Casali vs Barnhart

[Tom Servo]

I don't believe Stephenson is closer based on his performance this year. He looks dangerously close to having hit the AA wall. The quickest thing that should be explored is to simply give Casali the majority of starts instead of Barnhart.

It’s still so soon into Stephenson’s AA career that a game or two drastically shifts his OPS. 3 games ago he was at .771, now it’s .729, so I’m just not putting too much into that number specifically. He’s still very young for a catcher and as long as he continues to improve behind the dish and keeps his head above water on offense he can still refine his game later.

[mth123]

Here are the players better than Barnhart right now.

https://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.as...ate=2019-12-31

I’m all for improving st any position possible. Show me someone on another team who the Reds could trade for and what it would cost to get them. Then we can start a discussion.

Or we could recognize that the Reds have a couple of in house options who have shown some life and give them a long look in what now appears to be a lost season. The Reds are on pace to lose 90 games yet again. They are locked into four more years of what looks to be the least productive 1B in the division and have Free Agents manning RF, eventually 2B and SS. Two Starters are potential FA and so are a couple of relievers. The RF from last year has fallen off the map, the SS has cratered and is more of a second baseman anyway, they seem set at 3B, CF maybe one corner OF spot (but that's still debatable ) they've been propped up by a couple of journeyman infielders having career years and they need to start looking for more production where they can find it. They know what they have with Barnhart. A ho hum catcher whose defensive impact is over-stated, whose offense is well below average and his contract rises to the Four Million per year range the next couple of years, so he isn't even a bargain compared to similar guys who are always available. Casali and Farmer should be getting more frequent playing time and lets see what we've got. The Reds won't miss the 0.1 WAR they are getting from Barnhart if they falter. As a matter of fact, he's still here.

Using your list, guys like Roberto Perez, Robinson Chirinos and James McCann are examples of guys who have spent most of their careers being basically what Curt Casali has been to date and all, now with expanded paying time, are far outpacing the production that Barnhart provides. It's not rocket science.

[malcontent]

Or we could recognize that the Reds have a couple of in house options who have shown some life and give them a long look in what now appears to be a lost season. The Reds are on pace to lose 90 games yet again. They are locked into four more years of what looks to be the least productive 1B in the division and have Free Agents manning RF, eventually 2B and SS. Two Starters are potential FA and so are a couple of relievers. The RF from last year has fallen off the map, the SS has cratered and is more of a second baseman anyway, they seem set at 3B, CF maybe one corner OF spot (but that's still debatable ) they've been propped up by a couple of journeyman infielders having career years and they need to start looking for more production where they can find it. They know what they have with Barnhart. A ho hum catcher whose defensive impact is over-stated, whose offense is well below average and his contract rises to the Four Million per year range the next couple of years, so he isn't even a bargain compared to similar guys who are always available. Casali and Farmer should be getting more frequent playing time and lets see what we've got. The Reds won't miss the 0.1 WAR they are getting from Barnhart if they falter. As a matter of fact, he's still here.

Using your list, guys like Roberto Perez, Robinson Chirinos and James McCann are examples of guys who have spent most of their careers being basically what Curt Casali has been to date and all, now with expanded paying time, are far outpacing the production that Barnhart provides. It's not rocket science.

Perfectly stated, IMO.

[Rolando]

Here are the players better than Barnhart right now.

https://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.as...ate=2019-12-31

I’m all for improving st any position possible. Show me someone on another team who the Reds could trade for and what it would cost to get them. Then we can start a discussion.

Or as Mth said you can just go to his backup who has out produced him this year

[fielder's choice]

Tucker is signed to a very team friendly contract through 2022. Including this season. $11M total $3M this season and $4M each of the next two seasons. That doesn’t get you a back up catcher on the free agent market.

