Votto - HOF?

[foster15]

Not if there’s no runners on base to drive in

Well, then Votto can't get a walk if the pitcher doesn't throw 4 pitches out of the strike zone either.

[Ron Madden]

Good Grief, I give up

[RiverfrontRed]

And you would be wrong. Clearly some hitters have more or less opportunities that isn't even debatable.

There is an all things being equal factor involved. And a guy who plays 15 years in the middle of the lineup is going to get opportunities to drive runs home. So, no, I'm not wrong.

[Big Klu]

Not if there’s no runners on base to drive in

If he wanted the RBI badly enough, he would hit a home run.

[BernieCarbo]

Am I missing something? Wasn't this question asked in response to "the RBI is a stat of opportunity"? Well, a player has control over whether he drives in a run too same way as taking a walk.

A guy who bats leadoff will have far fewer RBIs than a worse hitter who is batting fifth but has many more opportunities to drive in runs.

If you want to make RBIs a valid argument, then at least look at what percentage of runners that each player drove in based on opportunity.

[redsrule2500]

I think he’s definitely worthy. There are many excellent reasons for a player to be in the HOF besides numbers. Being a major part of one the greatest teams in baseball history is one of them.

I couldn't disagree with this more. What do you think the HOF is supposed to be?!

[RiverfrontRed]

Lack of RBI's based on batting order and limited opportunity should NOT be held against a player. But that does not mean that a player should not be given credit for delivering when given more opportunities.

[Benihana]

Votto should be in IMO. Probably not right away but eventually. I think of him similar to an Eddie Murray type.

Definitely belongs in if Perez got in. The only stain Votto has is he never won a playoff series, let alone a World Series.

[757690]

I couldn't disagree with this more. What do you think the HOF is supposed to be?!

A museum

[foster15]

A guy who bats leadoff will have far fewer RBIs than a worse hitter who is batting fifth but has many more opportunities to drive in runs.

If you want to make RBIs a valid argument, then at least look at what percentage of runners that each player drove in based on opportunity.

Of course. Players have different roles. Perez' role was to drive in runs. You measure leadoff hitters by the amount of runs scored(at least partially).

One other thing about Perez. He's known as one of the greatest off-speed hitters in baseball history. That fact alone makes him a very valuable player and a reason the BRM excelled. Bench, May, Foster, Morgan etc... were known more as being fastball hitters. Perez balance them out. A pitcher with a great fastball had to worry about the others more. A pitcher that made his living with the junk, had to worry about Perez more. Balance is what made the BRM a great team.

[Sea Ray]

Of course. Players have different roles. Perez' role was to drive in runs. You measure leadoff hitters by the amount of runs scored(at least partially).

One other thing about Perez. He's known as one of the greatest off-speed hitters in baseball history. That fact alone makes him a very valuable player and a reason the BRM excelled. Bench, May, Foster, Morgan etc... were known more as being fastball hitters. Perez balance them out. A pitcher with a great fastball had to worry about the others more. A pitcher that made his living with the junk, had to worry about Perez more. Balance is what made the BRM a great team.

Off speed hitter? Good thing no one told Bill Lee. If he'd had not thrown Tony a blooper in game 7, we might not have won that World Series. That and Perez' game winning HR in an All Star game help his case

[foster15]

Off speed hitter? Good thing no one told Bill Lee. If he'd had not thrown Tony a blooper in game 7, we might not have won that World Series. That and Perez' game winning HR in an All Star game help his case

Sure it helped his case. But not as much as his reputation among his peers and managers of his day that he's the player you want up there when a run needs driven in. Perez was known for his clutch hitting throughout his career. And his 1600 plus RBI confirms that. And again, the only players not in the HOF with that many RBI are the ones being punished by the voters for PED use and those not eligible yet.

[BernieCarbo]

Of course. Players have different roles. Perez' role was to drive in runs.

And the point is that if Votto had played instead of Perez, Votto would have been more valuable and would have driven in more runs.

[foster15]

And the point is that if Votto had played instead of Perez, Votto would have been more valuable and would have driven in more runs.

Sorry, Perez fit the BRM and winning came to fruition. All we know about Votto is he has been the big fish in a little pond and gets walked a lot for it. The BRM had their on base players(Rose, Morgan, Griffey) and they had their speed(Morgan, Griffey, Concepcion and Geronimo) and they had their power(Perez, Bench and Foster). They had great fielding at all positions other than 3rd base. Votto wouldn't have added to any need. What he would've been was a player that changed from year to year that you couldn't figure the right role for him. Yes, he had a couple years of power, a lot of high OBPs and such. But the only thing Votto ever led the league in was OBP and walks(which obviously go hand in hand). We had Rose and Morgan for that. Votto would never have produced the power numbers that Perez did back then. Power numbers have gone up for a reason in today's game.

And then let's talk chemistry. Perez is known as the glue that held the BRM together. Do you really think anything Votto could provide would make up for that plus Perez' offensive numbers? Another thing, Perez played 3rd base during the first season the BRM made it to the World Series. If we had Votto and May instead of Perez and May, guess what, only one of them plays.

[jojo]

Good Grief, I give up

There is no failure, only feedback-unless you choose to quit.