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Thread: India promoted to AA

  1. #61
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    Re: India promoted to AA

    Quote Originally Posted by TRF View Post
    ok a, why is the first line a question? and B, it pretty much made sense to everyone who looked at things objectively.

    He has NOT shown in each of the past 4 years anything but he was a good hitting prospect with no power in college. He belted a combined 8 HR's in college in 707 PA's. India hit 31 in 818 PA's.

    So right off the bat we know one guy has power, one does not.

    Madrigal's NCAA numbers: .361 .422 .502 .923
    India's NCAA numbers: .310 .411 .530 .941

    Madrigal has a bit better hit tool, India more power. Similar OBP with a slight edge to Madrigal. Overall, India has the better numbers.

    So lets shift to pro ball. It's an easy apples to apple comparison. These guys are the same age drafted the same year.

    Madrigal Career minors numbers: .307 .368 .396 .765
    India Career minors numbers: .250 .359 .409 .768

    Lets face it, the OPS difference is too nominal to even debate, so lets look at the components instead. India's numbers are less prone to slump than Madrigal. Madrigal needs the hits to get on base where India's BB/9 shows he know what not to swing at.

    Lets switch to 2019 only then, to see if the differences continue in their most recent numbers.

    Madrigal 2 levels, A+ AA: .308 .375 .418 .793
    India 2 levels, A+ AA: .254 .349 .398 .747

    Madrigal has the edge here for two reasons: He was aggressively promoted out of the Carolina League into the SL, where India was developing longer in the pitcher friendly FSL. His sample in AA is only 7 games, 31 PA's. So he's still getting his feet wet at that level and he's struggling a bit.

    Neither guy being promoted when they were was anything more than organizational philosophy. The Reds, historically, do not rush prospects. I cannot say I have any idea what the White Sox do.

    I don't think it is anywhere near clear cut that Madrigal has out performed India. He's got 20 fewer minor league career PA's and 31 more hits. That's good. But he has 38 career BB's to India's 70. He's got 3 career HR's to India's 14.

    Going forward, two guys, the same age and experience. Both from top baseball conferences in college. And the numbers posted as professionals to date, I'd take India over Madrigal.

    One last thing. Ken Griffey Jr. was a generational talent. Mike Trout is one.

    Nick Madrigal couldn't carry their jocks. And you know it.
    I'm a Jonathan India fan, but I don't know that it's fair to say India and Madrigal are comparable. Madrigal has been dynamite in AA (.881 OPS, 160 wRC+) in a substantial amount of time (172 PA). India just arrived in AA. Their A+ stats aren't all that comparable either, as Madrigal played in the Carolina League and India the notorious FSL.

    While Madrigal isn't a generational player by any stretch of the imagination, he's a pretty unique player in that he has a really high floor. He's a sure-fire major league player. Whether he ever reaches an all star game seems up in the air. India, on the other hand, has a lot of promising skills, though no standout. As I've mentioned on the board, I'm bullish on India, but he's yet to demonstrate that he's going to hit at the major league level. He's got more pop than Madrigal and that gives him some more ceiling, but I'm not ready to put heavy money on India doing anything more than getting a cup of coffee at this point. Madrigal's going to get, at the very least, a season or two to prove he's a starter. India's yet to show he can handle the biggest step in the minors, the AA-jump.

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  4. #62
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    Re: India promoted to AA

    Madrigal is better than India. He was in college and still is. His hit tool is too good and some power will come. If you need India to be better than him, you’re going to be disappointed.

  5. #63
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    Re: India promoted to AA

    NM

  6. #64
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    Re: India promoted to AA

    Who cares, the Reds never had a chance to take him anyway.

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  8. #65
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    Re: India promoted to AA

    This is from another thread, but it belongs here.

    Quote Originally Posted by TRF View Post
    On India, he had the 23rd best OPS in the FSL this year, and tied for the 5th most HR's. It's not a standout performance, but the FSL screws with SLG. Kid can take a walk that's for sure. His BB rate in AA is more than fine. I think he's a guy that will do better as the pitching improves.
    The bolded part is my primary issue with India. You get taken 5th overall, then I want a standout performance, especially out of the gate. The game gets harder at higher levels.

