Jay Bruce hopes swing tweak leads to more success in 2016

Cincinnati Enquirer article on Jay Bruce and an adjustment to his swing.

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“’The chains of habit are too light to be felt until they are too strong to be broken,’” the 28-year-old said, quoting Johnson by the way of Buffett. “That’s what I felt like. You didn’t notice it, and then you’re like, ‘S--t, man, there it is.’”

Bruce has always kept his left elbow high as he readies his swing, and it never really affected his performance. During his first six years in the big leagues, he hit .257 with a .330 on-base and .482 slugging.

But slowly over time, his hands started creeping up higher than his elbow. Over the last two seasons, they’ve hovered near his ear as he loads for his swing. Not-so-coincidentally, he’s hit just .222 with a .695 OPS over that span.

He’s worked since Christmas to return his hands to a more powerful load position next the ‘C’ logo on his upper chest. His teammates have already noticed.

“The guys who have seen my swing, they’ve asked, ‘Did you lower your hands?’” Bruce said. “The affirmation that it looks different is good.”

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http://www.cincinnati.com/story/spor...2016/81372788/

Sort of like the "best shape of my life" annual rite of passage into a new season. Swing adjustments that are going to make the season great.

It's clear some kind of adjustment is needed -- glad to see he's trying. I'm hoping to see a quieter setup all around.

Hmm, it was my understanding that he was just unlucky and that he would be fine.

Well, at least he's being proactive. That's the beauty of the modern age where a player has endless video where some of these things can be sorted out. It probably won't help pitch recognition, and I have to wonder where his elbow was when he was on a tear for a few weeks, but it's good he's aware of a problem.

Let's hope it works better for Bruce than it did for Heisey.

http://www.foxsports.com/ohio/story/...raining-030314

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To that end, Heisey has dropped his hands lower in his batting stance, "And so far it is working. This early in spring you don't want to peak too soon but it is good to get your confidence back."

And the hands? "Lowering my hands relaxes me," he said. "The higher your hands, the more tension in your shoulders and less flexibility.

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The difference in Heisey and Bruce, of course, is Heisey had no solid seasons to look back to (or return to form). Hey, maybe it helps and he's a valuable piece again come July

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Originally Posted by lollipopcurve

It's clear some kind of adjustment is needed -- glad to see he's trying. I'm hoping to see a quieter setup all around.

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amen! I can barely watch him or Billyst the plate....quiet things down!

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Originally Posted by 757690

Let's hope it works better for Bruce than it did for Heisey.

http://www.foxsports.com/ohio/story/...raining-030314

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I recall that it DID work for Heisey, but then he abandoned it or couldn't maintain the adjustment for whatever reason, and boom, back to suck town he went.

He'll hit 50.

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Originally Posted by TheBigLebowski

He'll hit 50.

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I don't doubt it.....25 from May 1-May 14 and 25 from July 15-July 30 and all with at least a 6 run lead or a 6 run deficit

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Originally Posted by RedlegJake

The difference in Heisey and Bruce, of course, is Heisey had no solid seasons to look back to (or return to form). Hey, maybe it helps and he's a valuable piece again come July

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And Heisey went back to his old form by mid-season that year. He actually started off with some success that April.

When muscle memory is that ingrained, it is an incredibly difficult thing to do to hold on to a change for the long term. That said, I believe innate talent allows a player to do just that, and Bruce certainly has more talent than Heisey.

Spoiler alert: it won't/doesn't.

HE. IS. THE. WORST!a!!!!

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Originally Posted by Larry Schuler

HE. IS. THE. WORST!a!!!!

