Ken Rosenthal article on the Reds transition

[Tom Servo]

http://www.foxsports.com/mlb/story/i...-season-070616

Nothing earth shattering, but some good tidbits (Price probably surviving the season, teams interested in Bruce, trying to get Peraza playing time around BP's corpse, etc), like:

While the removal of Riggins was easily justified — the Reds entered Wednesday last in the majors in ERA by nearly a half-run per nine innings, and last in bullpen ERA by nearly a full run — it was more a reflection of owner Bob Castellini’s frustration than Jocketty’s desire to assign blame, according to major-league sources.

Deposed owner Castellini still rules from beyond the grave!

“We’re fielding calls from clubs, but I don’t think it’s that active right now,” Jocketty said. “We’re still in that transitioning, rebuilding mode. Anything we can do to improve the club, we’ll pursue. We’ve had a few clubs inquire, but nothing on the front burner, for sure.”

The front burner is a thing, apparently!

Also Walt looks really old. Like, I'm not being mean. We know he always looked old. But now he looks REALLY old.

[Wonderful Monds]

On a serious note, damn I'm slightly concerned about Walt's health now.

On a less serious note, lol @ the front burner finally ever being acknowledged.

[JaxRed]

Them saying Price will not be fired means absolutely nothing. It's not like they'll say "We've thought about it, but we'll give it another month or so and see if there's any improvement".

[Wonderful Monds]

Them saying Price will not be fired means absolutely nothing. It's not like they'll say "We've thought about it, but we'll give it another month or so and see if there's any improvement".

Yeah that definitely sounded like a punt answer, coupled with the notion that they aren't thinking about trades (sure thing lol) and haven't considered moving Brandon Phillips (sure thing lmao)

[nmculbreth]

As a Reds fan, comments like that regarding Castellini concern me because it calls into question his ability to go through with a full scale rebuilding project. If it was one thing perhaps you could shrug it off but the general impatience coupled with the Reds insistance upon targeting proximity to the majors over upside during the sell off makes you wonder if this ownership group is capable of doing what needs to be done to get this club back to contention.

[Kc61]

As a Reds fan, comments like that regarding Castellini concern me because it calls into question his ability to go through with a full scale rebuilding project. If it was one thing perhaps you could shrug it off but the general impatience coupled with the Reds insistance upon targeting proximity to the majors over upside during the sell off makes you wonder if this ownership group is capable of doing what needs to be done to get this club back to contention.

This is a worthwhile topic for discussion. But the question IMO isn't ownership's patience or capability. The issue is the nature of their business in a smaller market.

I'm guessing of course, but I don't think this ownership believes that the business can withstand a full blown, multi-year rebuild. Multiple years of bad attendance and fan disinterest is probably a real concern.

I think this concern has led to some delays and compromises in rebuilding so far. I can accept some compromise because one has to be a pragmatist. The hope is that they don't say we can't do this, and abandon the plan prematurely. That would be a mistake IMO.

[OhioRiverBarge]

I think Walt calling it a rebuild instead of a retool shows signs of progress.

[Wonderful Monds]

This is a worthwhile topic for discussion. But the question IMO isn't ownership's patience or capability. The issue is the nature of their business in a smaller market.

I'm guessing of course, but I don't think this ownership believes that the business can withstand a full blown, multi-year rebuild. Multiple years of bad attendance and fan disinterest is probably a real concern.

I think this concern has led to some delays and compromises in rebuilding so far. I can accept some compromise because one has to be a pragmatist. The hope is that they don't say we can't do this, and abandon the plan prematurely. That would be a mistake IMO.

Retooling is fine, if they're willing to spend the money to do so, which means adding quality free agents, or taking on productive but overpaid players from other teams via trade, but Bob doesn't seem to like spending money on anyone but the "homegrown" (read: marketable) guys.

Hell if Votto hadn't won the MVP in 2010 I doubt he would've been extended to be honest. Ditto for Bailey and his second no-hitter.

[Kc61]

Retooling is fine, if they're willing to spend the money to do so, which means adding quality free agents, or taking on productive but overpaid players from other teams via trade, but Bob doesn't seem to like spending money on anyone but the "homegrown" (read: marketable) guys.

Hell if Votto hadn't won the MVP in 2010 I doubt he would've been extended to be honest. Ditto for Bailey and his second no-hitter.

I think it's too late for that. Would cost a fortune to "retool" now, given the prices of free agents. Plus "overpaid" players in trades as you suggest. Forget it, out of the price range.

If the Reds wanted to retool, they shouldn't have traded most of their vets for kids. They should have pursued some solid vets instead.

They could add a few veterans now in a half-way approach, which generally fail.

