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Choo and that albatross Rangers contract
I've done nothing but unsparingly rip Walt for months now, so I figured I owed him this thread after checking out how Shin Soo Choo is doing in Texas this season. He's put up a line of .096/.254/.173 for a .427 OPS. Granted, it's only been 63 PA, but he's coming off a .242/.340/.374 season in 2014 in the first year of a contract that pays him big money through 2020. In fact, Choo made 14 million dollars per season in the first two years of this contract, the remaining years will be in excess of $20 million annually.
Walt flipped an asset in Gregorious that we had no long range plans for (who isn't exactly lighting the world on fire in New York), and spun that into a career year out of Choo, and then let Choo walk before he crashed back down to earth with a vengeance. 2013 didn't work out, but that deal in particular was a home run in nearly every way by Mr. Jocketty. Man the Rangers are going to feel the sting of that Choo deal for a while. Thank the lord that was one of the few long term contracts we stayed well away from, despite some segments of the fan base clamoring for a deal to be made.
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Re: Choo and that albatross Rangers contract
I wish Choo well and really liked him on our 2013 team.
Walt played that hand perfectly though.
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Re: Choo and that albatross Rangers contract
Plus, we got Blandino as the compensatory pick for losing Choo. It couldn't have worked out much better.
Blandino might end up being better than Choo and Gregorius combined. (Not Choo in his prime, but overall.)
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Re: Choo and that albatross Rangers contract
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Originally Posted by
Chuckie
Plus, we got Blandino as the compensatory pick for losing Choo. It couldn't have worked out much better.
Blandino might end up being better than Choo and Gregorius combined. (Not Choo in his prime, but overall.)
I was wondering if the Reds got a pick, and if so what they did with it. Thanks for the addition!
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Re: Choo and that albatross Rangers contract
Not sure I'm going to give Walt too much credit for this one.
1. No way the Reds were going to out-bid the Rangers or Yankees for Choo. The Yankees actually offered $10 million more over the life of the contract than the Rangers, but no income tax in Texas more than made up for that. Point is: The Reds were not going to compete with the Rangers' offer, even if they wanted to re-sign Choo.
2. The plan even when the Reds traded for Choo was to have Billy Hamilton (who was coming off a year in which he set the all-time minor league record for steals with 155) be the leadoff hitter/centerfielder beginning in 2014. Re-signing Choo was never really on the table for the Reds.
If you want to give Walt credit for not screwing something up, go ahead. But the reality is the Reds were never going to re-sign Choo and they knew it. He was a one-year rental, period.
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Re: Choo and that albatross Rangers contract
noooooo you've set the alarm for junkhead to post
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Re: Choo and that albatross Rangers contract
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Chuckie
Not sure I'm going to give Walt too much credit for this one.
1. No way the Reds were going to out-bid the Rangers or Yankees for Choo. The Yankees actually offered $10 million more over the life of the contract than the Rangers, but no income tax in Texas more than made up for that. Point is: The Reds were not going to compete with the Rangers' offer, even if they wanted to re-sign Choo.
2. The plan even when the Reds traded for Choo was to have Billy Hamilton (who was coming off a year in which he set the all-time minor league record for steals with 155) be the leadoff hitter/centerfielder beginning in 2014. Re-signing Choo was never really on the table for the Reds.
If you want to give Walt credit for not screwing something up, go ahead. But the reality is the Reds were never going to re-sign Choo and they knew it. He was a one-year rental, period.
Reds got Choo for his career year where he put up an OBP of .423 for not very much and let him go when he immediately got expensive.
That's an awesome one year rental.
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Re: Choo and that albatross Rangers contract
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Originally Posted by
villain612
Reds got Choo for his career year where he put up an OBP of .423 for not very much and let him go when he immediately got expensive.
That's an awesome one year rental.
Damn straight it is. I wasn't saying anything to the contrary. It worked out perfectly for the Reds. They got Choo (on the cheap mind you) who turned in a great year, then "flipped" him (basically) for Blandino ... who is likely the Reds' 2B of the future. The heir apparent to Dat Dude. It was perfect for the Reds.
But let's not pretend like the Reds made some wise choice in not re-signing Choo. They were never going to re-sign Choo. It was never on the table. And even if they wanted to, there is no way they would have been able to out-bid the Rangers for his services. And thank goodness for that. The last thing the Reds needed was another horrible LTC.