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Nah, just among them.

its never to late.....but my biggest fear has never been his swing or his hand placement.....I agree, his swing just didnt look right these past few years but I am 100% of the opinion that when a player struggles, he looks for the easiest and quickest fix, or the simplest fix.....and in this case, tweaking his hands sounds like the easiest thing to do for multiple reasons......

but when you go back and watch video, something I do way to much of in the winter...and something my kids probably would tell you that I am obsessed with(watching video to correct things) ...Jay Bruce's swing is the least thing I would be worrying about....I hope it works for him and there is a reason I am not working as a hitting coach...its obvious he/they know way more than I do....but I see a huge issue with Jays pitch recognition from his early years to these past few years....
dont get me wrong, Jay has always had problems seeing the curve and slider, his problem these past few years has been once he realizes the pitch is a curve/slider, its to late to hold off, he has already committed to swing....in his early years you can see Jay step, load, shift his weight, start to flow his hands through the zone then hold back......that my friends is 100% pitch recognition and its something that can be fixed but he needs to be working on that instead of trying to fix muscle memory, which is very hard to do and takes years to fix.

again, I pray I am wrong and this tweak rights his swing wrongs, but until Jay starts learning to see a pitch for what it is then I think he is still going to flare open his hips and shoulders on sliders in the dirt, Jay is still going to take those half hearted cuts on curves that he though were fastballs.....

time will tell, but methinks age is catching up with his muscles and his eyes, tweaking his hands might help him, we will see....I still think the bigger issue is seeing the pitch adn that comes with time watching film on pitchers and time in the batters box with pitchers who will wear him out.

I am pulling for him either way.

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Originally Posted by lidspinner

its never to late.....but my biggest fear has never been his swing or his hand placement.....I agree, his swing just didnt look right these past few years but I am 100% of the opinion that when a player struggles, he looks for the easiest and quickest fix, or the simplest fix.....and in this case, tweaking his hands sounds like the easiest thing to do for multiple reasons......

but when you go back and watch video, something I do way to much of in the winter...and something my kids probably would tell you that I am obsessed with(watching video to correct things) ...Jay Bruce's swing is the least thing I would be worrying about....I hope it works for him and there is a reason I am not working as a hitting coach...its obvious he/they know way more than I do....but I see a huge issue with Jays pitch recognition from his early years to these past few years....
dont get me wrong, Jay has always had problems seeing the curve and slider, his problem these past few years has been once he realizes the pitch is a curve/slider, its to late to hold off, he has already committed to swing....in his early years you can see Jay step, load, shift his weight, start to flow his hands through the zone then hold back......that my friends is 100% pitch recognition and its something that can be fixed but he needs to be working on that instead of trying to fix muscle memory, which is very hard to do and takes years to fix.

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I'm certainly no scout, but that has been my take too. When he swings over the top of that slider, missing by 18", it seems that he's almost always swinging at what he thinks is a fastball. Sure, every guy swings and misses on occasion. But not everybody gets fooled as much as Bruce does. Having his swing stay in the zone longer won't help him put the bat in the right spot.

That said, perhaps his swing issues drove him to start his swing too early, forcing him to commit before he had given himself enough time to read the pitch. Perhaps being quicker to the ball will let hit wait longer and get better reads. I honestly don't know, but I agree that it looks like an issue of recognition and timing more than anything else.

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Originally Posted by RedsManRick

I'm certainly no scout, but that has been my take too. When he swings over the top of that slider, missing by 18", it seems that he's almost always swinging at what he thinks is a fastball. Sure, every guy swings and misses on occasion. But not everybody gets fooled as much as Bruce does. Having his swing stay in the zone longer won't help him put the bat in the right spot.

That said, perhaps his swing issues drove him to start his swing too early, forcing him to commit before he had given himself enough time to read the pitch. Perhaps being quicker to the ball will let hit wait longer and get better reads. I honestly don't know, but I agree that it looks like an issue of recognition and timing more than anything else.

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I don't know. As a golfer I know simple things, like your alignment being off can cause swing havoc. A split second move with you hips can send you ball into the woods on a regular basis. Often times its the little things that cause major problems.

I am not doubting what Jay is saying, it seems a little odd that a guy who has been in the league this long, would not have the habit of watching video, or having someone do it for them. I know tweaking your swing in the middle of the season is difficult, but one would assume a two days off surrounded by a bye could give someone time to really work on a swing tweak. Hopefully he comes back and mashes this season and is either traded or comes back on a reasonable option year next season.