This is pretty much the opposite of team friendly, IMO

[757690]

Or we could recognize that the Reds have a couple of in house options who have shown some life and give them a long look in what now appears to be a lost season. The Reds are on pace to lose 90 games yet again. They are locked into four more years of what looks to be the least productive 1B in the division and have Free Agents manning RF, eventually 2B and SS. Two Starters are potential FA and so are a couple of relievers. The RF from last year has fallen off the map, the SS has cratered and is more of a second baseman anyway, they seem set at 3B, CF maybe one corner OF spot (but that's still debatable ) they've been propped up by a couple of journeyman infielders having career years and they need to start looking for more production where they can find it. They know what they have with Barnhart. A ho hum catcher whose defensive impact is over-stated, whose offense is well below average and his contract rises to the Four Million per year range the next couple of years, so he isn't even a bargain compared to similar guys who are always available. Casali and Farmer should be getting more frequent playing time and lets see what we've got. The Reds won't miss the 0.1 WAR they are getting from Barnhart if they falter. As a matter of fact, he's still here.

Using your list, guys like Roberto Perez, Robinson Chirinos and James McCann are examples of guys who have spent most of their careers being basically what Curt Casali has been to date and all, now with expanded paying time, are far outpacing the production that Barnhart provides. It's not rocket science.

1. Farmer is not an option to play catcher on a regular basis. You wed to give up this bizarre fantasy you built in your head, This isn’t stratomatic.

2. Casali, Chirinos, McCan and Perez were all just as bad as Barnhart is now at one point. Catching lightning is a bottle is a fool’s errand. For every one these guys there are five to ten others who don’t have hot streaks early in a season. Remember Paul Bako killing it early in 2008 for the Reds?

3. The list reveals that unless they want to overspend, the Reds aren’t going to be able to upgrade at catcher. There are plenty of other, bigger holes that need to be filled that can be filled more efficiently.

4. I have no issuenwith giving a Casali more playing time. I’m guessing he will eventually. But my decades of watching baseball tell me that knee jerk reactions like this of playing the hot hand is likely to be disappointing.

[Rece Tyler]

Over on another site (Red Leg Nation i believe) i picked Curt Casali as my surprise "breakout" player this year.
I predicted that the C position would be a platoon by mid season and that Casali would be the Opening Day starting catcher in '20.
Sorry Tucker, but you kinda suck (which definitely has something to do with why the team was pursuing Realmuto this past offseason)

[Rolando]

1. Farmer is not an option to play catcher on a regular basis. You wed to give up this bizarre fantasy you built in your head, This isn’t stratomatic.

2. Casali, Chirinos, McCan and Perez were all just as bad as Barnhart is now at one point. Catching lightning is a bottle is a fool’s errand. For every one these guys there are five to ten others who don’t have hot streaks early in a season. Remember Paul Bako killing it early in 2008 for the Reds?

3. The list reveals that unless they want to overspend, the Reds aren’t going to be able to upgrade at catcher. There are plenty of other, bigger holes that need to be filled that can be filled more efficiently.

4. I have no issuenwith giving a Casali more playing time. I’m guessing he will eventually. But my decades of watching baseball tell me that knee jerk reactions like this of playing the hot hand is likely to be disappointing.

This year there might be no choice but I certainly hope the reds upgrade catcher next year.

[mth123]

1. Farmer is not an option to play catcher on a regular basis. You wed to give up this bizarre fantasy you built in your head, This isn’t stratomatic.

2. Casali, Chirinos, McCan and Perez were all just as bad as Barnhart is now at one point. Catching lightning is a bottle is a fool’s errand. For every one these guys there are five to ten others who don’t have hot streaks early in a season. Remember Paul Bako killing it early in 2008 for the Reds?

3. The list reveals that unless they want to overspend, the Reds aren’t going to be able to upgrade at catcher. There are plenty of other, bigger holes that need to be filled that can be filled more efficiently.

4. I have no issuenwith giving a Casali more playing time. I’m guessing he will eventually. But my decades of watching baseball tell me that knee jerk reactions like this of playing the hot hand is likely to be disappointing.

