On the declining quality of the ORG

[dubc47834]

Right -- because asking people to back up their claims is tantamount to censorship. I guess we just have different ideas about what this forum should be about. Then again, the sarcasm is so thick in what you wrote that I am not sure whether there is an actual argument there or just a personal attack posing as cynicism. If you have something concrete to add to the conversation, please do so. So far, I am not seeing it.

That's the problem, it's not about what you think this forum should be, it's about what Boss and the other creators think it should be. As long as Im not trying to convince you Im right and as long as I have some reason for my opinion, why do I need to have what you consider hard evidence? Let the moderators decide what is a good/bad post!

[RedEye]

That's the problem, it's not about what you think this forum should be, it's about what Boss and the other creators think it should be. As long as Im not trying to convince you Im right and as long as I have some reason for my opinion, why do I need to have what you consider hard evidence? Let the moderators decide what is a good/bad post!

Of course I agree with you that it is not just a board for one person and that the mods and founders have the final say. (FWIW, the post you quoted was my response to a sarcasm-laden contribution to this thread which was more just making fun of this conversation than it was adding any insights.)

To me, there has been a clear decrease in the overall quality of posts in the ORG since the recent merger. One of the main causes of this, IMO, has been a lack of attention to evidence and argument. Rather than to hijack individual threads, I decided to voice my concern in this forum set up for "Info & Feedback." Judging by the ongoing conversation here, my guess is many other posters share my concern about how recent changes are compromising the board's mission.

[RedEye]

You can't stop at "he got better," you have to look for more red flags.

What age did this improvement happen?
Where was the improvement?
What are the historical comps to this type of improvement?
Where there any abnormal physical changes in the player?
What was the environment in which he played?
And many more.

Again, none of these questions prove anything, no conclusions can be drawn, but they are question an inquiring person should ask.

These are questions that an inquiring person could ask, yes... but none are warranted by any clear evidence or get us any closer to a clear answer. in the meantime, they rile up antagonism toward players who should really be granted the benefit If the doubt. Hence the witch hunt analogies.

As I have said many times now, I am not against all PED discussion or coverage of scandals about PED usage that are already circulating in reputable outlets. I am against posters on message boards trying to turn themselves into PED sleuths.

[Red in Chicago]

These are questions that an inquiring person could ask, yes... but none are warranted by any clear evidence or get us any closer to a clear answer. in the meantime, they rile up antagonism toward players who should really be granted the benefit If the doubt. Hence the witch hunt analogies.

As I have said many times now, I am not against all PED discussion or coverage of scandals about PED usage that are already circulating in reputable outlets. I am against posters on message boards trying to turn themselves into PED sleuths.

so how many more times do you really need to say it?

[New York Red]

To me, there has been a clear decrease in the overall quality of posts in the ORG since the recent merger. One of the main causes of this, IMO, has been a lack of attention to evidence and argument. Rather than to hijack individual threads, I decided to voice my concern in this forum set up for "Info & Feedback." Judging by the ongoing conversation here, my guess is many other posters share my concern about how recent changes are compromising the board's mission.

You can pretend any of that is true, but you're forgetting that most of us were reading ORG long before we were allowed to post there. It hasn't changed a bit. I was also an RZ member back around 2004-2005 or so, before there were separate boards. I left because of all the arguing and insults. I had one poster litter my private message box on a daily basis, spewing one vulgar message after another -- even talking perverted garbage about my kids. Only because I disagreed with his opinion that Adam Dunn was a future HOFer. I complained to mods about it -- the only time I've done that in 20 years of message board posting -- and was told "it's a private matter". So, IMO, it isn't nearly as bad as it was back then.

The only difference I see on ORG since the merger is people like you who think your opinion matters more or that you're somehow better than newer members. Most of the arguing and condescending stuff is by a few of the original ORG posters who feel the need to argue page after page with the same old argument, because they feel they have to win every thread. Again, you are possibly the most guilty of all, so I'm not surprised it's you who's keeping this thread alive too. Sorry for being harsh, but if you're going to continue to talk down about a group of people, we should have the right to speak our minds as well.

[New York Red]

so how many more times do you really need to say it?

Amen!

[RedEye]

so how many more times do you really need to say it?

Until people stop misconstruing what I am saying.

[dubc47834]

These are questions that an inquiring person could ask, yes... but none are warranted by any clear evidence or get us any closer to a clear answer. in the meantime, they rile up antagonism toward players who should really be granted the benefit If the doubt. Hence the witch hunt analogies.

