Hoosier Basketball: Archie’s Tiki Torch

[bucksfan2]

Didn't Matta have a Top Ten recruiting class that completely failed? Maybe the one that had Jaquan Lyle?

He had two. Going on memory here, Matta had several big time recruiting classes. First one was the Oden/Connelly/Cook class. Then he reloaded a few years later with the Sullinger/Thomas/Sibert/Craft class. Just looking through his classes, he was money from 2006 until 2010, even his off year classes were pretty damn good. Matta was a very good regional recruiter, and during time, the Ohio/Indiana region was pretty talented, combine that with the dumpster fire IU was at the time, Matta cleaned up.

I believe the beginning of the end was the 11 class which included Amir Williams/Shannon Scott/LaQuinten Ross/Sam MacDonald/Slam Thompson. Those guys were solid players, but they never achieved what they could have, sans Ross. The worst thing for a top rated class is to have the guys be ok, take up a scholarship for four years, and really do nothing. Scott, MacDonald, and Williams were exactly that. That class was the #6 overall class.

Thad had a good 2014 class with KBD and Russell, problem was, those guys were joining the underachieving class. Russell was a pleasure to watch, and that class could really have been a spark, but the seniors at the time were pretty vanilla at best. The 15 class, which was the #5 in the nation, saw every single player transfer, quit, or be dismissed after two seasons. And quite frankly, the only player who was any good in that class was Lyle, who was his own worst enemy.

The 11 class was the beginning of the end because they stayed but weren't very good. The 14 class was the nail in the coffin because they all left.

[Revering4Blue]

I think what has made Holtman such a good coach at OSU is that he is able to change styles of the game in order to suit his players. I don't watch enough of IU ball to know if CAM does the same thing.

CAM really hasn't been able to establish the faster pace that he reportedly prefers. But that may change once Lander begins to receive the lion's share of minutes at PG. As a result, the IU offense often is slowed to a crawl. Contrary to popular belief, his offenses do produce quality open looks, they've simply missed far too many of them - often missed bunnies. And nobody has any explanation for the free throw woes.

In addition to scratching-and-clawing their way to victories against teams more talented (at least on paper) than their own, one trait both Holtmann's Butler teams and Archie Miller's Dayton teams possessed was the poise that their teams demonstrated in close games. That trait has continued on at OSU with Holtmann, and not so much for CAM's IU teams, though they've demonstrated such poise recently while pulling out the previous two close wins against Iowa and Northwestern, respectively. In close games, it's imperative that trend continues for IU.

[Revering4Blue]

And he played for Knight.

There is a poster on HSN that clamors for the HC at Indiana Weslyan to get a look at by IU.

I wouldn't be the least bit surprised were Ball State to pursue either Fife or Greg Tonegal should they decide to move on from Whitford, who has been there for eight seasons with little, if any, to show for it.

And it's not a stretch to suggest that Fife would be world's better than Wojo at Marquette. After all, Crean was an Izzo assistant when he moved on to Marquette. And word on the street is that Fife is likely going to lose out on the job as Izzo's eventual successor to Dwayne Stephens.

[bucksfan2]

CAM really hasn't been able to establish the faster pace that he reportedly prefers. But that may change once Lander begins to receive the lion's share of minutes at PG. As a result, the IU offense often is slowed to a crawl. Contrary to popular belief, his offenses do produce quality open looks, they've simply missed far too many of them - often missed bunnies. And nobody has any explanation for the free throw woes.

In addition to scratching-and-clawing their way to victories against teams more talented (at least on paper) than their own, one trait both Holtmann's Butler teams and Archie Miller's Dayton teams possessed was the poise that their teams demonstrated in close games. That trait has continued on at OSU with Holtmann, and not so much for CAM's IU teams, though they've demonstrated such poise recently while pulling out the previous two close wins against Iowa and Northwestern, respectively. In close games, it's imperative that trend continues for IU.

As long as the two are still in their current jobs they will forever be linked. And I don't mean to turn this into an OSU debate, so I apologize if that is the case.

I don't know the inner workings of the IU program, I do know that they consider themselves a "Blue Blood" without much recent success. I also know that while Crean got the program to a national contender, it was the most bizzare build I have ever witnessed. Just the other day I was reading an OSU website talking about the day OSU beat IU, but IU still cut down the nets because they tied for the B1G title. What I do find interesting is that IU may be the more prestigious job, but if you are fine being second fiddle to the football team, there may not be a better job than OSU.