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Originally Posted by TheBigLebowski

He'll hit 50.

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Grounders to 2nd? :O) Just kidding. I have high hopes for Jay too.

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Originally Posted by RedsManRick

That said, perhaps his swing issues drove him to start his swing too early, forcing him to commit before he had given himself enough time to read the pitch. Perhaps being quicker to the ball will let hit wait longer and get better reads. I honestly don't know, but I agree that it looks like an issue of recognition and timing more than anything else.

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I still think we're underestimating the effect the shift has had on his production. His ground ball, line drive, and fly ball rates have all stayed fairly steady throughout his career, but his BABIP has plummeted. I don't know that he's going to be able to pull out of that.

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Originally Posted by WildcatFan

I still think we're underestimating the effect the shift has had on his production. His ground ball, line drive, and fly ball rates have all stayed fairly steady throughout his career, but his BABIP has plummeted. I don't know that he's going to be able to pull out of that.

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Supposedly he and Votto have both been working on their bunting this offseason. If he can get it down well enough to make some teams rethink their shift policies, we may see his BABIP increase again. That's probably wishful thinking, but I've been a fan of him trying to bunt down the third baseline the last few years when we've seen more and more dramatic shifts on him.

I hope he's right. He's still in his 20s and can hopefully bounce back, since we're apparently stuck with him. But after what I've seen the past two seasons, I'm not too confident.

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Originally Posted by androosh

Supposedly he and Votto have both been working on their bunting this offseason. If he can get it down well enough to make some teams rethink their shift policies, we may see his BABIP increase again. That's probably wishful thinking, but I've been a fan of him trying to bunt down the third baseline the last few years when we've seen more and more dramatic shifts on him.

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I'd love to see Bruce become a decent bunter, if only because it would open up a hole in a spot where he's more likely to do damage. As an added bonus, it would raise his BA. While I love Ted Williams and consider him among the two or three best hitters ever, he was, simply put, wrong about the shift. A well-placed bunt or three would have, IMO, led to more teams playing him honestly, higher BA, more OBP, and more runs.

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Originally Posted by androosh

Supposedly he and Votto have both been working on their bunting this offseason. If he can get it down well enough to make some teams rethink their shift policies, we may see his BABIP increase again. That's probably wishful thinking, but I've been a fan of him trying to bunt down the third baseline the last few years when we've seen more and more dramatic shifts on him.

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That's what they want them to do. The defense will gladly take a bunt base hit or an opposite field single if it means guys like Bruce aren't hitting with power.

Votto should never ever bunt

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Originally Posted by Chip R

That's what they want them to do. The defense will gladly take a bunt base hit or an opposite field single if it means guys like Bruce aren't hitting with power.

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A base hit is a good thing. Trading the "sure thing" for a chance at more is a fool's errand in baseball.

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Originally Posted by Raisor

Votto should never ever bunt

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If the 3B is playing in the SS hole and the bunt is a nearly free base, yes, he absolutely should.

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Originally Posted by Bourgeois Zee

If the 3B is playing in the SS hole and the bunt is a nearly free base, yes, he absolutely should.

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Not with Votto's spray chart, he shouldn't. He's got more of a chance at an extra-base hit to left field than most of our righty hitters do.

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Originally Posted by Bourgeois Zee

If the 3B is playing in the SS hole and the bunt is a nearly free base, yes, he absolutely should.

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absolutely. all a guy has to do is push a bunt past the pitcher down the 3B line & its a hit.
it seems to me that a guy could have a very very high success rate with lots & lots of practice.
I don't understand why guys like Bruce aren't practicing bunting literally a thousand times a day.

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Originally Posted by Bourgeois Zee

If the 3B is playing in the SS hole and the bunt is a nearly free base, yes, he absolutely should.

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He doesn't need to bunt for free bases.

Chip is right about this one, opposing teams would love for Votto to take those type of hits.

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Originally Posted by WildcatFan

Not with Votto's spray chart, he shouldn't. He's got more of a chance at an extra-base hit to left field than most of our righty hitters do.