First of all, Farmer has 4213.333 innings of defense in his career and 2870.66 have been at Catcher. The Dodgers moved him around because he was versatile enough to handle it, they had Grandal and Barnes and other higher end prospects who weren't as easily moved like Keibert Ruiz, and Will Smith and they wanted to find a role for Farmer's bat. He's perfectly capable of getting a couple starts per week as the short end of a tandem.

SO your idea is to just keep running Barnhart and his 62 wRC+ out there on a team that is struggling to score runs? And while you are right, the negative WAR they've received from each of the four opening day OF is a bigger problem, the Reds moved on from two of those outfielders already and I'd bet the PT for the other two drops significantly upon Scooter's return. That brings us to the 62 wRC+ and 0.0 WAR starting Catcher that is also a pretty big problem - and it's one where the Reds have an in house alternative. So why is he immune to change? Upgrading the production where they can, should be a priority. Casali has hit fairly consistently since he got here and Farmer's minor league line was .295/.347/.441/.789.

So, I guess we can just keep running the same guys who don't produce out there over and over. You do realize is that all Casali and Farmer have to do is be around 20% below league average and they would still provide a significant upgrade don't you? Just what would be the harm in trying it? Are we afraid that not having Barnhart's replacement level play in there is going to kill he team? It may turn out that you are right. We won't know until these guys get some playing time. They are seven games under .500 and on pace to lose 90 games yet again. Barnhart has been a replacement caliber player to date. As of this morning, FanGraphs lists his WAR at 0.0. in 164 PAs. Casali and Farmer, in a combined 181 PAs have provided 0.8 WAR. You are the one who threw this list of guys out there sorted by WAR asking where we could find an upgrade. It's right there on the same list, using the same criteria. Extrapolated over a season, that's about a 2 WAR upgrade. Similar to removing a black hole and replacing it with league average production.

I don't pretend that this change will fix the Reds offense, but it isn't going to come from one place. The fall of Joey Votto from arguably being the best hitter in the game to barely above replacement level player is a massive negative that the Reds need to compensate for. Upgrading catcher by what projects to be about 2 WAR over the course of a season makes up for 30 to 40 percent of the difference between old Joey and what appears to be his new normal. The Reds need some pretty massive changes. It's likely that the career years being enjoyed by Dietrich and Iglesias won't continue. I'd start where they have in house options who are already producing in limited roles. VanMeter needs more PT as well. Time to move on from FA to be Puig and start sorting through the glut of AAAA late 20 somethings all having big years at AAA. Chances are, even if they do play well, they are just another Jon Nunnally, Chris Dickerson, Kris Negron, Chris Stynes (be wary of guys named Chris or Kris I guess) half year wonder, but maybe they'll be a more permanent improvement along the lines of Scooter Gennett, Brandon Phillips, and others picked up off the scrap heap who took their shot and ran with it. We won't know until they get that shot.

[757690]

First of all, Farmer has 4213.333 innings of defense in his career and 2870.66 have been at Catcher. The Dodgers moved him around because he was versatile enough to handle it, they had Grandal and Barnes and other higher end prospects who weren't as easily moved like Keibert Ruiz, and Will Smith and they wanted to find a role for Farmer's bat. He's perfectly capable of getting a couple starts per week as the short end of a tandem.

SO your idea is to just keep running Barnhart and his 62 wRC+ out there on a team that is struggling to score runs? And while you are right, the negative WAR they've received from each of the four opening day OF is a bigger problem, the Reds moved on from two of those outfielders already and I'd bet the PT for the other two drops significantly upon Scooter's return. That brings us to the 62 wRC+ and 0.0 WAR starting Catcher that is also a pretty big problem - and it's one where the Reds have an in house alternative. So why is he immune to change? Upgrading the production where they can, should be a priority. Casali has hit fairly consistently since he got here and Farmer's minor league line was .295/.347/.441/.789.

