Morosi: Reds buyers for controllable hitter at deadline

[TRF]

lol that’s dumb

He's OPS'ing .851 this year. He's accumulated 2.9 bWAR this year. He's won a GG. He'll win more. Earliest FA is 2023.

I'd worship at the altar of dumb for that. BTW, as an aside, Minnesota is in 1st place and have the second best record in baseball. He's probably one of the many reasons why.

Trammell has a .699 OPS in the Southern League. Vlad has been a dumpster fire in AAA and is pitching his way to being a depth bullpen guy. India has good in a pitcher's league, but he's been outhit by his own teammate Stuart Fairchild.

None of those guys are guaranteed. None are a Juan Soto, an Acuna, or a Tatis. They just are not. Buxton was in the minor leagues, and except for his hiccup last year, has improved every year in the major leagues. Buxton is legit. Trammell is a mirage.

[Tom Servo]

Trammell is a mirage.

Come on. What is this vendetta you have against the kids? First it was Winker, then Senzel, and now Trammell too.

[Wonderful Monds]

Is it though?

Buxton is looking really good.

At this point that trade is really Tramm and India for Buxton. Vlad is a complete nothing, will likely never even reach the majors, and if he does it will be as a middle reliever. Tramm fell on his face at AA, is showing no power, and can’t play CF. India is blocked.

I think the twins would say no, and I am not convinced they would have ever said yes.

TRF nailed this one, give credit where credit is due.

He’s having a great season, but he basically had nowhere near the value that he does now. Trading both of those guys when we would’ve been outbidding ourselves for no reason would’ve been an insane overpay. I can see how maybe trading India would’ve been justified before the season, but not Trammell, and definitely not both of them in the same deal.

[TRF]

Buxton was a .230/.285/.387 hitter going into this season. And that wasn't a small sample size, it was 1000 PAs. He's been good so far this year, we'll see what happens the rest of the way.

I know you're throwing in the towel on Trammell with the first sign of struggle but that's not how the rest of baseball operates. Also not sure how being 'blocked' effects India's value.

I never got the fascination with Trammell. A power hitter that doesn't hit for power. He'll have more K's than hits this year, and he'll approach 130 K's. He looked good at the lower level where his athleticism could overpower weaker talent. But he's faltering against more skilled talent. He'll get every chance to succeed, and he might do that. Players grow for a variety of reasons. But the Reds should have sold high.

As for India, him being blocked isn't an issue for me. It's that he's just a really good prospect. And really good prospects are what you deal to get superstars. Buxton is in the midst of a breakout season, and this is after he already had that two years ago. (GG, 5.9 WAR season)

What I want is for the Reds to have a superstar. Votto is getting old, but he fits that wish. I'm not sure where the Reds get said next superstar, but somehow I doubt he's in the organization today.

[TRF]

He’s having a great season, but he basically had nowhere near the value that he does now. Trading both of those guys when we would’ve been outbidding ourselves for no reason would’ve been an insane overpay. I can see how maybe trading India would’ve been justified before the season, but not Trammell, and definitely not both of them in the same deal.

It's not an overpay if you know what you are getting and know what you are giving up.

Put it this way, in March, maybe the Twins take that offer. Today? No way. So what's changed? All the players are the same. Perceived value isn't actual value. Trammell has perceived value because some sheets say he's baseball's # whatever prospect. But is he? Buxton was the #1 overall prospect 2 years in a row, has a GG and is only 25. And he's hitting.

I don't know that the Reds could have gotten him. But CLE was reportedly willing to do Kluber straight up for Trammell, so maybe.

eh, it's moot anyway. it played out the way it did, with no serious thought on the Reds or Twins part on a deal. But he's the type of player the Reds need. In fact, I'd like it if they had three of him.

[Tom Servo]

I never got the fascination with Trammell. A power hitter that doesn't hit for power. He'll have more K's than hits this year, and he'll approach 130 K's. He looked good at the lower level where his athleticism could overpower weaker talent. But he's faltering against more skilled talent. He'll get every chance to succeed, and he might do that. Players grow for a variety of reasons. But the Reds should have sold high.