If IU comes knocking, you have to take the job, there is just too much to gain from doing so. But if you are hamstrung with what you want to build, and your style doesn't fit the mold of your current roster, it may be too much to overcome. Adapting is almost the most important job of a coach in today's game. CAM coming from UD where you really aren't worried about losing guys early. You can build a program over three years whereas at IU there is constant churn. I know at OSU Holtman has seen several guys transfer out because they didn't like their role, including important guys who you would have thought had a big role with the club.

[Hoosier Red]

As long as the two are still in their current jobs they will forever be linked. And I don't mean to turn this into an OSU debate, so I apologize if that is the case.

I don't know the inner workings of the IU program, I do know that they consider themselves a "Blue Blood" without much recent success. I also know that while Crean got the program to a national contender, it was the most bizzare build I have ever witnessed. Just the other day I was reading an OSU website talking about the day OSU beat IU, but IU still cut down the nets because they tied for the B1G title. What I do find interesting is that IU may be the more prestigious job, but if you are fine being second fiddle to the football team, there may not be a better job than OSU.

If IU comes knocking, you have to take the job, there is just too much to gain from doing so. But if you are hamstrung with what you want to build, and your style doesn't fit the mold of your current roster, it may be too much to overcome. Adapting is almost the most important job of a coach in today's game. CAM coming from UD where you really aren't worried about losing guys early. You can build a program over three years whereas at IU there is constant churn. I know at OSU Holtman has seen several guys transfer out because they didn't like their role, including important guys who you would have thought had a big role with the club.

I think a lot of what hamstrung Miller (at the start at least) was the APR situation he was left with. It meant he couldn't reshape the roster to his liking.
Now that said, he's had 4 years to shape said roster. Basically everyone there is one of his guys.
I pretty much fall in with Assembly Hall, I think he's still the best shot IU has at getting back to relevance, but the clock's ticking.
He's helped by the fact there's no slam dunk hire that would make sense in the same way Archie Miller made sense when he was hired.

[Assembly Hall]

As long as the two are still in their current jobs they will forever be linked. And I don't mean to turn this into an OSU debate, so I apologize if that is the case.

I don't know the inner workings of the IU program, I do know that they consider themselves a "Blue Blood" without much recent success. I also know that while Crean got the program to a national contender, it was the most bizzare build I have ever witnessed. Just the other day I was reading an OSU website talking about the day OSU beat IU, but IU still cut down the nets because they tied for the B1G title. What I do find interesting is that IU may be the more prestigious job, but if you are fine being second fiddle to the football team, there may not be a better job than OSU.

If IU comes knocking, you have to take the job, there is just too much to gain from doing so. But if you are hamstrung with what you want to build, and your style doesn't fit the mold of your current roster, it may be too much to overcome. Adapting is almost the most important job of a coach in today's game. CAM coming from UD where you really aren't worried about losing guys early. You can build a program over three years whereas at IU there is constant churn. I know at OSU Holtman has seen several guys transfer out because they didn't like their role, including important guys who you would have thought had a big role with the club.

History has shown that tOSU along with Michigan(Both football 1st schools) can win on the big stage in basketball no matter who is coaching them. I don't mean that in a bad way, just what I have witnessed during my lifetime. Incredible basketball schools that perhaps get overlooked by those outside of B1G country.

[Revering4Blue]

As long as the two are still in their current jobs they will forever be linked. And I don't mean to turn this into an OSU debate, so I apologize if that is the case.

I don't know the inner workings of the IU program, I do know that they consider themselves a "Blue Blood" without much recent success. I also know that while Crean got the program to a national contender, it was the most bizzare build I have ever witnessed. Just the other day I was reading an OSU website talking about the day OSU beat IU, but IU still cut down the nets because they tied for the B1G title. What I do find interesting is that IU may be the more prestigious job, but if you are fine being second fiddle to the football team, there may not be a better job than OSU.

If IU comes knocking, you have to take the job, there is just too much to gain from doing so. But if you are hamstrung with what you want to build, and your style doesn't fit the mold of your current roster, it may be too much to overcome. Adapting is almost the most important job of a coach in today's game. CAM coming from UD where you really aren't worried about losing guys early. You can build a program over three years whereas at IU there is constant churn. I know at OSU Holtman has seen several guys transfer out because they didn't like their role, including important guys who you would have thought had a big role with the club.

First, thanks for the response. I appreciate the input from non-IU fans. Both you and RedTeamGo! have added much to this discussion. Some additional thoughts:

As long as the two are still in their current jobs they will forever be linked.

