Casali vs Barnhart

[Rolando]

Barnhart is one if seven MLB catchers who qualifies as a starter from 2017-2018. And in 2017, he put up a 3.3 bWAR. I don’t use fWAR for catchers because they include the wildly unreliable “pitch framing” stats, (it’s funny Tucker has goos PF stats when the Reds had decent pitchers, then when they didn’t his PF suffere, and now that they have good ones again, his PF are good too)

Go throughout the league, you will not find 30 better catchers than Barnhart. He is not a backup, he is not backup quality. It’s a narrative that some here have pushed that facts don’t back up. Except if you buy into the very flimsy pitch framing numbers.

He is easily replaceable.

[757690]

He is easily replaceable.

A good catcher has always been one of the hardest players to find in baseball.

The Reds have one, locked up to a team friendly contract, and Reds fan want to get rid of him. Whatever.

[Rolando]

A good catcher has always been one of the hardest players to find in baseball.

The Reds have one, locked up to a team friendly contract, and Reds fan want to get rid of him. Whatever.

We just disagree on how good he is that's all.

[KronoRed]

He is easily replaceable.

Probably, but not so easy to dump if he's really so awful, they are going to be paying him.

[kaldaniels]

https://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.as...ter=&players=0

Pretty much the only thing Barnhart has over these guys is that he answers the bell every day.

[Patrick Bateman]

https://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.as...ter=&players=0

Pretty much the only thing Barnhart has over these guys is that he answers the bell every day.

That's the correct answer.... he's a guy that would be expected to get about 1 win worth of production over 500 plate appearances.... many combos of mediocre catchers can do that, and he's probably just "worth" his contract unless he can get back to top levels of defensive production. He is one of the weaker producers in the line-up, and would be an obvious player to review upgrades for in the trade market when applicable guys become available (ie. Realmuto was looked at hard but didn't want to meet the price).

[Rolando]

Probably, but not so easy to dump if he's really so awful, they are going to be paying him.

I don't disagree that's why I probably was a dumb move to give him a extension

[757690]

https://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.as...ter=&players=0

Pretty much the only thing Barnhart has over these guys is that he answers the bell every day.

Quite disingenuous, and manipulative.

1. You cherry picked a down year for Barnhart.
2. You set the PA’s at a random and meaningless number. 130
3. As I stated, Fangraphs dings Tucker quite heavily in pitch framing in 2017 and 2018, but rewards him in 2016 and this year.

He’s ranked 29th this year, amount all catchers, using fangraphs methods, and with him hitting way below expected.

https://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.as...ter=&players=0

[757690]

So Tucker was quite well respected defensively his entire career, he won the Minor League Gold Glove which is the given the best catcher in all of the minor leagues, and a Gold Glove at the major league level. He actually was quite well respected by most, if not all, here on Redszone for his entire career, until...

Fangraphs started adding pitch framing stats. That has been the decider for many here, as Fangraphs has taken away many fWAR "wins" from Tucker, do to their pitch framing stats.

Without getting into an existential debate over pitch framing stats in general, lets look at Tucker's pitch framing stats as provided by Fangraphs:

2014: -2.0 - 132 Inn
2015: +1.7 - 598 Inn
2016: -2.8 - 931 Inn
2017: -13.2 - 926 Inn
2018: -14.0 - 991 Inn
2019: +2.0 - 214 Inn

So, if you believe in these pitch framing stats, you need to believe that Tucker was pretty good at it for 1+ full seasons, then was terrible at it, and now, is excellent at it this season. There are logical explanations for it, but all of them require one to believe that Tucker is excellent at pitch framing this season.

So even if you believe in the pitch framing stats, you need to believe that Tucker is a well above average defensive catcher right now.

- - - Updated - - -

That's the correct answer.... he's a guy that would be expected to get about 1 win worth of production over 500 plate appearances.... many combos of mediocre catchers can do that, and he's probably just "worth" his contract unless he can get back to top levels of defensive production. He is one of the weaker producers in the line-up, and would be an obvious player to review upgrades for in the trade market when applicable guys become available (ie. Realmuto was looked at hard but didn't want to meet the price).

