Hoosier Basketball: Archie’s Tiki Torch

[Revering4Blue]

I mentioned this in the OSU thread, but the thing that struck me with IU was they had a guy on the post that OSU couldn't guard. Every time they played a two man game with him, he scored, rather easily. It was Jackson-Davis who was able to score at will. I had no idea why IU didn't go to that two man game every possession until OSU found something to stop it.

I feel like each and every year IU has some talent, has a guy who is drafted, but the talent doesn't equal the production on the court. They aren't a team I would want to draw in the tournament, but then again they may fizzle out.

I missed the first half of Saturday's game, so I can't really comment on the match-up conundrum. But I think it's safe to say that Holtmann made an adjustment there. And when you're (IU) getting absolutely nothing from all of your guards, a blowout at the hands of a team likely destined for a #1 seed is inevitable.

As for your second paragraph, the only player drafted during Archie's tenure so far has been Romeo Langford, who played 75 percent of his lone CBB season injured. In totality, the Hoosiers have finished in the conference each season approximately where they were projected to finish. And I've already spelled out the reasoning as to why it hasn't happened as fast for Archie as it has for Holtmann - No disrespect to Holtmann.

And with the Pandemic cancelling last season's tournament (in which IU, by all accounts, had qualified), we'll never know the Hoosiers' season would have played out. Sure, they could've been pummeled in the first round. But it wasn't out of the realm of possibility that both Devonte Green and TJD could've heated up and carried them to the Sweet 16. The '19 team could've also been dangerous with a healthy Langford and Hunter. In both cases, the talk of CAM being over-matched would be a moot point.

[Revering4Blue]

I do not agree at all Holtmann inherited a structurally sound situation. He had to completely revamp the roster.

Matta’s last big class all either transferred or were booted from the team. Holtmann had to start from complete scratch.

But Holtmann also had Keita Bates-Diop returning from, IIRC, a redshirt year. Any way you wish to slice it, Holtmann inherited an overall more talented roster than CAM. Most importantly, he was allowed to make roster moves that CAM was prohibited from making due to the APR mess that Crean created.

And again, I'll ask this question: Would you rather inherit Matta's players than Crean's players? Yeah, me too.

[RedTeamGo!]

But Holtmann also had Keita Bates-Diop returning from, IIRC, a redshirt year. Any way you wish to slice it, Holtmann inherited an overall more talented roster than CAM. Most importantly, he was allowed to make roster moves that CAM was prohibited from making due to the APR mess that Crean created.

And again, I'll ask this question: Would you rather inherit Matta's players than Crean's players? Yeah, me too.

I don’t think you know how toxic the situation was in Columbus at the end for Matta. Take a look at the 2015 and 2016 recruiting classes. The 2015 class, specifically, had literally all 5 players either transfer or get kicked off the team. All. Five.

[Revering4Blue]

I don’t think you know how toxic the situation was in Columbus at the end for Matta. Take a look at the 2015 and 2016 recruiting classes. The 2015 class, specifically, had literally all 5 players either transfer or get kicked off the team. All. Five.

I'm fully aware, believe me. Even so, compare the rosters from their (CAM and Holtmann) first B1G season:

OSU

https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb...tate/2018.html

IU

https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb...iana/2018.html

No Comparison, especially when you consider the loss for the season of De'Ron Davis early in Archie's first season. And Young was allowed to decommit from Butler to join Holtmann in Columbus, while McKinley Wright was prohibited from joining CAM in Bloomington thanks to the APR mess.

While Holtmann in no way, shape or form inherited the 'stronger' situations that Mack inherited in Louisville or Cronin inherited at UCLA, compared with what CAM inherited at IU, it was flat-out paradise.

That said, this debate has become tiresome. I cannot fully judge CAM until the bulk of his current underclassmen become upperclassman. And honestly, I have ZERO faith in this IU administration to identify and land a potential successor, especially if they cow-tow to the 'we need an IU guy' crowd.