To build a real winner, they need to follow through with this rebuild IMO. Youth all the way, including trades along the lines of the Latos acquisition which added an excellent young vet.

[mth123]

I think if you add veterans, you just do it to trade them for more kids when some one is ready to take their spot. This year it would have made sense to add a quality starting pitcher and then deal him around now as Reed, Bailey and Stephenson arrive. Team is short on trade chips and haven't gotten the highest return in the last couple of deals. If those trade chips end up making the team more watchable, that's good too.

[WrongVerb]

I think if you add veterans, you just do it to trade them for more kids when some one is ready to take their spot. This year it would have made sense to add a quality starting pitcher and then deal him around now as Reed, Bailey and Stephenson arrive. Team is short on trade chips and haven't gotten the highest return in the last couple of deals. If those trade chips end up making the team more watchable, that's good too.

A la the Braves and Bud Norris.

[Wonderful Monds]

I think if you add veterans, you just do it to trade them for more kids when some one is ready to take their spot. This year it would have made sense to add a quality starting pitcher and then deal him around now as Reed, Bailey and Stephenson arrive. Team is short on trade chips and haven't gotten the highest return in the last couple of deals. If those trade chips end up making the team more watchable, that's good too.

A la the Braves and Bud Norris.

Bingo.

[Wonderful Monds]

I think it's too late for that. Would cost a fortune to "retool" now, given the prices of free agents. Plus "overpaid" players in trades as you suggest. Forget it, out of the price range.

If the Reds wanted to retool, they shouldn't have traded most of their vets for kids. They should have pursued some solid vets instead.

They could add a few veterans now in a half-way approach, which generally fail.

To build a real winner, they need to follow through with this rebuild IMO. Youth all the way, including trades along the lines of the Latos acquisition which added an excellent young vet.

You could say this about 2009 going into 2010 though.

Is there a 2016 version of Scott Rolen available out there somewhere? If so, that's a good kind of target to go after. They have a decent amount of B-prospects now - the kind of players that are often useful for acquiring good veterans.

I think people look at this team this year and see how awful they've been and assume that's going to spill over into next year. But that doesn't have to be the case - at all really. The rotation and bullpen will sort themselves out by OD next year, for the most part.

There may be some holes in the lineup, but even they aren't as plentiful as many seem to want to believe. Mes will be back in some capacity. Winker will be up to replace Jay. Players like Suarez and Peraza will have developed more.

If they can package some B-prospects together, they should have no problem filling any holes that may pop up.

[Kc61]

You could say this about 2009 going into 2010 though.

Is there a 2016 version of Scott Rolen available out there somewhere? If so, that's a good kind of target to go after. They have a decent amount of B-prospects now - the kind of players that are often useful for acquiring good veterans.

I think people look at this team this year and see how awful they've been and assume that's going to spill over into next year. But that doesn't have to be the case - at all really. The rotation and bullpen will sort themselves out by OD next year, for the most part.

There may be some holes in the lineup, but even they aren't as plentiful as many seem to want to believe. Mes will be back in some capacity. Winker will be up to replace Jay. Players like Suarez and Peraza will have developed more.

If they can package some B-prospects together, they should have no problem filling any holes that may pop up.

This is wildly optimistic for 2017 IMO.

[Wonderful Monds]

This is wildly optimistic for 2017 IMO.

Again though - can you not say the same for 09-10?

Who exactly were mainstays in the Reds lineup in the 09 offseason?

C Hernandez/Hanigan
1B Votto (after missing half a season with his personal issues)
2B Phillips
3B Rolen
SS Janish
LF Gomes maybe?
CF Stubbs
RF Bruce, coming off a wrist injury.

The rotation was something like...

Crappy by then Harang/Arroyo/PED suspended Volquez/Bailey/Cueto (who was definitely not the pitcher he is today at that point)

Cordero the sole pitcher of note in pen.

So they went out and got some useful pieces. Nix was a good platoon partner in LF. They brought in Gomes while they were bad, who gave them a handful of useful seasons. They acquired a handful of veteran relievers to shore up the pen (and got a huge scoreless inning streak out of Rhodes.) Brought in Cabrera to be a useful veteran at short. Traded Freel for Hernandez.

If you set your standards low, that's the kind of results you're going to get.

You can't ever guarantee yourself a winning season - and any time you try to put together a winning team and fail, it looks bad. But you have to start somewhere.

By the end of this season, arbitration clocks will have started for parts of two seasons for players this team needs to capitalize on if they plan on ever winning anything again before I turn 40. Iglesias, Lorenzen, Disco, Suarez all have a decent amount of service time in already.

If anything, that tells me it's time to stop sitting on hands and make a splash.