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Re: Choo and that albatross Rangers contract
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Originally Posted by
Chuckie
Damn straight it is. I wasn't saying anything to the contrary. It worked out perfectly for the Reds. They got Choo (on the cheap mind you) who turned in a great year, then "flipped" him (basically) for Blandino ... who is likely the Reds' 2B of the future. The heir apparent to Dat Dude. It was perfect for the Reds.
But let's not pretend like the Reds made some wise choice in not re-signing Choo. They were never going to re-sign Choo. It was never on the table. And even if they wanted to, there is no way they would have been able to out-bid the Rangers for his services. And thank goodness for that. The last thing the Reds needed was another horrible LTC.
That's a fair point. Walt knew that New York or Texas or some other big market team would overpay for him.
He still handled the entirety of the deal perfectly though.
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Re: Choo and that albatross Rangers contract
In order to consistently contend, you've got to pull off these non-deals as often if not more often than actual deals.
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Re: Choo and that albatross Rangers contract
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Originally Posted by
villain612
I wish Choo well and really liked him on our 2013 team.
Walt played that hand perfectly though.
Yep. Personally, I would've liked it if he'd snagged Choo a few seasons earlier. He was a big target for me for years. Alas. :(
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Re: Choo and that albatross Rangers contract
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Originally Posted by
Falls City Beer
In order to consistently contend, you've got to pull off these non-deals as often if not more often than actual deals.
Oldest GM motto: The best deals are the ones that are never made.
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Re: Choo and that albatross Rangers contract
I would rather have seen them trade Didi directly to Arizona for Bauer
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Re: Choo and that albatross Rangers contract
With Chuckie on this one. The smart move by Walt was getting to in the first place, as a one-year rental. If he offered Choo a reasonable contract after that year, you can't give him credit, just because someone was dumber and offered Choo.. more
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Re: Choo and that albatross Rangers contract
Walt deserves a lot of credit for the trade that brought Choo. It was one of the few really good moves he has made in his 8 seasons at the helm.
I would not give him too much credit for not re-signing Choo however. It was my understanding that the Reds did aggressively try to re-sign Choo and made him some really big offers, they just got outbid by the Rangers and Yankees. Walt did not decide against re-signing Choo to a huge contract, Choo just decided to go somewhere else.
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Re: Choo and that albatross Rangers contract
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Originally Posted by
757690
Oldest GM motto: The best deals are the ones that are never made.
Other GM Mottoes:
-The worst deals generally come from ownership.
-If the Angels are sniffing around your aging vet, run away. Run quickly.
-No matter how washed up he seems, that guy you let go will hit .300 as a Cardinal.
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Re: Choo and that albatross Rangers contract
Quote:
Originally Posted by
cincrazy
I've done nothing but unsparingly rip Walt for months now, so I figured I owed him this thread after checking out how Shin Soo Choo is doing in Texas this season. He's put up a line of .096/.254/.173 for a .427 OPS. Granted, it's only been 63 PA, but he's coming off a .242/.340/.374 season in 2014 in the first year of a contract that pays him big money through 2020. In fact, Choo made 14 million dollars per season in the first two years of this contract, the remaining years will be in excess of $20 million annually.
Walt flipped an asset in Gregorious that we had no long range plans for (who isn't exactly lighting the world on fire in New York), and spun that into a career year out of Choo, and then let Choo walk before he crashed back down to earth with a vengeance. 2013 didn't work out, but that deal in particular was a home run in nearly every way by Mr. Jocketty. Man the Rangers are going to feel the sting of that Choo deal for a while. Thank the lord that was one of the few long term contracts we stayed well away from, despite some segments of the fan base clamoring for a deal to be made.
Let me ask you a question: what is your intention in making a stupid thread like this?
Here is another one created by you. http://www.redszone.com/forums/showt...hoo-comparison
You really don't know he was injured last year and is coming off of elbow and ankle surgeries? Or pretend not to know?
http://www.faketeams.com/2015/3/2/81...k-year-in-2015
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His 2014 season was plagued by injuries; Choo played the entire season with an elbow injury and most of the season with an ankle injury. Choo hurt his ankle on April 21 stepping on first base awkwardly, and at the time of his ankle injury, he was hitting .314/.432/.500 with a 160 wRC+. After the injury, Choo hit just .229/.322/.351 with an 88 wRC+. Some of that drop was regression, but most of it was because of how badly his ankle limited him. Choo also had a huge drop in stolen bases last season because of that ankle.