Absolutely true. But my issue - and this is mostly directed at the IU fan base - is that I've never placed much stock into the 'Coach A should be doing as well as Coach B because they were hired at the same time' argument. And I want to make this clear: I don't believe that's the intent of you Buckeye fans, as you're as baffled as anyone who doesn't follow IU closely as to why the program can't seem to get over the hump.

Anyway, I'll just state this: Were the shoe on the other foot from the get-go - For example, Holtmann currently experiencing similar issues at OSU to CAM at IU, while CAM has the IU program seemingly humming along - I"d still be stating the same opinion about Holtmann for said hypothetical situation as I have for Miller's situation: While consistent on-court success hasn't transpired as fast as you desire, you've got the right guy. And you're about to turn the corner if you don't pull the plug on his tenure.

I don't know the inner workings of the IU program, I do know that they consider themselves a "Blue Blood" without much recent success.

I've always viewed the "Blue Blood" as sort of an historic term, meaning at least two sustained periods as an absolute National Power, usually occurring multiple head coaches. In that sense, IU is very much a "Blue Blood," but that rarely amounts to a hill of beans when it comes to recruiting unless you are also a current Elite Program, which IU, of course, hasn't been for decades. In many ways IU Hoops resembles Nebraska Football from a BlueBlood standpoint: Both have a long history as sustained National Powers, but are NOT Elite Programs at all today. The major difference between the two, though: IU basketball is still very much an Elite Job. I think that's an important distinction.

Just the other day I was reading an OSU website talking about the day OSU beat IU, but IU still cut down the nets because they tied for the B1G title

You just had to remind me of this. I literally wanted to crawl into a hole for awhile that.

What I do find interesting is that IU may be the more prestigious job, but if you are fine being second fiddle to the football team, there may not be a better job than OSU.

I believe that you stated it best in of the previous incarnations of this thread when you said something to the effect of 'While IU may be considered the top B1G job, it's not that much better than OSU. And the fact that OSU, as well as Michigan, Florida and Texas, are Football-first schools while still Top-Tier/Elite hoops jobs that allow a coach to live and work in a non-fishbowl environment. Thus, your spot-on point about OSU as one of the most appealing CBB jobs.

If IU comes knocking, you have to take the job, there is just too much to gain from doing so.

I don't believe that this is as true (and you can also say this about UNC, Duke, UK etc..) as 10-20 years ago due to a drastically differing CBB landscape. Given the proliferation of games on National Television (FS1, FS2, Several ESPN spinoffs and Big Ten, SEC, ACC Networks etc..) and the heavy use of social media, players and programs can promote themselves in a more expedient fashion today. And the fact that Markell Fultz from the Wahington Huskies was drafted #1 in "17 sent a clear message that one-an-done talent need not play for the usual one-and-done factories.

Using a non-IU example, as opposed to '07, John Beilein would have virtually zero need to jump to Michigan today to recruit top-tier classes, as the aforementioned elements at his disposal today would allow for him to assemble the Michigan-type classes in Morgantown. Fast forward to today: If you're Scott Drew, Chris Beard, Mark Few, Jay Wright etc and you've already built a top-tier National Program (with the exception of Few, in a major conference), you have no reason to seriously entertain any offer from another school, even if the offer originates from a school considered an Elite Job, other than to obviously utilize the outside offer to gain a raise from your current school.

Roy Williams jumping from one elite job (Kansas) to another (UNC) years ago - and basically because he had strong ties to Dean Smith and UNC - was the exception and not the rule.

[Revering4Blue]

History has shown that tOSU along with Michigan(Both football 1st schools) can win on the big stage in basketball no matter who is coaching them. I don't mean that in a bad way, just what I have witnessed during my lifetime. Incredible basketball schools that perhaps get overlooked by those outside of B1G country.

Bingo.

And minus the part of getting overlooked outside of B1G country, you can also say the same about the Florida and Texas jobs.

[Assembly Hall]

Bingo.

And minus the part of getting overlooked outside of B1G country, you can also say the same about the Florida and Texas jobs.

You forgot about Notre Dame...

[bucksfan2]

First, thanks for the response. I appreciate the input from non-IU fans. Both you and RedTeamGo! have added much to this discussion. Some additional thoughts:

Absolutely true. But my issue - and this is mostly directed at the IU fan base - is that I've never placed much stock into the 'Coach A should be doing as well as Coach B because they were hired at the same time' argument. And I want to make this clear: I don't believe that's the intent of you Buckeye fans, as you're as baffled as anyone who doesn't follow IU closely as to why the program can't seem to get over the hump.

