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Thread: Time to blow it up!

  1. #181
    Posting in Dynarama M2's Avatar
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    Re: Time to blow it up!

    Quote Originally Posted by Falls City Beer View Post
    Or it’s just flailing.
    It's hit-or-miss. I prefer it to the never swing model of recent years. Whether they'll be any good at it, can't say. It's different. I'm for different. Certainly no one else is occupying that lane.

    It's not a terribly altered modus operandi from the Bob Quinn/early JimBo years. Those were high churn teams. Can they find a Bip Roberts or Ron Gant?
    Friends don't let friends fWAR.

    Coddle thy pitchers.

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  4. #182
    Posting in Dynarama M2's Avatar
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    Re: Time to blow it up!

    Quote Originally Posted by Kinsm View Post
    Trading away 1st and 2nd round draft picks for 1 year rentals is not a market inefficiency, it's idiotic is what it is.
    They're not all keepers. Would I preferred them to have to land a Yelich? Sure, but I'm willing to embrace the chaos if they are.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kinsm View Post
    Finnegan and Stephenson were not supposed to fill in the back of the rotation, they were supposed to the 2019 Reds #1 and #2.
    Best laid plans, which is kind of the point. If you accept the the notion that the future (at least the one we pretend to know) is a lie, it opens you up to do a much wider array of things in the present. The Reds thought they had this whole rebuild thing down, and they didn't. I can't blame them for jumping tracks.
    Friends don't let friends fWAR.

    Coddle thy pitchers.

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  6. #183
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    Re: Time to blow it up!

    Quote Originally Posted by foster15 View Post
    Since Catcher and SS are normally weak hitting positions, anything we get above average there is gravy. Aquino, Senzel, Ervin and Votto can certainly be average or better. Van Meter hasn't been terrible in his first MLB experience and could/should improve.

    Yes, offensively they is nothing to be terribly excited about, but I believe offenses are easier to manipulate than pitching staffs and this team needs to make their pitching staff as good as possible and then work secondarily on offense.

    If the Reds had a great starting 8 but their pitching was below average, we would still be in 70 win category with no clear way to get out of it. But if their pitching was great from top to bottom, and their batting was costing them wins, it would be much more of a probability to fix those problems during or after the season. Reds were mid pack in 2018 when it came to offense and have dropped quickly in one season. They could just as quickly rise back in one season.

    I'm a firm believer that pitching is the most important thing you can have on a baseball team these days and once you have that, you then make easier moves to increase your offense.
    I believe in pitching as well, but good teams need pitching, offense, defense and bullpen. This team is 12th in runs scored. I can't emphasize how horrible that is for a team playing their home games at GABP. They achieved that modest output with the combined production of Puig and Aquino in RF (likely not repeatable). Career years from Suarez and Iglesias (neither likely to be repated though Suarez will still certainly be good). Any drop will lower the Reds from that starting point. Senzel is hurt and a real question mark now. Time is marching n for Votto. Second base is not very good, but it's likely to take a step back because they won't have the hot start from dietrich again. LF may be able to produce, but beyond that, I'm seeing this year's offense as a high water mark that this group of players won't be able to match. They need three or four guys who aren't just good for the traditionally weak offensive positions they play, but better than league average in general.
    "All I can tell them is pick a good one and sock it." --BABE RUTH

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  8. #184
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    Re: Time to blow it up!

    Quote Originally Posted by Tony Cloninger View Post

    I still think the Teds development staff is very average at best.

    Luckily we don’t need to develop many Teds.



    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

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  10. #185
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    Re: Time to blow it up!

    Quote Originally Posted by PuffyPig View Post
    Luckily we don’t need to develop many Teds.
    Attachment 15286
    “We’re going to get the pitching.” -Bob Castellini
    “You got the pitching, now what?” - Reds fans

  11. #186
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    Re: Time to blow it up!

    Quote Originally Posted by PuffyPig View Post
    Luckily we don’t need to develop many Teds.



    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
    I’m more into the Mod look than the Ted look anyways.

  12. #187
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    Re: Time to blow it up!

    The front office needs a house cleaning. The farm is a mess and the mlb team is not good.

    This team just jumped up it payroll, turned over its coaching staff and made several major trades. All we got was just marginally better on the field.

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  14. #188
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    Re: Time to blow it up!