Choo said he regretted rushing back from the injury:
"I made a bad decision," Choo said of coming back from his April 21 sprained ankle within 10 days.
When Choo suffered the injury, the Rangers were already dealing with a rash of injuries. Choo agreed to bypass the DL at the time to try and keep some semblance of offense in the lineup. The ankle, however, has not gotten significantly better, and Choo’s performance has gotten significantly worse.
If he had played poorly when healthy, this thread might make sense. But that's not the case, as you can see below.
http://i.imgur.com/oFmIou2.jpg
As long as he's healthy, he will be fine, so don't worry about him and stop making a meaningless thread like this.
For more information, http://www.redszone.com/forums/showt...mer-Reds/page6
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Re: Choo and that albatross Rangers contract
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Originally Posted by
Tom Servo
noooooo you've set the alarm for junkhead to post
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Re: Choo and that albatross Rangers contract
http://espn.go.com/blog/jayson-stark...ng-of-all-time
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The Worst Free-Agent Signings of All Time.
And trust me, that’s a tough list to top. But here is my new, updated, post-Josh-a-palooza top five, with a few honorable mentions thrown in there for your second-guessing consideration:
Quote:
Just missed this list: Jason Schmidt, Barry Zito, Denny Neagle,
Special international incident citation: Kei Igawa.
Disaster in the making: Shin-Soo Choo.
Category unto himself: A-Rod.
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Re: Choo and that albatross Rangers contract
I like Choo and would still love him in a Reds uniform. Choo has a lifetime .381 OBP and had a career year in Cincy the year they had him. The major problem with Choo is he is a complimentary player. You don't build your team around Choo, you add him to a good team. You throw his .381 OBP in the 2 hole and play him out in LF.
Choo at $20M/year outside of his peak years is a recipe for disaster. Choo made the best of his career year and the Rangers paid for it. Now they are on the hook for $20M/year for a nice player as he ages.
I have wondered about the timing of the Choo trade and what could have been. The Reds traded for Choo shortly after they gave Ludwick an extension. Choo was a better fit in LF, had the Reds not signed Ludwick could they have held onto Stubbs? And would that have given them more money to make a run at Choo or someone else as that season went along? That would also have saved about 15M in dead money as Ludwick got hurt, got old, and was ineffective for the last two years in Cincy.
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Re: Choo and that albatross Rangers contract
Quote:
Originally Posted by
fipp
He's back, baby!
Let the fun begin!
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Re: Choo and that albatross Rangers contract
when Walt traded for Choo I think that was the last time I was really excited about any move the Reds made. I have no problems with the Latos & Simon deals & the Iglesias signing was good, but when the Reds got Choo I thought "wow, we could win this thing".
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Re: Choo and that albatross Rangers contract
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Chuckie
Not sure I'm going to give Walt too much credit for this one.
1. No way the Reds were going to out-bid the Rangers or Yankees for Choo. The Yankees actually offered $10 million more over the life of the contract than the Rangers, but no income tax in Texas more than made up for that. Point is: The Reds were not going to compete with the Rangers' offer, even if they wanted to re-sign Choo.
Agreed. Walt didn't "let Choo walk". He walked on his own.
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Re: Choo and that albatross Rangers contract
Wonder if any of Choo's injury struggles come from trying to play center for a year.
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Re: Choo and that albatross Rangers contract
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Originally Posted by
Tom Servo
noooooo you've set the alarm for junkhead to post
Too late. We didn't stop it in time.
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Re: Choo and that albatross Rangers contract
Quote:
Originally Posted by
wheels
He's back, baby!
Let the fun begin!
I hope he wasn't trying to fool us. He did a poor job of doing so.
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Re: Choo and that albatross Rangers contract
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Originally Posted by
Brutus
I hope he wasn't trying to fool us. He did a poor job of doing so.
Yeah. His sentence structure is totally unique. It can't really be masked.
I say let him stick around for a while. He's hilarious.
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Re: Choo and that albatross Rangers contract
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Originally Posted by
Brutus
Too late. We didn't stop it in time.
Hey, Brutus! Long time no see!
BTW, do you remember our debate on" ERA+ vs. ERA-"
http://www.redszone.com/forums/showt...Cueto!!!/page6
Do you still think there's no difference in accuracy between ERA+ and ERA-?
