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Thread: RP Ben Lively

  1. #31
    Viva la Rolen kaldaniels's Avatar
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    Re: RP Ben Lively

    Quote Originally Posted by 757690 View Post
    My problem with trading Lively for Byrd was that Byrd was a convicted PED user, who failed a test after his time with the Reds, which means that he likely was cheating when a Red.

    But one thing to consider is that the Reds were able to trade Byrd to the Giants for Stephen Johnson, who was a decent prospect when he was acquired. I'm guessing he and Lively were similarly ranked at that time, though someone smarter than me can clarify this. The fact that Johnson never made it to the majors and Lively did, does make it hurt a bit, but neither were ever considered anything beyond a fringe prospect.

    That said, it sure would be great to have Lively starting for the Reds right now.
    Fair stance and I agree on most. The dissent would be that I just throw my hands up when it comes to PEDs. Who knows and who cares unless you get busted as a Red. Sad but that's the only way to view it IMO.

    Minor quibble - I'd say Lively was a tick higher than Johnson but your point stands.

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  3. #32
    Daffy Duck RedTeamGo!'s Avatar
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    Re: RP Ben Lively

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    Bad news, bro....
    Amir Garrett average spin rate - 1917
    Ben Lively average spin rate - 1991

    Those would rank 207th and 209th in baseball of pitchers with 150 fastballs thrown. Out of 211.
    Well, that's a bummer to see with Garrett, but isn't Lively known for his slider?
    What would you say.....ya do here?

  4. #33
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    Re: RP Ben Lively

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Servo View Post
    There's a reason you don't simply scout the line. David Holmberg was a freaking ace going by minor leagues before coming to the Reds..
    Speak of the devil, guess who is starting tomorrow foe the White Sox, and has a 2.54 ERA for them this year?
    “We’re going to get the pitching.” -Bob Castellini
    “You got the pitching, now what?” - Reds fans

  5. #34
    Member Tom Servo's Avatar
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    Re: RP Ben Lively

    Quote Originally Posted by 757690 View Post
    Speak of the devil, guess who is starting tomorrow foe the White Sox, and has a 2.54 ERA for them this year?
    What does the ERA matter? He's bad.
    “I don’t care,” Votto said of passing his friend and former teammate. “He’s in the past. Bye-bye, Jay.”

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    Puig Your Red (06-04-2017)

  7. #35
    Member 757690's Avatar
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    Re: RP Ben Lively

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Servo View Post
    What does the ERA matter? He's bad.
    Oh he's terrible. Just thought the coincidence was interesting.
    “We’re going to get the pitching.” -Bob Castellini
    “You got the pitching, now what?” - Reds fans

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    Tom Servo (06-04-2017)

  9. #36
    Sprinkles are for winners dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: RP Ben Lively

    Quote Originally Posted by RedTeamGo! View Post
    Perhaps, but maybe some should have done it a little more with Stephenson before declaring him the greatest arm the Reds organization has had in 40 years. Unfortunately, those of us that questioned Stephenson's MILB stats are seeing their fears
    come true.
    You do understand that there's a difference between saying someone has a great arm and saying they are a great pitcher, don't you? Ariel Hernandez has a better arm than anyone in the Reds organization and it's probably not too close. But he's not the organizations best pitcher.

    And Robert Stephenson, much like Hernandez, has a great arm, better than most. But he's got to find more consistency with the strikezone. But, you don't need to see the statline to know that. You can watch him pitch and know that. If you can find someone that said Stephenson was going to step into the Majors and start dominating right away, feel free to point that person out. Otherwise, I'm not really sure what your point really is. I think just about everyone thought that Stephenson would be inconsistent right out of the gate because of his struggles with the zone.

    But, I'll also submit Wandy Peralta. Guy couldn't strike out AAA hitters to save his life last year. He had some walk issues. He's owning big leaguers this year. Humiliating them.

  10. #37
    Sprinkles are for winners dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: RP Ben Lively

    Quote Originally Posted by RedTeamGo! View Post
    Well, that's a bummer to see with Garrett, but isn't Lively known for his slider?
    Lively isn't known for anything. The BA Handbook called all of his pitches 45-50 grade offerings.

    Garrett, on the other hand, IS known for his slider. That didn't make you think he was someone to be insanely worried about because of a low spin rate fastball.

  11. #38
    Daffy Duck RedTeamGo!'s Avatar
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    Re: RP Ben Lively

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    You do understand that there's a difference between saying someone has a great arm and saying they are a great pitcher, don't you? Ariel Hernandez has a better arm than anyone in the Reds organization and it's probably not too close. But he's not the organizations best pitcher.