Anyway, I'll just state this: Were the shoe on the other foot from the get-go - For example, Holtmann currently experiencing similar issues at OSU to CAM at IU, while CAM has the IU program seemingly humming along - I"d still be stating the same opinion about Holtmann for said hypothetical situation as I have for Miller's situation: While consistent on-court success hasn't transpired as fast as you desire, you've got the right guy. And you're about to turn the corner if you don't pull the plug on his tenure.

I am someone who grew up during the Huggins glory days at UC where CBB was king. I can say without a doubt that basketball at OSU was on the back burner prior to Thad. There was a lot that went into it, O'Brien was a pretty blah coach, the arena is a multi-purpose NBA style arena. St Johns is a much better college arena. And while it is "on" campus, its at the far end of campus. Thad brought a lot of excitement back and with it a team that could compete for titles.

Holtmann has faced some criticism for his roster build. Just this past summer there was talk about him running players out, all the while taking Jimmy Soto and Able Porter as transfers, guys who were role players at best, and Soto wasn't anything more than an ok backup PG at the B1G level. Porter has since retired because of a medical condition. But all the while I think Holtmann was building a roster to his liking, a roster with a lot of flexibility, a roster that didn't revolve around a big man. I remember watching OSU v Iowa, and Garza (who is a great College player) was getting beat up and down the court. These plodding big men, even if they can shoot, can get run out of their effectiveness. Holtmann is also the kind of coach who says you either buy into your role, or you leave. As a fan I wanted him to fight for Carton (which was an interesting case) as well as Muhammad, but reality was those guys were good, and at least in Muhammad's case, replaceable.

All of that said, I don't think Holtmann would be on the hot seat if he had CAM's record, but it would be warming. While OSU BB isn't in the limelight, they still want a competitive team who can win the B1G and advance in the tournament. One thing you have to consider is at OSU right now, people are more concerned with who will play the slot WR and who will be the starting QB than they are about the basketball team. Holtmann gets that (and may relish it) and uses it to his advantage. CAM doesn't have that luxury.

I've always viewed the "Blue Blood" as sort of an historic term, meaning at least two sustained periods as an absolute National Power, usually occurring multiple head coaches. In that sense, IU is very much a "Blue Blood," but that rarely amounts to a hill of beans when it comes to recruiting unless you are also a current Elite Program, which IU, of course, hasn't been for decades. In many ways IU Hoops resembles Nebraska Football from a BlueBlood standpoint: Both have a long history as sustained National Powers, but are NOT Elite Programs at all today. The major difference between the two, though: IU basketball is still very much an Elite Job. I think that's an important distinction.

Good points.

You just had to remind me of this. I literally wanted to crawl into a hole for awhile that.

Crean was the most bizzare coach I have ever witnessed. I had forgotten about that until I read the article, but he also threw a party when the beat a ranked team. I remember watching that from afar thinking what in the world is going on.

I believe that you stated it best in of the previous incarnations of this thread when you said something to the effect of 'While IU may be considered the top B1G job, it's not that much better than OSU. And the fact that OSU, as well as Michigan, Florida and Texas, are Football-first schools while still Top-Tier/Elite hoops jobs that allow a coach to live and work in a non-fishbowl environment. Thus, your spot-on point about OSU as one of the most appealing CBB jobs.

I don't believe that this is as true (and you can also say this about UNC, Duke, UK etc..) as 10-20 years ago due to a drastically differing CBB landscape. Given the proliferation of games on National Television (FS1, FS2, Several ESPN spinoffs and Big Ten, SEC, ACC Networks etc..) and the heavy use of social media, players and programs can promote themselves in a more expedient fashion today. And the fact that Markell Fultz from the Wahington Huskies was drafted #1 in "17 sent a clear message that one-an-done talent need not play for the usual one-and-done factories.

Using a non-IU example, as opposed to '07, John Beilein would have virtually zero need to jump to Michigan today to recruit top-tier classes, as the aforementioned elements at his disposal today would allow for him to assemble the Michigan-type classes in Morgantown. Fast forward to today: If you're Scott Drew, Chris Beard, Mark Few, Jay Wright etc and you've already built a top-tier National Program (with the exception of Few, in a major conference), you have no reason to seriously entertain any offer from another school, even if the offer originates from a school considered an Elite Job, other than to obviously utilize the outside offer to gain a raise from your current school.

Roy Williams jumping from one elite job (Kansas) to another (UNC) years ago - and basically because he had strong ties to Dean Smith and UNC - was the exception and not the rule.

Gonzaga is a unique situation that I doubt you will ever see happen again. Baylor is rolling right now, but if Duke or Kansas or even Arizona came calling, it would be a tough for Drew to turn down. The thing with the blue blood programs is they will never run short of money to throw at the program. Should a Kansas or Duke or UK job come open in the next few years, I find it hard to believe that they won't get their guy. Now they may not go after Few, but I am sure they will make a strong run at Drew, and it would be tough to turn down.