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1 Attachment(s)
Re: Choo and that albatross Rangers contract
Let's go ahead and get the comparison started for the year:
Choo:
Triple-Slash: .096/.254/.173
wRC+: 30
WAR: -0.4
Hamilton:
Triple-Slash: .216/.284/.324
wRC+: 70
WAR: 0.8
Hamilton has been bad, but Choo has been quite a bit worse, which is saying a lot about his season so far. At least Hamilton plays excellent defense and does not cost $13 million this year with a lot more money owed.
Attachment 9017
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Re: Choo and that albatross Rangers contract
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Chuckie
Not sure I'm going to give Walt too much credit for this one.
1. No way the Reds were going to out-bid the Rangers or Yankees for Choo. The Yankees actually offered $10 million more over the life of the contract than the Rangers, but no income tax in Texas more than made up for that. Point is: The Reds were not going to compete with the Rangers' offer, even if they wanted to re-sign Choo.
2. The plan even when the Reds traded for Choo was to have Billy Hamilton (who was coming off a year in which he set the all-time minor league record for steals with 155) be the leadoff hitter/centerfielder beginning in 2014. Re-signing Choo was never really on the table for the Reds.
If you want to give Walt credit for not screwing something up, go ahead. But the reality is the Reds were never going to re-sign Choo and they knew it. He was a one-year rental, period.
If the Reds really wanted to sign Choo, they could have.
It would've just meant no Bailey contract.. and of course some reprucussions for future years of payroll.
Over 1/2 the board wanted the Reds to open the bank for Choo, and it was a reasonable argument.
Choo could've played LF , Billy in CF.. That's what lots of people were proposing. Or Billy could've spent another year in AAA (which might've been better for him)
I do agree with you that the plan was to just rent Choo for one year. Walt pretty much said that the day after the trade was made.
Still, it was smart to have that plan.
Although Cleveland probably did the best in that trade, getting Bauer..
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Re: Choo and that albatross Rangers contract
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Originally Posted by
fipp
:laugh:
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Re: Choo and that albatross Rangers contract
Quote:
Originally Posted by
RedTeamGo!
Let's go ahead and get the comparison started for the year:
Choo:
Triple-Slash: .096/.254/.173
wRC+: 30
WAR: -0.4
Hamilton:
Triple-Slash: .216/.284/.324
wRC+: 70
WAR: 0.8
Hamilton has been bad, but Choo has been quite a bit worse, which is saying a lot about his season so far. At least Hamilton plays excellent defense and does not cost $13 million this year with a lot more money owed.
Attachment 9017
I've said this before, and I'll say it again.
Hamilton is not a starting-caliber player, let alone a leadoff hitter.
He doesn’t hit for average, doesn’t get on base and doesn’t hit for power.
I still firmly believe that he will be best used as a backup outfielder (a pinch-runner and defensive replacement in the late innings).
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Re: Choo and that albatross Rangers contract
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Originally Posted by
wheels
:laugh:
How old are you? Do you want to be humiliated?
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Re: Choo and that albatross Rangers contract
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Originally Posted by
fipp
How old are you? Do you want to be humiliated?
lmao
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Re: Choo and that albatross Rangers contract
Quote:
Originally Posted by
fipp
How old are you? Do you want to be humiliated?
I used to use that as a pickup line.
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Re: Choo and that albatross Rangers contract
Quote:
Originally Posted by
fipp
How old are you? Do you want to be humiliated?
I am timeless.
And yes. Humiliation can be kinda fun sometimes, but you gotta use a safe word.
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Re: Choo and that albatross Rangers contract
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Originally Posted by
fipp
How old are you? Do you want to be humiliated?
Ohhh Internet take down.... sooooo frightening in its reality
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Re: Choo and that albatross Rangers contract
Quote:
Originally Posted by
fipp
How old are you? Do you want to be humiliated?
That's hot
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Re: Choo and that albatross Rangers contract
Quote:
Originally Posted by
fipp
I've said this before, and I'll say it again.
Hamilton is not a starting-caliber player, let alone a leadoff hitter.
He doesn’t hit for average, doesn’t get on base and doesn’t hit for power.
I still firmly believe that he will be best used as a backup outfielder (a pinch-runner and defensive replacement in the late innings).
That is the point, Choo has been quite a bit worse than Hamilton, who will likely be best used as a pinch-runner/defensive replacement.
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Re: Choo and that albatross Rangers contract
Quote:
Originally Posted by
fipp
How old are you? Do you want to be humiliated?
http://gifrific.com/wp-content/uploa...e-IT-Crowd.gif