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Exactamundo.

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Originally Posted by Raisor

He doesn't need to bunt for free bases.

Chip is right about this one, opposing teams would love for Votto to take those type of hits.

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Is it not the hitter's job to acquire bases?

Should Votto be successful even two out of three times up to the plate, he's performing at a level no one in the history of the game has.

A .667/ .667/ .667 line is pretty remarkably awesome, I would think. That'd be a 1.335 OPS, fwiw.

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Originally Posted by Bourgeois Zee

Is it not the hitter's job to acquire bases?

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Are we really going to get into a debate if Joey Votto should bunt more after a 314/459/541 season?

I really don't see the difference between Votto/Bruce taking a walk or bunting for a hit.

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Originally Posted by MikeS21

I really don't see the difference between Votto/Bruce taking a walk or bunting for a hit.

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I think the difference is, a walk is the result of not swinging at unhittable pitches. If Votto is going to make contact with a pitch, it's in the teams best interest to try and drive the ball instead of laying a bunt down, resulting in a maximum result of 1 base.

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Originally Posted by Raisor

Are we really going to get into a debate if Joey Votto should bunt more after a 314/459/541 season?

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Are you really not going to answer my question?

I get that it's relatively difficult to bunt against major league pitching. Then again, we're not talking a perfect bunt either. It only need to get down and by the pitcher. He could try twice (if teams don't correct after the first), then hack away if you'd like.

Can you point me to a place where the question is at least answered mathematically?

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Originally Posted by Raisor

Are we really going to get into a debate if Joey Votto should bunt more after a 314/459/541 season?

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I dont think they are shifting on Votto as much as Bruce. Could be wrong. Anyway the shift obviously doesn't hurt Votto. He shouldn't bunt unless he really feels it's his best chance to get on base against a tough pitcher. I'll trust Votto's judgement.

Bruce is a totally different argument. The shift kills him. He needs to find s way to beat it. I say bunt away when they give him the 3rd base line. Give up some power maybe but make less outs.

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Originally Posted by MikeS21

I really don't see the difference between Votto/Bruce taking a walk or bunting for a hit.

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No one tears a hammy running out a bunt.

Seriously, the difference between a bunt and a walk is mathematically insignificant. I'll dig up the numbers if I have a chance, but there's a metric ton of common sense at work here -- including the fact that a walk forces the pitcher to throw, at minimum, 4 pitches from his allotted pitch count.

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Originally Posted by Caveat Emperor

No one tears a hammy running out a bunt.

Seriously, the difference between a bunt and a walk is mathematically insignificant. I'll dig up the numbers if I have a chance, but there's a metric ton of common sense at work here -- including the fact that a walk forces the pitcher to throw, at minimum, 4 pitches from his allotted pitch count.

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You can tear a hammy getting out of the bathtub.

Injuries are just chance and unfortunate by-products of a game, despite preparation and work.

By your logic, Votto should lollygag everywhere. You know what he'd be then?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PnIaqAsnSxU

I'm pulling for Bruce here. How could you not?

Hopefully, in regard to his batting problems, this swing adjustment allows him to Shake it Off.

The only reason for Votto to bunt is if you think it'll turn outs into non-outs.

With an OBP of 459 last season I'd say there would be as much of a chance that he would be trading walks and base hits for bunts as it would be turning outs into non-outs.

Dude avoided outs 46% of the time last year, which is almost binary.

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Originally Posted by Raisor

The only reason for Votto to bunt is if you think it'll turn outs into non-outs.

With an OBP of 459 last season I'd say there would be as much of a chance that he would be trading walks and base hits for bunts as it would be turning outs into non-outs.

Dude avoided outs 46% of the time last year, which is almost binary.

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True. That said, there hasn't been any study of how successful he might be as a bunter against the shift. It might well be a phenomenally effective weapon. I certainly wouldn't reject it out of hand because, great hitter. Everyone can improve and improve their odds by doing something different/ better.

How about Bruce, to switch this back to the original off-topic topic? Should he bunt?