    Also, I'm not sure his walks are a good thing. In a vacuum, walks are great. Don't swing at bad pitches, get on base. I'm down with all of that and have been for decades. Yet in the lower minors there's a lot of pitchers with control issues. They'll walk you if you let them. And that's fine if India were hitting for average or notable power. Then we could say he's making them pay when they come into the zone against him. Unfortunately, with a .254 BA and .398 SLG for the season entering today (.250 and .409 for his career) we can't say that. The walks are propping up otherwise mediocre numbers, not enhancing a more complete offensive game. He needs to achieve something with his bat.
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  10. #66
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    Re: India promoted to AA

    Yeah to this point India has done Just Enough. It's obviously good that he hasn't crapped out but he hasn't thrived either or shown himself to be a top shelf talent either.

    The low batting average across levels reminds me of Ervin, which isn't a great sign.
    I dont care, Votto said of passing his friend and former teammate. Hes in the past. Bye-bye, Jay.

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  12. #67
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    Re: India promoted to AA

    Quote Originally Posted by M2 View Post
    This is from another thread, but it belongs here.



    The bolded part is my primary issue with India. You get taken 5th overall, then I want a standout performance, especially out of the gate. The game gets harder at higher levels.

    Also, I'm not sure his walks are a good thing. In a vacuum, walks are great. Don't swing at bad pitches, get on base. I'm down with all of that and have been for decades. Yet in the lower minors there's a lot of pitchers with control issues. They'll walk you if you let them. And that's fine if India were hitting for average or notable power. Then we could say he's making them pay when they come into the zone against him. Unfortunately, with a .254 BA and .398 SLG for the season entering today (.250 and .409 for his career) we can't say that. The walks are propping up otherwise mediocre numbers, not enhancing a more complete offensive game. He needs to achieve something with his bat.
    Exactly. Walks are the icing, not the cake.
    "All I can tell them is pick a good one and sock it." --BABE RUTH

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  14. #68
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    Re: India promoted to AA

    Quote Originally Posted by RedTeamGo! View Post
    No, when I watch him he looks like an infielder playing CF. Probably because he’s an infielder playing CF.
    major league baseball is replete with infielders turned centerfielders, and always has been. you writing off senzel after a few months of playing center is foolish, imo.

    if kyle schwarber can play left field, senzel absolutely can play center. once he gets a full year under his belt, i bet he will be at least above average defensively in center. the kid is a very good athlete.

  15. #69
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    Re: India promoted to AA

    Quote Originally Posted by mth123 View Post
    Exactly. Walks are the icing, not the cake.
    Cake without icing is just sweet bread. That's ok I guess, but India also has a power profile too. Again, not a great power profile, but it at least exists. So icing and maybe some sprinkles.

    India's likely future is probably fringe starter/utility guy right now. Maybe he starts showing improvement in AA, better pitching often means more pitching in the hittable zone. Prior to this year, Madrigal and India produced just about the same MILB OPS. India's A+ this year came in a much tougher hitting environment. IMO the Reds kept him in A+ a bit too long.

    The narrative that Madrigal is some generational talent is just so unbelievably laughable. Offensively all Madrigal is, is batting average. And that's fine. Madrigal in Class A Advanced, 298 AB's .284 .349 .367 .716 in the Sally League. India, same Level FSL: .256 .346 .410 .756

    I don't know what the hitting environment is in the SAL League, I do know the FSL absolutely saps power. Madrigal's career MILB OPS is buoyed by a hot 2 months in AA. It's great for him, and people can buy in all they want. I'd like to point out that at a year younger, Billy Hamilton had a better year than both these guys playing at the same two levels. So perspective on both is warranted.
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    Re: India promoted to AA

    Quote Originally Posted by TRF View Post
    Cake without icing is just sweet bread. That's ok I guess, but India also has a power profile too. Again, not a great power profile, but it at least exists. So icing and maybe some sprinkles.

    India's likely future is probably fringe starter/utility guy right now. Maybe he starts showing improvement in AA, better pitching often means more pitching in the hittable zone. Prior to this year, Madrigal and India produced just about the same MILB OPS. India's A+ this year came in a much tougher hitting environment. IMO the Reds kept him in A+ a bit too long.