As I have said many times now, I am not against all PED discussion or coverage of scandals about PED usage that are already circulating in reputable outlets. I am against posters on message boards trying to turn themselves into PED sleuths.

What is wrong with asking if a players performance growth is due to PED's? The players have put themselves in this situation by 2 ways as I see it. One, by as many of them that have done PED's, and two, by the clean players refusing to punish the dirty players. The clean players could police themselves by forcing the players union into more decisive action and tougher penalties. Until this happens fans are going to question players and their possible PED use. So I think it is crazy for a self righteous poster on ANY board to tell someone else they can't suspect a player of PED usage. I would say tho, tat the questioning does need to be responsible.

[RedEye]

The only difference I see on ORG since the merger is people like you who think your opinion matters more or that you're somehow better than newer members. Most of the arguing and condescending stuff is by a few of the original ORG posters who feel the need to argue page after page with the same old argument, because they feel they have to win every thread. Again, you are possibly the most guilty of all, so I'm not surprised it's you who's keeping this thread alive too. Sorry for being harsh, but if you're going to continue to talk down about a group of people, we should have the right to speak our minds as well.

I'm sorry you feel this way, NYR. I certainly do repeat myself sometimes, so there I am guilty as charged -- though I usually do so only if I feel someone has missed my point, which is often.

As far as condescension is concerned, I will try to do better as one always needs keep the reader in mind when writing. I do think sometimes, though, that people misread my requests for clarification as talking down to them. To me, asking for more evidence or challenging a point is not condescension -- it is just how one conducts a conversation. Everyone is entitled to an opinion, but not to their own facts.

[jojo]

What is wrong with asking if a players performance growth is due to PED's? The players have put themselves in this situation by 2 ways as I see it. One, by as many of them that have done PED's, and two, by the clean players refusing to punish the dirty players. The clean players could police themselves by forcing the players union into more decisive action and tougher penalties. Until this happens fans are going to question players and their possible PED use. So I think it is crazy for a self righteous poster on ANY board to tell someone else they can't suspect a player of PED usage. I would say tho, tat the questioning does need to be responsible.

Suppose away but dont get self righteous when others challenge your opinion and depending upon the argument, point out that there isn't a valid reason for it.

[dubc47834]

Suppose away but dont get self righteous when others challenge your opinion and depending upon the argument, point out that there isn't a valid reason for it.

You'll never have that issue outa me in regards to PED's. I'm not into making those accusations. Plus the self righteous thing is not me, I don't take myself too serious. I think that some on here do tho!

[dougdirt]

What is wrong with asking if a players performance growth is due to PED's? The players have put themselves in this situation by 2 ways as I see it. One, by as many of them that have done PED's, and two, by the clean players refusing to punish the dirty players. The clean players could police themselves by forcing the players union into more decisive action and tougher penalties. Until this happens fans are going to question players and their possible PED use. So I think it is crazy for a self righteous poster on ANY board to tell someone else they can't suspect a player of PED usage. I would say tho, tat the questioning does need to be responsible.

There are a whole lot of players right now who had zero to do with the current CBA (even if they were in the league, if they were under 30 they probably weren't being listened to by their player rep anyways) which is what sets the rules. You also have no idea that many of them have done PEDs. You assume many of them have.

[dubc47834]

There are a whole lot of players right now who had zero to do with the current CBA (even if they were in the league, if they were under 30 they probably weren't being listened to by their player rep anyways) which is what sets the rules. You also have no idea that many of them have done PEDs. You assume many of them have.

You're right, I have no real idea of how many used, but some in the game would say there are many using PED's. This thread is not the place to discuss PED's.

[dougdirt]

You're right, I have no real idea of how many used, but some in the game would say there are many using PED's. This thread is not the place to discuss PED's.

This thread is absolutely the place to discuss it given that some would say it is one of the complaints about the quality, or lack of, in the ORG.

[Red Buckeye]

I have been reading the ORG for a couple years now and I can honestly say that the quality of the ORG has gotten much much better since the merger.

It's nice getting new opinions as the old ORG was basically the same people spewing their opinions over and over and over.

So the idea that the quality of the ORG has gone down is probably just an opinion shared largely by the people who had been on the ORG for a while.

But since more people are allowed to post it's actually gotten much better.