He put up a 3.3 bWAR in 2017.

[Patrick Bateman]

He put up a 3.3 bWAR in 2017.

I find that a completely uninteresting data point. I'm not buying into 1 year's worth of defensive stats in 2017 or 2018. Over his career he looks to be a slightly above average defender... which is what I have him pegged at through the volatility of the numbers being used. His bat stinks... his career has him generating about half a win over 500 plate appearances... I gave him a grade of 1 win over that span based on seeing him as a better defender than 2017 showed.

The entirety of the numbers simply does not tell the story of a difference maker, even at his salary. He is a poor second division starter, best used in a platoon role like the Reds are. They don't need to find ANYONE to replace him... but he is a position worth exploring upgrading on if the price is right.

[757690]

I find that a completely uninteresting data point. I'm not buying into 1 year's worth of defensive stats in 2017 or 2018. Over his career he looks to be a slightly above average defender... which is what I have him pegged at through the volatility of the numbers being used. His bat stinks... his career has him generating about half a win over 500 plate appearances... I gave him a grade of 1 win over that span based on seeing him as a better defender than 2017 showed.

The entirety of the numbers simply does not tell the story of a difference maker, even at his salary. He is a poor second division starter, best used in a platoon role like the Reds are. They don't need to find ANYONE to replace him... but he is a position worth exploring upgrading on if the price is right.

His bat is actually respectable for a catcher. He ranks 16th overall of catchers from 2017 to now with at least 750 PA's. He's actually 18th in overall fWAR, which is impressive considering how much he gets dinged for his pitch framing.

The guys ahead of him are all crazy expensive. He is not easily replaceable. Not in the least.

https://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.as...rs=0&sort=17,d

[kaldaniels]

Quite disingenuous, and manipulative.

1. You cherry picked a down year for Barnhart.
2. You set the PA’s at a random and meaningless number. 130
3. As I stated, Fangraphs dings Tucker quite heavily in pitch framing in 2017 and 2018, but rewards him in 2016 and this year.

He’s ranked 29th this year, amount all catchers, using fangraphs methods, and with him hitting way below expected.

https://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.as...ter=&players=0

You can set the data for any year or time other than 2017 (whatever his one good year was) alone as far as I care. I just went back a year. It would be best if done for his whole career, sure.

130 was just what I spun the PA to on my phone (it’s hard to change on mobile as others know I’m sure)

Nothing manipulative or disingenuous at all.

If you don’t like how FG stars or dings him defensively that’s fine.

[kaldaniels]

His bat is actually respectable for a catcher. He ranks 16th overall of catchers from 2017 to now with at least 750 PA's. He's actually 18th in overall fWAR, which is impressive considering how much he gets dinged for his pitch framing.

The guys ahead of him are all crazy expensive. He is not easily replaceable. Not in the least.

https://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.as...rs=0&sort=17,d

16th and 18th our of your data set of 21.

Which goes back to he is only good simply because he answers the bell. But he has also had the benefit of having the bell ringing for him. Not all catchers do...but Tucker has played for the lowly Reds.

[kaldaniels]

For the record I’m not using WAR here or anything. I just wanted a back of the napkin list of guys I’d rather have in the lineup on a given day (splits ignored) as opposed to Barnhart. That’s why I posted that FG link.

757690 it seems you were quick on the draw to accuse me of being manipulative. I don’t mind such accusations but you better get it right. Truly, you were off base on motives there.

[757690]

For the record I’m not using WAR here or anything. I just wanted a back of the napkin list of guys I’d rather have in the lineup on a given day (splits ignored) as opposed to Barnhart. That’s why I posted that FG link.

757690 it seems you were quick on the draw to accuse me of being manipulative. I don’t mind such accusations but you better get it right. Truly, you were off base on motives there.

My apologies for the accusation. I didn't realize you were just a simple unfrozen caveman lawyer