez were all whiffs over the past two seasons. Had Moose and Suarez played to their contracts, the Reds may be sitting in a different position right now.

As a fan it sucks, but back to the current topic, it won't cause me to follow them any less or enjoy their games any less.

---

The payflex they "saved" during the teardown should have taken care of any losses from 2020 and 2021 as they didn't use it towards payroll.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LeatherPants

The payflex they "saved" during the teardown should have taken care of any losses from 2020 and 2021 as they didn't use it towards payroll.

---

Exactly. Ownership did not utter a peep during those highly profitable tanking years. That more than made up for any supposed "loss" during 2020.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MoneyInTheBank

Just give it another week and 468% of the billboard will be advertising a podcast

---

"Water? You mean like from the toilet?!"

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LeatherPants

The payflex they "saved" during the teardown should have taken care of any losses from 2020 and 2021 as they didn't use it towards payroll.

---

Yea, I would be surprised if many business operate this way.

I don't like what the Reds are doing, and I do think the reality of what has happened falls somewhere in the middle between what the Reds fans believe/want and what Castellini says.

If I were a business owner and lost my shirt over 2020 and 2021, I would be a little cautious going forward.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by bucksfan2

Yea, I would be surprised if many business operate this way.

I don't like what the Reds are doing, and I do think the reality of what has happened falls somewhere in the middle between what the Reds fans believe/want and what Castellini says.

If I were a business owner and lost my shirt over 2020 and 2021, I would be a little cautious going forward.

---

Hey if they want to open their books to show they were in the red by $40 million, they are free to do so. Until they do, I call BS.


Once again, for those in the back, losing revenue doesn't mean you lost money, it just means you probably didn't make as much money as you were going to.

Of course we want our team to spend more money but the real issue is how they're spending the money

Are guys like Moustakas, Pham, Solano and Minor really the best use of $36 million?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LeatherPants

Hey if they want to open their books to show they were in the red by $40 million, they are free to do so. Until they do, I call BS.


Once again, for those in the back, losing revenue doesn't mean you lost money, it just means you probably didn't make as much money as you were going to.

---

You know they're not going to open their books so where does this get you? Ownership isn't changing so let's rally to get guys in there that can judge talent better

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sea Ray

You know they're not going to open their books so where does this get you? Ownership isn't changing so let's rally to get guys in there that can judge talent better

---

Ownership isn't going to fire Krall because we talk about it on a message board, so where does that get you?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LeatherPants

Ownership isn't going to fire Krall because we talk about it on a message board, so where does that get you?

---

Krall will be fired before the Castellini family sells

I've seen pressure work to get Dick Wagner and Jim Bowden fired

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LeatherPants

Hey if they want to open their books to show they were in the red by $40 million, they are free to do so. Until they do, I call BS.


Once again, for those in the back, losing revenue doesn't mean you lost money, it just means you probably didn't make as much money as you were going to.

---

Opening their books is a pipe dream. No company that isn't required by law to open their books voluntarily does so.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by bucksfan2

Opening their books is a pipe dream. No company that isn't required by law to open their books voluntarily does so.

---

It would serve no purpose. Even if they did, folks would claim that they're burying money and even if they got past that, there'd be an argument of how much profit they should take. There'd be a ton of folks who think they should take zero profit until they sell the team.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by bucksfan2

Opening their books is a pipe dream. No company that isn't required by law to open their books voluntarily does so.

---

It's official, I'll continue believing they didn't lose "their shirts" and are cheep buttheads.

The only measure of success is winning the pennant.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LeatherPants

It's official, I'll continue believing they didn't lose "their shirts" and are cheep buttheads.

---

I think Oakland and TB are "cheep buttheads" but at least they know how to judge talent and put contending teams on the field. If those teams had payrolls like ours they'd be golden

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by bucksfan2

Opening their books is a pipe dream. No company that isn't required by law to open their books voluntarily does so.

---

Not to the public. But plenty of companies are compelled to open their books to 3rd party auditors. MLB teams should be no different.