[Boston Red]

Is there an "Indiana guy" out there right now? That thought naturally led me to wonder what had become of Damon Bailey since, not knowing anything about him other than the general story and public image, 25 years ago you'd have thought he was EXACTLY the kind of person who would eventually be Indiana's basketball coach. First of all, it made me feel incredibly old to see that Bailey will turn 50 this year. Secondly, pretty surprising given his legend that as a coach he never rose above assistant coach for the women's team at Butler.

[Revering4Blue]

Is there an "Indiana guy" out there right now? That thought naturally led me to wonder what had become of Damon Bailey since, not knowing anything about him other than the general story and public image, 25 years ago you'd have thought he was EXACTLY the kind of person who would eventually be Indiana's basketball coach. First of all, it made me feel incredibly old to see that Bailey will turn 50 this year. Secondly, pretty surprising given his legend that as a coach he never rose above assistant coach for the women's team at Butler.

If an "Indiana Guy" refers to an "IU Guy," as of now, the answer is an emphatic no; At least from the standpoint of a logical hire, as opposed to an emotional hire.

As for Bailey, IMO, the biggest 'what if' scenario regarding his career revolves around his future as a pro. While he was an ill fit for the era of NBA basketball at the time, he would have likely fit like a proverbial glove in today's pace-and-space / let 'er rip from three-point-land NBA landscape of today. I'm not saying that he would've been an ALL-Star, but he could've settled in to a JJ Redick-like career, as he was a better athlete than JJ and as least as good of an athlete as Tyler Herro. Plus, most have forgotten that the most effective IU post players of that era were Calbert Cheaney and Bailey.

[Assembly Hall]

Is Archie the right guy? Seems like he has the talent, but his teams just don't execute.

I still believe Archie to be the guy. Now whether he is given the time to succeed is a completely different conversation.

[Assembly Hall]

If an "Indiana Guy" refers to an "IU Guy," as of now, the answer is an emphatic no; At least from the standpoint of a logical hire, as opposed to an emotional hire.

Dane Fife?

[redsfanmia]

Is there an "Indiana guy" out there right now? That thought naturally led me to wonder what had become of Damon Bailey since, not knowing anything about him other than the general story and public image, 25 years ago you'd have thought he was EXACTLY the kind of person who would eventually be Indiana's basketball coach. First of all, it made me feel incredibly old to see that Bailey will turn 50 this year. Secondly, pretty surprising given his legend that as a coach he never rose above assistant coach for the women's team at Butler.

He owns a storage/shipping company the last I heard. I think he kind of got burned out being an Indiana Legend.

[Assembly Hall]

He owns a storage/shipping company the last I heard. I think he kind of got burned out being an Indiana Legend.

Hope he ain't partners with Todd Leary.

[Revering4Blue]

Dane Fife?

Still unproven as a head coach to be considered any more than an emotional IU hire at this point. But still likely the best choice of an IU guy. You have to figure that he's learned a thing or two from Izzo.

[bucksfan2]

I'm fully aware, believe me. Even so, compare the rosters from their (CAM and Holtmann) first B1G season:

OSU

https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb...tate/2018.html

IU

https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb...iana/2018.html

No Comparison, especially when you consider the loss for the season of De'Ron Davis early in Archie's first season. And Young was allowed to decommit from Butler to join Holtmann in Columbus, while McKinley Wright was prohibited from joining CAM in Bloomington thanks to the APR mess.

While Holtmann in no way, shape or form inherited the 'stronger' situations that Mack inherited in Louisville or Cronin inherited at UCLA, compared with what CAM inherited at IU, it was flat-out paradise.

That said, this debate has become tiresome. I cannot fully judge CAM until the bulk of his current underclassmen become upperclassman. And honestly, I have ZERO faith in this IU administration to identify and land a potential successor, especially if they cow-tow to the 'we need an IU guy' crowd.

