This thread was going so well too.
This thread was going so well too.
Originally Posted by fipp
Bronson Arroyo = Tom Browning. Solid middle of the rotation guy who was very dependable. I don't know if that's dogmatic or not. But I know what it was. Very similar to Mike Leake. Who I, would for one, resign in a heartbeat.
No it's not IMO. Unless this isn't a place to discuss things.
"This isn’t stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner
You're wrong.
In 265 career starts with the Reds, Arroyo went 7 innings or more and allowed 3 earned or less in 106 of them. That's 40%.
The overall MLB average for its definition of a quality start (6 IP or more, 3 earned or less) during the time that Arroyo pitched for the Reds was somewhere around 47-48%. If you go by the MLB definition of a quality start, Arroyo had 163 of them in his 265 Reds starts. That's 62%. (Rounded)
To say that Arroyo "didn't provide much production" is absurd. He had far more good starts than bad, took every turn he was called on to make, and overall was a good, not a great pitcher for the Reds.
All things considered, above average for a pretty long period of time.
It's not very metricy, but Arroyo gave the Reds a chance to win most times he took the ball. He is basically the first move in my mind that helped to get the Reds out of the lost decade. His performance or memory on the Reds won't be forgotten by fans of my generation. Imo the dude deserves a plaque in the Reds HOF.
Ya it is. It's just another BAPIP, team independent stats debate thinly veiled through Bronson Arroyo.
Its an argument where those on either side of the fence tend not to change their mind, and will be even more difficult to sway when the crux at the argument is stemmed at one of the more decent tenured Reds pitchers of the last 25+ years.
I'm just not sure what quality discussion you expect to stem from that.
He definitely did. I don't think anyone will argue that Arroyo was a great pitcher. He wasn't. But he absolutely was a good pitcher. Above the league averages in ERA, WHIP, innings pitched, and quality starts.
He's a shoe-in for the Reds HOF because of his popularity, but he has a strong case based on his performance as well.
Actually, I'm right.
"This isn’t stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner
Well thought out and researched.
Good work.
You're like three years late to the party so really, you're position is showing an utter lack of time spent in the archives. So, really it could use more thought and alot more research.
"This isn’t stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner
Right. Super high quality discussion there. Proved me wrong.
Arroyo for me will forever be linked to the end of the lost decade. He arrived, and the team went from the worst pitching in the league, to around average. The team went from too many outfielders/sluggers and not enough pitching and defense, to an actual, respectable, somewhat well balanced team.
It obviously wasn't all because of Arroyo, but the trade of Wily Mo for him marks in my mind when the team started to turn into a team I enjoyed watching again.
Hoping to change my username to 75769024
The thread was about Choo, Jocketty and bad contracts from the very first post. Go back and read it. Honestly, it is like facts don't mean anything to you. You hijacked it into a Bronson Arroyo thread.
My comment about Arroyo being "drastically overpaid for his mediocre production" was very clearly directed at the 3-year contract extension, not his entire career as you misconstrued it. The facts show that Bronson Arroyo did not return value equal to the money he was paid with that final three year contract. It is indisputable. His good years prior to 2011 are irrelevant to that discussion. Arroyo was quite valuable as a league-average innings-eater before that, but after that he was clearly overpaid.
Again, the contract extensions and free agent contracts for pitchers around baseball over the last 20 years have overwhelmingly turned out poorly for the teams who signed them. The Arroyo and Bailey extensions were examples from recent Reds history. Just because a pitcher was healthy before the new contract does not justify signing him. Almost every pitcher is going to get hurt eventually, and history shows us very clearly that free agent pitchers who sign long contracts either get hurt or underperform their salary approximately 90% of the time. So if you advocate signing a pitcher to a big money, long-term contract you are making a reeeeeaaaaaaalllly stupid decision. The facts of history are very clear on this issue.
lol
Some charleton has ripped off a Ziggy and passed it off as his own! And I can prove it!
Quick Elaine...to my archives.
In other words, you've got nothing and aren't able to do the thing you wrongly accused me of not doing.... uh huh. A simple search is all you'd have to perform. How about a little thought and some research? It seems to be the thing youre craving...why not actually do it then?
"This isn’t stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner
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