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I think most people thought they were stepping up and going to have money for Cueto, Latos, a bullpen...a bench. I think we trusted Walt knew not to spend all of the money on Bailey. Obviously we were wrong. If Walt had stated that they had maxed out their credit card to sign Bailey and wouldn't have the money to sign Cueto/Latos/Leake and wouldn't have the money to add talent to the bullpen if needed you would have seen a different reaction.Quote:
Originally Posted by kbrake
Oh this again. Joy.Quote:
Originally Posted by jojo
Anybody who thought Cueto, Latos, and Leake were all going to get paid after Homer's contract was announced was kidding themselves. And Homer's contract didn't max out anything.Quote:
Originally Posted by paulrichjr
Flipping one of Bailey/Latos and resigning the other was the right move, letting Leake walk if he expects $13 million plus a season would be the right move, and not signing Johnny Cueto to a $200 million jumbo contract would also be the right move.
You can think it's "absolute nonsense" ... that's fine. As I said, it's just my opinion, but I would bet big that Homer doesn't get that contract without the two no-nos. We'll never know for sure, so safe to say we can agree to disagree on this one. I'm not going to change my mind and you aren't going to change yours. All good.Quote:
Originally Posted by kbrake
Oh, and one more thing: You said in your second-to-last sentence that the Reds have done similar "deals" (plural). Other than Cueto, what deals are you referring to?
That's just one example Tom. Overall as an organization, they do a great job of team-friendly contracts. You'll notice they have exactly zero long-term contracts that will cripple them going forward. They do an excellent job of studying sabermetrics and they have a knack for finding quality starting pitching on the cheap (relatively speaking). Meanwhile, the Reds fill out their rotation by signing washed-up non-roster invitees like Jason Marquis. Largely because they have so much money tied up in certain players and don't have the financial flexibility to find bargains on the open market. And by "bargains" I mean legit MLB players; not washed-up scrubs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Servo
Yes, the gift of truth is a joyous giving.Quote:
Originally Posted by Larkin88
I didn't mean to come across as a jerk with the absolute nonsense thing I've just seen so many people try to make that claim and it makes absolute no sense to me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chuckie
As for the other deals I liked the Bruce and Mesoraco contracts. I feel like Walt has done pretty well on the bigger stuff. Like the trades he has made and the contracts he has given outside of the Brandon Phillips extension. My issue with this front office is how they spend money and give away multi year deals to the smaller pieces on the roster. Why every journeyman bench piece has to have a two year deal I'll never understand.
:laugh:Quote:
Originally Posted by jojo
Bet Latos is getting jazzed for that 6 yr/$96M deal right about now.
What a silly thing to argue.Quote:
Originally Posted by Larkin88
All in good fun jojo. Trying to keep things cordial.Quote:
Originally Posted by jojo
I remember that thread and the Cameron piece well. Love reading most of what he puts together.
I bet McCutchen doesn't give a discount on his soon-to-be monster next contract.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chuckie
Yea, I agree with this.Quote:
Originally Posted by _Sir_Charles_
It's a bummer Homer got hurt. But it's just part of doing business.
Kind of like the Marshall deal.
At the time, it seemed like a good idea.
Happens to other teams too.
The Cards gave Jaime Garcia a 4 year contract, with 2 team option years (both have buyouts)
Not as much $ as Homer, but they took a risk and got burned too.
This is not to bash the Cards, I'm just saying that just about every club that is trying to win has a contract like this blow up in their face.
If you don't ever take a risk like signing Homer, eventually the talent base shrinks to the point where it takes many years to recover.
And I will say a lot of Walt's extensions have worked out well: the first Cueto extension, all the Arroyo extensions, and even Votto has worked out relatively well.
But if the Reds took that stance, Arroyo would not have been extended twice (and many on RZ didn't think Arroyo should've been signed)Quote:
Originally Posted by 757690
In 2011, Cueto was given a 5 year deal which was pretty decent coin at the time. Now Cueto was not over 30.. that is a good point.
I mean, if the Reds are conservative, even if just about Arroyo, it could've potentially cost them a playoff appearance or two, just by not having Arroyo. Now maybe Arroyo doesn't qualify as big money, but I guess the point is that sometimes longterm deals do work out.
I didn't mean all three of them. In fact earlier in the quote I just named two (I do see how you thought that though). I still say everyone would have been ticked if we had known that there would be very little money for a bullpen, a bench, and at least one but probably two of the three I mentioned.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Servo
The Arroyo extension did not work out well. Arroyo was drastically overpaid for his mediocre production. That money could have been better spent on a better player. At least he didn't get hurt until he joined the Diamondbacks.Quote:
Originally Posted by REDREAD
I would also classify the Rolen, Phillips, Marshall, Broxton, Bailey and Hannahan extensions as bad decisions. The jury is still out on the Votto mega-extension.