[Revering4Blue]

I am someone who grew up during the Huggins glory days at UC where CBB was king. I can say without a doubt that basketball at OSU was on the back burner prior to Thad. There was a lot that went into it, O'Brien was a pretty blah coach, the arena is a multi-purpose NBA style arena. St Johns is a much better college arena. And while it is "on" campus, its at the far end of campus. Thad brought a lot of excitement back and with it a team that could compete for titles.

Holtmann has faced some criticism for his roster build. Just this past summer there was talk about him running players out, all the while taking Jimmy Soto and Able Porter as transfers, guys who were role players at best, and Soto wasn't anything more than an ok backup PG at the B1G level. Porter has since retired because of a medical condition. But all the while I think Holtmann was building a roster to his liking, a roster with a lot of flexibility, a roster that didn't revolve around a big man. I remember watching OSU v Iowa, and Garza (who is a great College player) was getting beat up and down the court. These plodding big men, even if they can shoot, can get run out of their effectiveness. Holtmann is also the kind of coach who says you either buy into your role, or you leave. As a fan I wanted him to fight for Carton (which was an interesting case) as well as Muhammad, but reality was those guys were good, and at least in Muhammad's case, replaceable.

All of that said, I don't think Holtmann would be on the hot seat if he had CAM's record, but it would be warming. While OSU BB isn't in the limelight, they still want a competitive team who can win the B1G and advance in the tournament. One thing you have to consider is at OSU right now, people are more concerned with who will play the slot WR and who will be the starting QB than they are about the basketball team. Holtmann gets that (and may relish it) and uses it to his advantage. CAM doesn't have that luxury.





Good points.




Crean was the most bizzare coach I have ever witnessed. I had forgotten about that until I read the article, but he also threw a party when the beat a ranked team. I remember watching that from afar thinking what in the world is going on.



Gonzaga is a unique situation that I doubt you will ever see happen again. Baylor is rolling right now, but if Duke or Kansas or even Arizona came calling, it would be a tough for Drew to turn down. The thing with the blue blood programs is they will never run short of money to throw at the program. Should a Kansas or Duke or UK job come open in the next few years, I find it hard to believe that they won't get their guy. Now they may not go after Few, but I am sure they will make a strong run at Drew, and it would be tough to turn down.

Drew's situation/future, IMO, depends upon NCAA success at this point. If he breaks through like Beard and leads the team to the Final Four with a National Championship appearance (if not win) not out of the question, he'll be firmly entrenched in Waco.

Sure, the Elite Job schools have advantages in regards to $$$, not to mention fanbases/National Brand recognition and proximity to talent, but it's not likely to sway an Elite coach who's coaching in either: 1)A major conference. 2) A situation like Gonzaga - Run roughshod through a relatively weak conference while scheduling (and beating) several high profile opponents.

I know (via a credible source) that IU didn't land a bigger 'name' last name due to the lack of $$$, they have as much $$$ as anyone, and they took their shot at a can't miss candidate and never advanced to the stage of actually offering him the job due largely to a hangup of the coach leaving his NBA team before the end his season. I still believe that once the 'old guard' of CBB coaches hang up their whistles, it's going to be difficult for the schools to replicate their success, as I don't believe that $$$ alone will land them any more than the next flavor-of-the-month up-and-coming coach.

[Revering4Blue]

You forgot about Notre Dame...

It's a much tougher job than OSU, Texas or Florida. It may actually be the toughest job in the ACC. And that's saying a lot with the likes of Clemson and Virginia Tech in the conference. And, much like Archie Miller's tenure at IU, Brey and ND have been bitten by the injury bug. They've been absolutely ravaged there recently.

[Assembly Hall]

Wait. What? IU can hit FT's?

[Assembly Hall]

It's a much tougher job than OSU, Texas or Florida. It may actually be the toughest job in the ACC. And that's saying a lot with the likes of Clemson and Virginia Tech in the conference. And, much like Archie Miller's tenure at IU, Brey and ND have been bitten by the injury bug. They've been absolutely ravaged there recently.

My point was ND being a football school. How long as Brey been there? Irish basketball fans don't ask for much...all 20 of them.

[Revering4Blue]

Wait. What? IU can hit FT's?

And three pointers. IU has now climbed to 100 overall in NCAA three pointer ranking, whereas they were previously in the 200s during CAM's tenure. Nice win, either way.