So, I guess we can just keep running the same guys who don't produce out there over and over. You do realize is that all Casali and Farmer have to do is be around 20% below league average and they would still provide a significant upgrade don't you? Just what would be the harm in trying it? Are we afraid that not having Barnhart's replacement level play in there is going to kill he team? It may turn out that you are right. We won't know until these guys get some playing time. They are seven games under .500 and on pace to lose 90 games yet again. Barnhart has been a replacement caliber player to date. As of this morning, FanGraphs lists his WAR at 0.0. in 164 PAs. Casali and Farmer, in a combined 181 PAs have provided 0.8 WAR. You are the one who threw this list of guys out there sorted by WAR asking where we could find an upgrade. It's right there on the same list, using the same criteria. Extrapolated over a season, that's about a 2 WAR upgrade. Similar to removing a black hole and replacing it with league average production.

I don't pretend that this change will fix the Reds offense, but it isn't going to come from one place. The fall of Joey Votto from arguably being the best hitter in the game to barely above replacement level player is a massive negative that the Reds need to compensate for. Upgrading catcher by what projects to be about 2 WAR over the course of a season makes up for 30 to 40 percent of the difference between old Joey and what appears to be his new normal. The Reds need some pretty massive changes. It's likely that the career years being enjoyed by Dietrich and Iglesias won't continue. I'd start where they have in house options who are already producing in limited roles. VanMeter needs more PT as well. Time to move on from FA to be Puig and start sorting through the glut of AAAA late 20 somethings all having big years at AAA. Chances are, even if they do play well, they are just another Jon Nunnally, Chris Dickerson, Kris Negron, Chris Stynes (be wary of guys named Chris or Kris I guess) half year wonder, but maybe they'll be a more permanent improvement along the lines of Scooter Gennett, Brandon Phillips, and others picked up off the scrap heap who took their shot and ran with it. We won't know until they get that shot.

1. There isn’t a single team in the history of baseball who would move a soldi defensive catcher off of catching in the minors, because he was blocked at the MLB level. Good defensive catchers are one of the most difficult commodities to find in baseball. If you have one, you keep him at catcher, and make a trade if he’s blocked. And the Dodgers needed a catcher this season, had Farmer, and not only did they not move him back to catcher, they traded him.

2. Catching is a defense first position, something that you and many others clearly don’t agree with. So if you base this discussion solely on offense, it will go nowhere. But for the record, according to Fangraphs, which I agree is very suspect, Barnhart is ranked as the 11th best defensive catcher in the majors right now. As I said earlier, I’m more concerned with how a catcher handles the pitching staff, so I’m not a big fan of messing with the catching position when the pitching is going well.

[mth123]

1. There isn’t a single team in the history of baseball who would move a soldi defensive catcher off of catching in the minors, because he was blocked at the MLB level. Good defensive catchers are one of the most difficult commodities to find in baseball. If you have one, you keep him at catcher, and make a trade if he’s blocked. And the Dodgers needed a catcher this season, had Farmer, and not only did they not move him back to catcher, they traded him.

2. Catching is a defense first position, something that you and many others clearly don’t agree with. So if you base this discussion solely on offense, it will go nowhere. But for the record, according to Fangraphs, which I agree is very suspect, Barnhart is ranked as the 11th best defensive catcher in the majors right now. As I said earlier, I’m more concerned with how a catcher handles the pitching staff, so I’m not a big fan of messing with the catching position when the pitching is going well.

This is where you are wrong. Teams move guys around all the time to get the best players onto the roster and into the line-up. As for defense at catcher, I value it a lot, I just don't over-rate what Barnhart actually provides. He's basically an average run of the mill defender. He's easily replaced by any of a plethora of other run of the mill catchers who don't hit much. Casali isn't a downgrade defensively and shows potential to be an upgrade offensively.