As for India, him being blocked isn't an issue for me. It's that he's just a really good prospect. And really good prospects are what you deal to get superstars. Buxton is in the midst of a breakout season, and this is after he already had that two years ago. (GG, 5.9 WAR season)

What I want is for the Reds to have a superstar. Votto is getting old, but he fits that wish. I'm not sure where the Reds get said next superstar, but somehow I doubt he's in the organization today.

I was never opposed to trading Trammell, and thought India was a goner for sure and would have been fine with that. But I'd have traded the two of them for someone I was confident could hit, not Byron Buxton.

[bottom_feeder]

Come on. What is this vendetta you have against the kids? First it was Winker, then Senzel, and now Trammell too.

Ok, Tom. TRF doesn't have a vendetta against these guys.
How is pointing out that Trammel is struggling this year and putting him in a message board deal a vendetta?

I don't know his history on Winker, but Winker has been a disappointment so far compared to the expectations of most on this board. That does not mean he's a flop. He could improve. I have no vendetta against him.

You complain about the quality of the board, yet you made an inflammatory post for no reason.
Just doing my job of keeping you on the straight and narrow.

[NebraskaRed]

Ok, Tom. TRF doesn't have a vendetta against these guys.
How is pointing out that Trammel is struggling this year and putting him in a message board deal a vendetta?

I don't know his history on Winker, but Winker has been a disappointment so far compared to the expectations of most on this board. That does not mean he's a flop. He could improve. I have no vendetta against him.

You complain about the quality of the board, yet you made an inflammatory post for no reason.
Just doing my job of keeping you on the straight and narrow.

Winker had a great 2018 before injury. He had a bad start to this season, but he's hitting much better lately.

He's also 25.

How people can be disappointed so soon into someone's career, I don't understand.

[RustyJ]

Put it this way, in March, maybe the Twins take that offer. Today? No way. So what's changed? All the players are the same. Perceived value isn't actual value. Trammell has perceived value because some sheets say he's baseball's # whatever prospect. But is he? Buxton was the #1 overall prospect 2 years in a row, has a GG and is only 25. And he's hitting.

Why are you ultra skeptical about Trammell’s perceived talent level, but were blindly optimistic about Buxton because he was a a good prospect? Buxton wasn’t proving much of anything when you were advocating all this. This is incredibly inconsistent and a lame slam dunk based on 200 at bats.

[JCM11]

Winker had a great 2018 before injury. He had a bad start to this season, but he's hitting much better lately.

He's also 25.

How people can be disappointed so soon into someone's career, I don't understand.

I wouldn't call a -0.1 WAR a great year. He had a great month and a half after being pretty dreadful up until that point. This year he's shown improvement on defense, but he still has negative value there. His abysmal numbers vs LHP are a disappointment, and the BAIP is way down from last year I would guess mostly due to the shift.

[NebraskaRed]

I wouldn't call a -0.1 WAR a great year. He had a great month and a half after being pretty dreadful up until that point. This year he's shown improvement on defense, but he still has negative value there. His abysmal numbers vs LHP are a disappointment, and the BAIP is way down from last year I would guess mostly due to the shift.

Okay so, he had a great month and a half before being injured. So that's June and July? And you're saying he was "pretty dreadful" for April and May? I completely disagree with that characterization.

My point was that people writing him off and being disappointed by him so early in his career is ridiculous.

[JCM11]

Okay so, he had a great month and a half before being injured. So that's June and July? And you're saying he was "pretty dreadful" for April and May? I completely disagree with that characterization.

My point was that people writing him off and being disappointed by him so early in his career is ridiculous.

Winker had a .678 ops at the end of May last year and was playing horrendous defense. I think his WAR was -1.9 before he started hitting which was right at the bottom of all of MLB. He looks good lately so hopefully it carries over for the rest of the season. I would still be disappointed if he ends up as a platoon player going forward.

[Tom Servo]

Ok, Tom. TRF doesn't have a vendetta against these guys.
How is pointing out that Trammel is struggling this year and putting him in a message board deal a vendetta?

I don't know his history on Winker, but Winker has been a disappointment so far compared to the expectations of most on this board. That does not mean he's a flop. He could improve. I have no vendetta against him.

