Re: Cinci Enquirer: Pick your All-Time Reds team
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Phoenix2
And that's OK. Groh played 8+ years with the Reds. Good years but still rather run of the mill. There IS a reason you never heard of him. He played more years with the Giants post Reds. If he got more years, or a whole career, in with the Reds he may have a stronger case. Both Perez and Rose in 5 and 4 years, respectively, were much better stand out players.
Groh was one of the best players in the NL. If they had been giving out MVP awards when he was playing, he'd have been a perennial contender. Five straight seasons finishing 2nd or 3rd in WAR in the league (all with the Reds). Led the NL in OPS in 1919 (the year the Reds won their first World Series), 2nd in 1918. As WOY mentioned, he played the vast majority of his career with the Reds (don't know where you game up with that Giants line). Supposedly dynamite glove too. If you hadn't heard of him, that's on you.
I get the argument for Perez. Don't agree with it, but I get it. Rose played his best baseball in the OF.
Re: Cinci Enquirer: Pick your All-Time Reds team
People can throw all the stones at me they want (lol) ... but I'd vote for Pinson in CF over Jr. In fact, Jr wouldn't be one of my AS Red's OFers. No offense to Jr, but he spent the bulk of his time, building his career, as an M, and his career in Cincy was pretty injury-marred.
Davis, Pinson, Robinson
Re: Cinci Enquirer: Pick your All-Time Reds team
Quote:
Originally Posted by
GAC
People can throw all the stones at me they want (lol) ... but I'd vote for Pinson in CF over Jr. In fact, Jr wouldn't be one of my AS Red's OFers. No offense to Jr, but he spent the bulk of his time, building his career, as an M, and his career in Cincy was pretty injury-marred.
Davis, Pinson, Robinson
Pinson over Jr. in CF is an easy pick. Jr.'s time in Cincinnati was nothing great. In fact, Cesar Geronimo (13.2 WAR) ranks ahead of Jr. (12.8 WAR), and both played nine seasons with the club.
Re: Cinci Enquirer: Pick your All-Time Reds team
I agree that Vada Pinson is an easy pick over Ken Griffey Jr. in CF. Frank Robinson is an absolute must in rightfield. The rest of the outfield for me depends in part upon whether or not I put Pete Rose in the outfield. If I do, then I may platoon Pinson and Eric Davis in CF. If I don't, then I've been tempted to put George Foster in leftfield, as I have a weakness for guys who hit 52 HRs in one season. However, in reviewing their stats I was somewhat surprised to find that Pinson had a slightly higher five year peak than Foster. Career wise Pinson as a Red put up 47.7 WAR to Foster's 39.5-no surprise. For one season, Foster's 8.4 WAR in 1977 tops any single season by Vada, whose high was 7.5 in 1961-again no surprise. For a five year stretch of seasons, which is what I regard to be more of a consistent peak, Pinson from 1959 through 1963 had 6.5, 5.6, 7.5, 4.7 and 6.4, for 30.7 total WAR, a seasonal average of 6.14. Foster's best five year stretch was 1975 through 1979, 4.8, 5.9, 8.4, 4.9 and 5.1, for 29.1 total WAR, a seasonal average of 5.82-that surprised me.
I checked on the best five year stretch for Pete Rose and Eric Davis.
Davis, who had 30.6 career WAR as a Red, had a five year peak between 1986 and 1990 of 5.3, 7.9, 4.4, 2.9 and 3.3, for total WAR in those seasons of 23.8, a season average of 4.76, well below Pinson and Foster.
Rose had a five year stretch between 1969 and 1973 of 6.6, 4.8, 5.1, 6.1 and 8.3, for total WAR in those five seasons of 30.9, a seasonal average of 6.18, a hair above Vada. If you instead use the five year stretch from 1972 through 1976, the latter two years being seasons where Rose played at third, he had 6.1, 8.3, 5.9, 4.1 and 7.0, a total of 31.4 and an average of 6.28. Part of Rose's greatness as a player wasn't that he had a single season peak as high as many other superstars-it was that he more or less maintained his peak level for a ridiculously long time.