I wouldn't call what Holtman inherited at OSU a dumpster fire, but it was damn near close to it. Holtman's first season at OSU may have been one of my favorites in a long time because the team really overachieved and came out of nowhere. If you go back to Matta's final season at OSU, that team quit. From the top to bottom, that team underachieved, played horribly, and hung it up prior to their last game. I still remember the team being knocked out by a bad Rutgers team in the B1G tournament. They probably had one of the least liked Buckeyes in a long time, Marc Loving, who was just synonymous with the end of the Matta era.

Holtman's team got a boost when KBD returned from injury and played like many people thought he could. Tate is an NBA guy right now, but back then he was an undersized hustle guy. He was the type of player you would say no, no, no and the all of a sudden when it works you said yes. Kam and CJ Jackson (who I forgot existed) were nice roll players, and Wesson was a big bonus, a guy who was going to OSU regardless of coach. It was a team that came together and took advantage of a down B1G to have a nice season.

I think what has made Holtman such a good coach at OSU is that he is able to change styles of the game in order to suit his players. I don't watch enough of IU ball to know if CAM does the same thing.

[RedTeamGo!]

I wouldn't call what Holtman inherited at OSU a dumpster fire, but it was damn near close to it. Holtman's first season at OSU may have been one of my favorites in a long time because the team really overachieved and came out of nowhere. If you go back to Matta's final season at OSU, that team quit. From the top to bottom, that team underachieved, played horribly, and hung it up prior to their last game. I still remember the team being knocked out by a bad Rutgers team in the B1G tournament. They probably had one of the least liked Buckeyes in a long time, Marc Loving, who was just synonymous with the end of the Matta era.

Holtman's team got a boost when KBD returned from injury and played like many people thought he could. Tate is an NBA guy right now, but back then he was an undersized hustle guy. He was the type of player you would say no, no, no and the all of a sudden when it works you said yes. Kam and CJ Jackson (who I forgot existed) were nice roll players, and Wesson was a big bonus, a guy who was going to OSU regardless of coach. It was a team that came together and took advantage of a down B1G to have a nice season.

I think what has made Holtman such a good coach at OSU is that he is able to change styles of the game in order to suit his players. I don't watch enough of IU ball to know if CAM does the same thing.

Ughhh Loving. He went to my high school and I still remember watching him dominate 17-18 year olds as a freshman in Northwest OH. He just never got stronger and played like he was recovering from mono.

[Assembly Hall]

Still unproven as a head coach to be considered any more than an emotional IU hire at this point. But still likely the best choice of an IU guy. You have to figure that he's learned a thing or two from Izzo.

And he played for Knight.

There is a poster on HSN that clamors for the HC at Indiana Weslyan to get a look at by IU.

[Assembly Hall]

I wouldn't call what Holtman inherited at OSU a dumpster fire, but it was damn near close to it. Holtman's first season at OSU may have been one of my favorites in a long time because the team really overachieved and came out of nowhere. If you go back to Matta's final season at OSU, that team quit. From the top to bottom, that team underachieved, played horribly, and hung it up prior to their last game. I still remember the team being knocked out by a bad Rutgers team in the B1G tournament. They probably had one of the least liked Buckeyes in a long time, Marc Loving, who was just synonymous with the end of the Matta era.

Holtman's team got a boost when KBD returned from injury and played like many people thought he could. Tate is an NBA guy right now, but back then he was an undersized hustle guy. He was the type of player you would say no, no, no and the all of a sudden when it works you said yes. Kam and CJ Jackson (who I forgot existed) were nice roll players, and Wesson was a big bonus, a guy who was going to OSU regardless of coach. It was a team that came together and took advantage of a down B1G to have a nice season.

I think what has made Holtman such a good coach at OSU is that he is able to change styles of the game in order to suit his players. I don't watch enough of IU ball to know if CAM does the same thing.

Didn't Matta have a Top Ten recruiting class that completely failed? Maybe the one that had Jaquan Lyle?