You complain about the quality of the board, yet you made an inflammatory post for no reason.
Just doing my job of keeping you on the straight and narrow.

Hey REDREAD, TRF has not been exactly shy about his distaste for both Winker and Senzel. He was #TeamSchebler all the way, and that seemed to entail running down Winker and insisting Senzel was not ready for the big leagues.

Remember when you said Winker was on the verge of falling out of the league last spring?

[WrongVerb]

Winker had a great 2018 before injury. He had a bad start to this season, but he's hitting much better lately.

He's also 25.

How people can be disappointed so soon into someone's career, I don't understand.

To illustrate your point:

Split	G	GS	PA	AB	R	H	2B	3B	HR	RBI	SB	CS	BB	SO	BA	OBP	SLG	OPS
2019 Totals	71	59	255	227	36	57	10	1	12	25	0	1	23	44	.251	.333	.463	.796
Last 7 days	5	3	16	12	4	3	0	1	0	0	0	0	3	5	.250	.438	.417	.854
Last 14 days	11	6	34	29	6	11	1	1	2	7	0	0	4	7	.379	.471	.690	1.160
Last 28 days	19	14	60	51	7	15	2	1	2	7	0	0	7	10	.294	.400	.490	.890
Last 365days	91	77	329	290	48	83	16	1	14	39	0	1	34	53	.286	.371	.493	.864

I think people become disenchanted because they internalize the Reds' announcers' criticisms of said players without looking deeper into what they're being told.

[TRF]

Come on. What is this vendetta you have against the kids? First it was Winker, then Senzel, and now Trammell too.

I'd say this doesn't warrant a response, but that's the easy way out. Plus it actually does.

I was really high on Josiah Gray. Love that the Reds have Fidel Castro. There is some parts of the farm I like, but when I look closely at Trammell, I see a guy with physical gifts and no skills. At least not yet. Senzel had a known/unknown medical issue that spanned more than one year. Vertigo isn't a disease, it's a symptom. Now because of HIPPA we may never know the underlying cause, and the Reds believe it has been addressed. But even the Reds own announcers are not completely in the loop as was evident when he left the game due to a headache. It took the Reds 3-4 innings to get back to the announce team which referenced the vertigo. As for Winker, once he transitions to 1B, I'll like him more. But he's a brutal defender. Right now he's Ryan Braun. Today's Ryan Braun with no PED's and 35 years old.

So lets get this cleared up. I have no vendetta against "the kids". But if I like a player in a trade or am critical of a player, lately I get trashed on here. I like Aquino, and think he could be Puig's replacement. Aquino is a power hitter that actually hits for power, unlike Trammell. Yet. But no, because the Reds dropped the former 6th best prospect in the system from the 40 man, what he is doing is somehow smoke and mirrors.

And just because I like the former overall top prospect in all of baseball two years running that already has a 5.9 WAR season and a gold glove better than Trammell, doesn't mean i have a vendetta against him. It just means I have eyes. Buxton is the better player, and was the better prospect. It's not even particularly close.

My issue with Senzel was health and something that was not even his fault, the stupid way the Reds handled him. He's adequate in CF, but still has a lot to learn. It was my opinion then that he should have been groomed to be Scooter's replacement, but ownership loves Scooter.

Have I, ONCE clamored for any kind of aging vet player? In my history of posting here, when I am not enamored of a player I state why. It has nothing to do with age, usually. Mostly it is because of poor development/results in the minor leagues (Drew Stubbs) or because I believe a player has an underlying flaw that prevents them from adding value. That's my issue with Haniger. He is injury prone. For whatever reason, he's got issues staying on the field. And he'll be 30 next year. So not thrilled with that.

But here is what I don't get...

That'd be done in a heartbeat if I were in charge

You'd trade that for a 29 year old player in an injury season that frankly is a slightly above average player when healthy, but you balk at Matt Kemp, Trammell, India and Gutierrez for Buxton? ( I remembered Kemp was in my original proposal, before they signed Cruz. )

huh?

Because if I were in charge That'd been done the day of the Dodgers trade.