Re: Cinci Enquirer: Pick your All-Time Reds team
Quote:
Originally Posted by
RedsBaron
I agree that Vada Pinson is an easy pick over Ken Griffey Jr. in CF. Frank Robinson is an absolute must in rightfield. The rest of the outfield for me depends in part upon whether or not I put Pete Rose in the outfield. If I do, then I may platoon Pinson and Eric Davis in CF. If I don't, then I've been tempted to put George Foster in leftfield, as I have a weakness for guys who hit 52 HRs in one season. However, in reviewing their stats I was somewhat surprised to find that Pinson had a slightly higher five year peak than Foster. Career wise Pinson as a Red put up 47.7 WAR to Foster's 39.5-no surprise. For one season, Foster's 8.4 WAR in 1977 tops any single season by Vada, whose high was 7.5 in 1961-again no surprise. For a five year stretch of seasons, which is what I regard to be more of a consistent peak, Pinson from 1959 through 1963 had 6.5, 5.6, 7.5, 4.7 and 6.4, for 30.7 total WAR, a seasonal average of 6.14. Foster's best five year stretch was 1975 through 1979, 4.8, 5.9, 8.4, 4.9 and 5.1, for 29.1 total WAR, a seasonal average of 5.82-that surprised me.
I checked on the best five year stretch for Pete Rose and Eric Davis.
Davis, who had 30.6 career WAR as a Red, had a five year peak between 1986 and 1990 of 5.3, 7.9, 4.4, 2.9 and 3.3, for total WAR in those seasons of 23.8, a season average of 4.76, well below Pinson and Foster.
Rose had a five year stretch between 1969 and 1973 of 6.6, 4.8, 5.1, 6.1 and 8.3, for total WAR in those five seasons of 30.9, a seasonal average of 6.18, a hair above Vada. If you instead us the five year stretch from 1972 through 1976, the latter two years being seasons where Rose played at third, he had 6.1, 8.3, 5.9, 4.1 and 7.0, a total of 31.4 and an average of 6.28. Part of Rose's greatness as a player wasn't that he had a single season peak as high as many other superstars-it was that he more less maintained his peak level for a ridiculously long time.
There is no question that Rose needs to be on the team. The only question is whether it's in the OF or at 3B. I agree with M2 that he was better as an OF, but the real question is whether you like one of the other OF more than Perez or Groh. Personally, I think Robinson, Pinson and Roush more deserving than Perez and Groh, so Pete plays 3B though I could be talked into Perez at 3B and Pinson on the bench. I say make Perez the DH and take them both.
Re: Cinci Enquirer: Pick your All-Time Reds team
Just to throw a log on the fire, even though he only played a brief time in Cincinnati and became a national sensation in Chicago and Boston, baseball's first bona fide superstar (King Kelly) did play for the Reds. I get the Reds have no more claim on him than they do Sam Crawford, but the American Association Cincinnati team of 1891 was known as Kelly's Killers.
And Kelly played every position. So, he could be a one-man bench.
Re: Cinci Enquirer: Pick your All-Time Reds team
For the first 8 years of his career, Pinson was about as good as anybody I've seen, except Robinson, in a Reds uniform. He's my CF, though I think an extraordinarily good case can be made for Davis and Roush.
Re: Cinci Enquirer: Pick your All-Time Reds team
Would this exercise be easier and have more agreement if we made a rule that each player had to be a better than average fielder at his position(other than pitcher)?
If so, I could easily put Suarez at 3rd base and move on from there. Perez would probably then be our 1st baseman(not sure how good Klu was at fielding). Robinson, Morgan, Larkin and Bench would be no-brainers. That would leave left and center field to argue about and I would probably insert either Pinson or Davis in Center. Left field would be a tough one. Don't really think Foster was better than average with the glove and arm.