    The narrative that Madrigal is some generational talent is just so unbelievably laughable. Offensively all Madrigal is, is batting average. And that's fine. Madrigal in Class A Advanced, 298 AB's .284 .349 .367 .716 in the Sally League. India, same Level FSL: .256 .346 .410 .756

    I don't know what the hitting environment is in the SAL League, I do know the FSL absolutely saps power. Madrigal's career MILB OPS is buoyed by a hot 2 months in AA. It's great for him, and people can buy in all they want. I'd like to point out that at a year younger, Billy Hamilton had a better year than both these guys playing at the same two levels. So perspective on both is warranted.
    I don’t disagree with much of this, Madrigal is def not a generational talent, but I will say, that hit tool on Madrigal is way more likely to transfer to the majors than India’s plate discipline, or walks. If he doesn’t hit for more average better pitchers will simply attack him more.
    My dream for India was to become a Rendon lite type guy: maybe 280 as opposed to Rendons 300 with maybe a little less power and maybe a little more athleticism. I am disappointed that he doesn’t seem to have many multi hit games. Maybe he should get a little more aggressive? I really can’t comment much on that because I’m not seeing his games live

  17. #71
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    Re: India promoted to AA

    No analysis of Madrigal is complete without noting he broke his hand early his Junior season. The injury temporarily robbed him of some power, as most hand and wrist injuries do. I can’t help but notice his performance is getting better the further in time he gets from the injury.

    Comparing him to Billy Hamilton is laughable.

  18. #72
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    Re: India promoted to AA

    Quote Originally Posted by NC Reds View Post
    No analysis of Madrigal is complete without noting he broke his hand early his Junior season. The injury temporarily robbed him of some power, as most hand and wrist injuries do. I can’t help but notice his performance is getting better the further in time he gets from the injury.

    Comparing him to Billy Hamilton is laughable.
    Tell me why. Hamilton outperformed him at the same levels a year younger. Not just a little, but by a significant margin. So tell me what makes Madrigal special in the way that Hamilton was not. And do it in the context of their ages at that level, and not looking backwards with Hamilton's MLB production coloring your view.

    Billy Hamilton stole 155 bases that year. At age 21. He drew 86 walks, 159 hits in 512 AB's. He had an .830 OPS with only 2 HR's. So please tell me how a younger, faster, more athletic player in Billy Hamilton is a laughable comparison to Madrigal, who has yet to produce at that level.
    Use a Cocktail Stick!

  19. #73
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    Re: India promoted to AA

    Madrigal may or may not be a good Billy Hamilton comp, but right now, India is hitting like Hamilton at AA:

    .214/.371/.214/.586
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  20. #74
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    Re: India promoted to AA

    Quote Originally Posted by 757690 View Post
    Madrigal may or may not be a good Billy Hamilton comp, but right now, India is hitting like Hamilton at AA:

    .214/.371/.214/.586
    The Reds would have been doing back flips in the owners box if Hamilton had a .371 OBP. And he's played like 3 games soo.

  21. #75
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    Re: India promoted to AA

    Quote Originally Posted by TRF View Post
    Tell me why. Hamilton outperformed him at the same levels a year younger. Not just a little, but by a significant margin. So tell me what makes Madrigal special in the way that Hamilton was not. And do it in the context of their ages at that level, and not looking backwards with Hamilton's MLB production coloring your view.

    Billy Hamilton stole 155 bases that year. At age 21. He drew 86 walks, 159 hits in 512 AB's. He had an .830 OPS with only 2 HR's. So please tell me how a younger, faster, more athletic player in Billy Hamilton is a laughable comparison to Madrigal, who has yet to produce at that level.
    Have you ever actually watched Nick Madrigal play?

    Madrigal has absurd bat-to-ball skills and outstanding strike zone discipline. Hamilton never really did (453 whiffs in 2026 minor league AB's). Hamilton's minor league numbers were enhanced by playing in Bakersfield. Kyle Waldrop looked like a future star from playing there.

    That's your difference.


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