    And Robert Stephenson, much like Hernandez, has a great arm, better than most. But he's got to find more consistency with the strikezone. But, you don't need to see the statline to know that. You can watch him pitch and know that. If you can find someone that said Stephenson was going to step into the Majors and start dominating right away, feel free to point that person out. Otherwise, I'm not really sure what your point really is. I think just about everyone thought that Stephenson would be inconsistent right out of the gate because of his struggles with the zone.

    But, I'll also submit Wandy Peralta. Guy couldn't strike out AAA hitters to save his life last year. He had some walk issues. He's owning big leaguers this year. Humiliating them.
    I said "arm" for a reason. Yes, I know the difference.

    Stephenson can/could throw hard. He can't locate. The bad control showed up in his stats. People ignored it because of how amazing his "arm" was. On the flip, people also ignored Lively's fantastic stats because he was consistently 90-92 mph on his fastball.

    What I am trying to say is there should and can be a happy middle ground.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    Lively isn't known for anything. The BA Handbook called all of his pitches 45-50 grade offerings.

    Garrett, on the other hand, IS known for his slider. That didn't make you think he was someone to be insanely worried about because of a low spin rate fastball.
    Fangraphs in 2014 called it a 55 slider.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    Lively isn't known for anything. The BA Handbook called all of his pitches 45-50 grade offerings.

    Garrett, on the other hand, IS known for his slider. That didn't make you think he was someone to be insanely worried about because of a low spin rate fastball.
    Where did I ever say I was insanely worried about him? Why even use that word? If you are referring to the "ruined" comment I simply meant now every time I see Garrett pitching I can't help but think of his terrible spin rate.

    It's similar to finding out Jenny McCarthy is a crazy person that is hurting society. Before I just thought "dang she's hot." Now she's ruined.
    Last edited by RedTeamGo!; 06-04-2017 at 12:36 AM.
    What would you say.....ya do here?

  12. #39
    Sprinkles are for winners dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: RP Ben Lively

    Ben Lively is no Amir Garrett. Or Sal Romano. Or Robert Stephenson. Or about 8 other Cincinnati Reds minor league starting pitchers. He might get a start or two in Cincinnati in the same mold that Asher Wojciechowski is getting a few starts - because everyone has been on the disabled list - but that's it. He would not be in the future plans for the Reds. On the starting pitching depth chart he'd be with Wojo. He'd be with Stephens. You slide him to the bullpen and where's he fit in there? Not sure he does.

    The idea that he'd be some valuable piece to the Reds right now, or that they are missing something, is crazy talk.

  13. #40
    Who wants a mustache ride Ohayou's Avatar
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    Re: RP Ben Lively

    Nobody thought anything of Alfredo Simon or Dan Straily, and they both turned out to be incredibly valuable pieces.

    Byrd turns 40 in August.
    Arise and walk, come through. A world beyond that door is calling out for you. Arise and walk, come through. It's calling out for you.

  14. #41
    Member Rojo Rijo's Avatar
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    Re: RP Ben Lively

    That same December the Reds got Suarez and Crawford (Lively-esque stuff) for Simon and DeSclafani and Wallach for Latos.

    2-3 isnt bad


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  15. #42
    Member 757690's Avatar
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    Re: RP Ben Lively

    Quote Originally Posted by Rojo Rijo View Post
    That same December the Reds got Suarez and Crawford (Lively-esque stuff) for Simon and DeSclafani and Wallach for Latos.

    2-3 isnt bad


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    “We’re going to get the pitching.” -Bob Castellini
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  16. #43
    Posting in Dynarama M2's Avatar
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    Re: RP Ben Lively

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Servo View Post
    a somewhat better version of Rookie Davis.
    That's a solid description. Might mean he's a useful pitcher or it might mean he's AAAA filler.
    Friends don't let friends fWAR.

    Coddle thy pitchers.

  17. #44
    Pitter Patter TRF's Avatar
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    Re: RP Ben Lively

    Quote Originally Posted by M2 View Post
    That's a solid description. Might mean he's a useful pitcher or it might mean he's AAAA filler.
    I'm not sure he's actually better than Davis. To put up the numbers he did last year while hurt and pitching with diminished velocity says a lot. He's still intriguing to me, but the Reds waaaaay rushed him to the MLB level. He should have been in AAA all of this year.

    But all this hand wringing over Ben freaking Lively? ugh. What a waste of ones and zeroes to paraphrase woy.
    Use a Cocktail Stick!

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    cincyinco (06-05-2017)

  19. #45
    Member klw's Avatar
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    Re: RP Ben Lively

    Worst part of the Byrd acquisition is that it did not happen in 2013.


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