This thread has some crossover with the 27 yanks vs 75 Reds thread so I thought I'd put this statement here. While we can argue the greatest 8 lineups in history and the Big Red Machine is certainly toward the top in that argument, when it comes to fielding and hitting, no team can touch us. Other than Rose at 3rd base, we had no weaknesses with the glove.
Re: Cinci Enquirer: Pick your All-Time Reds team
How about the best Reds team that appeared in 600-2000 PA's?
These guys are in order by their raw OPS number (not vs league) Only 1882-2019
Code:
Outfielder PA
Kevin Mitchell 874
Kal Daniels 1398
Babe Herman 1449
Shin-Soo Choo 712
Mike Donlin 978
Greg Vaughn 643
Bernie Carbo 864
Sam Crawford 1725
Austin Kearns 1835
Mike Cameron 636
Chick Hafey 1836
Hank Sauer 924
3rd base
Willie Greene 1490
Don Hoak 1082
Scott Rolen 1298
Buddy Bell 1599
Bill Werber 1847
Ray Knight 1883
SS
Felipe Lopez 1566
Jose Peraza 939
Jeff Keppinger 778
Alex Gonzalez 700
Buck Herzog 1524
2b
Scooter Gennett 1207
Tony Cuccinello 639
Todd Walker 964
Mariano Duncan 903
D'Angelo Jimenez 1102
Lew Fonseca 955
Bill Doran 933
Connie Ryan 986
George Grantham 867
1b
Rube Bressler 986
Scott Hatteberg 1017
George Crowe 1081
Buck Ewing 765
George Kelly 1523
Hal Chase 1480
Catcher
Smoky Burgess 1241
Don Pavletich 833
David Ross 817
Ramon Hernandez 1011
Javier Valentin 1086
Andy Seminick 1126
Ray Mueller 1899
Devin Mesoraco 1345
Ryan Hanigan 1580
Clyde Sukeforth 1103
Bo Diaz 1695
Re: Cinci Enquirer: Pick your All-Time Reds team
WOY,
Like the idea. Good to see Don Hoak, George Crowe, and Smokey Burgess remembered. Should Jerry Lynch go on the outfield list?
Re: Cinci Enquirer: Pick your All-Time Reds team
Quote:
Originally Posted by
HokieRed
WOY,
Like the idea. Good to see Don Hoak, George Crowe, and Smokey Burgess remembered. Should Jerry Lynch go on the outfield list?
Yes, 1700 pa's or so
Re: Cinci Enquirer: Pick your All-Time Reds team
Billy Werber has to be the 3B on that lower PA team. He showed up, gave the Reds a top tier leadoff hitter, and the Reds won two pennants and a WS title.
Re: Cinci Enquirer: Pick your All-Time Reds team
Quote:
Originally Posted by
M2
Billy Werber has to be the 3B on that lower PA team. He showed up, gave the Reds a top tier leadoff hitter, and the Reds won two pennants and a WS title.
He was on the source list, he should be there yes
Re: Cinci Enquirer: Pick your All-Time Reds team
should rafael santo domingo be there
Re: Cinci Enquirer: Pick your All-Time Reds team
Quote:
Originally Posted by
M2
Groh was one of the best players in the NL. If they had been giving out MVP awards when he was playing, he'd have been a perennial contender. Five straight seasons finishing 2nd or 3rd in WAR in the league (all with the Reds). Led the NL in OPS in 1919 (the year the Reds won their first World Series), 2nd in 1918. As WOY mentioned, he played the vast majority of his career with the Reds (don't know where you game up with that Giants line). Supposedly dynamite glove too. If you hadn't heard of him, that's on you.
I get the argument for Perez. Don't agree with it, but I get it. Rose played his best baseball in the OF.
I'm a big time Heinie Groh guy. He's better than a decent chunk of MLB HOF third baseman. And with the dearth of third baseman in the Hall, one can actually make an argument that Groh belongs in Cooperstown. That case would get further bolstered by his defensive prowess too. Alas, there's no living memory of him so there's never going to be much of a push to get him in Cooperstown.