Finally, the catching position isn't going well. The primary catcher has a wRC+ of 62. That's less than Billy Hamilton, a better defender at his arguably more important spot, had in either 2017 or 2018 and the Reds let him go for nothing. Barnhart's contract, as paltry as it is, is the only thing preventing the team from making a change IMO. The pitching is going well because the Reds went out and got better pitchers and they've been artificially pumping them up with all these pitching changes and five inning starts and it isn't sustainable. I don't think it has much to do with Barnhart. Obviously, you think the catching position is fine and dandy, so there is no use in continuing this conversation because we have a different view of the actual facts.

[757690]

This is where you are wrong. Teams move guys around all the time to get the best players onto the roster and into the line-up. As for defense at catcher, I value it a lot, I just don't over-rate what Barnhart actually provides. He's basically an average run of the mill defender. He's easily replaced by any of a plethora of other run of the mill catchers who don't hit much. Casali isn't a downgrade defensively and shows potential to be an upgrade offensively.

Finally, the catching position isn't going well. The primary catcher has a wRC+ of 62. That's less than Billy Hamilton, a better defender at his arguably more important spot, had in either 2017 or 2018 and the Reds let him go for nothing. Barnhart's contract, as paltry as it is, is the only thing preventing the team from making a change IMO. The pitching is going well because the Reds went out and got better pitchers and they've been artificially pumping them up with all these pitching changes and five inning starts and it isn't sustainable. I don't think it has much to do with Barnhart. Obviously, you think the catching position is fine and dandy, so there is no use in continuing this conversation because we have a different view of the actual facts.

Teams don’t move a solid defensive catcher off of catching... ever. The fact there you don’t understand this explains a lot. You say you value defense at catcher, but everything else you say after that suggest otherwise.

[mth123]

Teams don’t move a solid defensive catcher off of catching... ever. The fact there you don’t understand this explains a lot. You say you value defense at catcher, but everything else you say after that suggest otherwise.

Farmer started more games at catcher than any other position in his minor league career including last year at AAA. He moved, because the others guys couldn't play anywhere else. The fact that you say you understand the value of defense at catcher and place so much value on the run of the mill defense that Barnhart provides explains a lot. He's fungible defensively and well below average offensively. The problem isn't the value being placed on defense. It's the evaluation of Barnhart's value as a defender. As I've said multiple times, he's OK. He's nothing special. Certainly nothing that would stop me from trying something else.

[757690]

Farmer started more games at catcher than any other position in his minor league career including last year at AAA. He moved, because the others guys couldn't play anywhere else. The fact that you say you understand the value of defense at catcher and place so much value on the run of the mill defense that Barnhart provides explains a lot. He's fungible defensively and well below average offensively. The problem isn't the value being placed on defense. It's the evaluation of Barnhart's value as a defender. As I've said multiple times, he's OK. He's nothing special. Certainly nothing that would stop me from trying something else.

1. Again, if the Dodgers thought Farmer could be a regular catcher, he would be their regular catcher right now. They had no one to fill that roll this off season.

2. I present evidence after evidence of Barnhart being an above average defender, and you just say you don’t believe it. I haven’t even brought up thar he won a Gold Glove. But yeah, keep up your narrative of him being a run of the mill defense.

[mth123]

1. Again, if the Dodgers thought Farmer could be a regular catcher, he would be their regular catcher right now. They had no one to fill that roll this off season.

2. I present evidence after evidence of Barnhart being an above average defender, and you just say you don’t believe it. I haven’t even brought up thar he won a Gold Glove. But yeah, keep up your narrative of him being a run of the mill defense.

What evidence is that again? 2017 he was a whopping 1.8 Runs above average for a full season. Last year he was 8.1 runs below average. This year, he's 3.7 runs above average. His framing numbers are terrible. His DRS was negative last year and so far this year, He did win a gold glove a few years ago. Doesn't mean much to me. Rafael Palmerio won one year when he only played 9 games in the field. I'm not big on the accuracy of defensive stats, but my eyes tell me the same thing. He's OK. Not terrible. Not exceptional. Not anything worth making him a fixture. I think you're going on reputation alone. Guys who can't hit get talked up for their defense and it enhances their reputation. I think it's what's going on here.