People forget the huge amount of money the Reds gave Rolen for his injury-riddled seasons of below-average production. I guess he gets a pass because he arrived at the same time Votto, Cueto, Bruce, Frazier and Bailey replaced Dunn, Griffey and Milton.
Having Arroyo eating 200 innings a year is heck of a lot better than a replacement, say a Marquis. Arroyo never had a top arm, but some nights he had top stuff and junk. Having a guy like that to fill out a rotation ain't all bad. Another case also where Walt walked away at the right time.
By my count Arroyo made just around $70 million total with the Reds for 8 years (with 265 games started and 1,690 innings thrown) and 21.5 total WAR. Seems pretty reasonable.Quote:
Originally Posted by AtomicDumpling
Just an update, I am currently writing a song that channels 80s synth pop + The Cure titled "I Want to Be Humiliated (How Old Am I?)"
Bronson Arroyo was great for this team. This current staff could totally use a guy like that. Despite all of the impending doom posts from many over the years, he only had one bad year, and that was due to a bad back and mono.Quote:
Originally Posted by AtomicDumpling
Arroyo will go down in history as completely forgettable.Quote:
Originally Posted by cincrazy
Kind of like the last 12 years of the Seattle Mariners existence, eh? :)Quote:
Originally Posted by jojo
You mean the Seattle Felix's?Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Servo
Quote:
Originally Posted by fipp
He was very good in Cincinnati. He'll end up in the Reds HOF and won't be forgotten in Cincinnati.Quote:
Originally Posted by jojo
Sounds like the title of a Smiths/ Morrissey song.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wonderful Monds
Yep.Quote:
Originally Posted by kbrake
Had a 105 ERA+ in his 8 years here, which would have been better save for his awful 2011 and his propensity to give up 10 runs in 2 innings once or twice every year.
He had far more good starts than bad during his time as a Red.
Yep, he will also show up and give great interviews all over the place and smile and shake hands with people who will remember his high kick, arm slots, cheesy guitar and flowing hair.Quote:
Originally Posted by kbrake
Not the speed of his fastball or his ERA+
and this.Quote:
Originally Posted by westofyou
We'll remember him anchoring the 2016 rotation.Quote:
Originally Posted by jojo
I really don't understand those incapable of appreciating what Arroyo was. He's one of my favorite Reds of all time, and was one of the first arms in damn near decades that this organization could count on to go out there every 5 days and throw a quality start. No he was never an ace, but I think to a large extent he played a huge role on that starting staff (as Mat Latos himself discussed in an interview earlier this year), and is one of the most popular guys from the Dusty Baker era Reds. Quite honestly he's one of the Reds I'll remember the fondest.
Sure Cincinnati will remember a guy who started for the Reds for so long. But his career with them isnt associated with anything memorable, as player he was average to back end of the rotation for his tenure, was more a testament (or really a bellwether for the quality of the reds defense) to his defense than anything, and nationally, he's got a cool bobblehead for the small group of fans who are into that. Locally, a fan favorite. nationally a bobble head. History won't much remember that.Quote:
Originally Posted by kbrake
And? History, in the sense you're talking about, doesn't remember 95% of players. Why does that warrant a comment?Quote:
Originally Posted by jojo
Why doesn't it warrant a comment? The discussion is about the magnitude of his greatness. He wasn't even great for the Reds as a player. He was around a long time as a Red at a position where the organization lacks poster boys. He was a fan favorite.Quote:
Originally Posted by kpresidente
I think Arroyo will be remembered nationally for awhile for the play in the ALCS where he ran to first on a come backer and scumbag A-rod slapped the ball out of his glove.
Arroyo was certainly a BOR starter, there were times where I complained about him, but now that he is gone I miss him on the Reds.
beef hoaagggiiiieeee!Quote:
Originally Posted by tom servo
http://www.cbssports.com/mlb/writer/...ees-more-notes
Quote:
Texas is very worried about Shin-Soo Choo, who is been absolutely abysmal this month (.096). Team higher-ups have had extensive talks about his unfathomable slump, and there seems to be a belief in his talent but also a belief that the $130-million free-agent contract is weighing on him. There also may be a confidence issue. If Texas grows impatient, well, the Yankees still like him (they actually bid about the same, $140 million but with state tax), and they may still – though a deal would be highly unlikely as a good chunk of that contract would have to be offset …
If his confidence is the problem, I'm not sure going to New York is the answer.Quote:
Originally Posted by westofyou
Unless he wants to be humiliatedQuote:
Originally Posted by Tom Servo
Quote:
Texas is very worried about Shin-Soo Choo, who is been absolutely abysmal this month (.096). Team higher-ups have had extensive talks about his unfathomable slump, and there seems to be a belief in his talent but also a belief that the $130-million free-agent contract is weighing on him. There also may be a confidence issue. If Texas grows impatient, well, the Yankees still like him (they actually bid about the same, $140 million but with state tax), and they may still – though a deal would be highly unlikely as a good chunk of that contract would have to be offset …
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gUhRKVIjJtw
Ma$e reference.... /thread