    Quote Originally Posted by MM83 View Post
    They are controlled for a bargain for 6 years at the mlb level.
    If they make it. As I stated in a recent discussion on this same subject matter - Fans assign far greater value to prospects and it's all based on an unknown quality ... potential. And some seem to assign a greater value to that potential, that'll somehow lead to success at the pro level. And that carrying the label "top prospect" somehow stamps them with "Do Not Trade" - I do not.

    Prospects are commodities. And all commodities are not created equally. Example. At the time of the LA trade last off-season Downs and Gray, both referred to as "top prospects", were playing in single A Dayton and the Rookie League (respectively). They were both got called up to AA Tulsa around mid-season.

    Our CFer (Senzel) was one of the top ranked prospects in all of MLB. He excelled in the farms. Yet as we come to the conclusion of this season, and that he hasn't lived up to fan's expectations of him, many are now questioning whether he's going to live up to his billing? Winker was a top ranked prospect too. Yet many are questioning whether he's the answer in LF.

    Are those fans that are lamenting the loss of TT celebrating the acquisition of the A's #7 top prospect in OFer Hannah (for Roark)? TT was invaluable, but Hannah was downplayed as a so-so acquisition who may or may not make it. Go figure.

    Fans complained about the loss of P Moss to Cleveland. Yet he's 24 yrs old, has had more then his share of struggles (control) in the minors. But the bottom-line is he's a tier 4 prospect, which means ....players who have the potential of making the majors, or have high likelihood of making the majors but providing minimal impact (e.g. middle reliever, low-ceiling UT guys).

    And we got some former "top prospects" on this team (like J. Iglesias and Peraza) who never lived up to their billing.

    Show me a World Series winner whose team was primarily built from their farm system? Who didn't also use those "assets" to also add established players to fill needs, strengthen their team, to get them to that place they're currently at?

    Your farm system has a two-fold purpose IMO. There's gold, and then there's fool's gold.
    Last edited by GAC; 09-15-2019 at 03:57 AM.
    "In my day you had musicians who experimented with drugs. Now it's druggies experimenting with music" - Alfred G Clark (circa 1972)

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    Re: Time to blow it up!

    This isn’t even controversial

    90-95 loss teams can’t trade their top prospects for short term rentals that will add a few wins.

    It’s basic math and logic. The ppl saying otherwise are trolling

  17. #190
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    Re: Time to blow it up!

    Quote Originally Posted by MM83 View Post
    This isn’t even controversial

    90-95 loss teams can’t trade their top prospects for short term rentals that will add a few wins.

    It’s basic math and logic. The ppl saying otherwise are trolling
    You seem nice.

    No, they are not. This team went 90-95 losses for four years holding onto "prospects" and acquiring "prospects". That way was proven to be a 90-95 loss approach. And if they did nothing and stayed the course with those "prospects" they lose 90-95 again. That's because NOT EVERY PROSPECT is good. Or even most of them. Hopefully a few are. The good teams churn prospects and add talent. For year (four years actually) they refused to try. This year they tried. Because the Reds appear to be cursed (and perhaps the Cincinnati curse and what not) the churn will leave them in roughly the same place. You posit that they are worse off because they don't have, in essence Downs and Jeter. Perhaps. Perhaps THOSE were the two who would actually come through the system smoothly and be amazing. But history says that was unlikely. For whatever reason, this team doesn't develop players like, say, the Dodgers do. Hell, look to Trammell, who also was starting to accelerate backwards in terms of prospect status in this organization.

    In any event, they tried something different, and with respect to W/L record, it didn't get much better. That is genuinely sucky. But that doesn't mean the effort should not have been made. In my opinion.
    Last edited by membengal; 09-15-2019 at 09:32 AM.
    Well, that's what those words mean. He was here. If they don't keep him, he will have been lost/subtracted. I headed out the door today with two shoes on my feet. If I don't return with them, I have lost them. If I do return with them, I haven't added them. ---M2

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  19. #191
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    Re: Time to blow it up!

    Quote Originally Posted by membengal View Post
    You seem nice.

    No, they are not. This team went 90-95 losses for four years holding onto "prospects" and acquiring "prospects". That way was proven to be a 90-95 loss approach. And if they did nothing and stayed the course with those "prospects" they lose 90-95 again. That's because NOT EVERY PROSPECT is good. Or even most of them. Hopefully a few are. The good teams churn prospects and add talent. For year (four years actually) they refused to try. This year they tried. Because the Reds appear to be cursed (and perhaps the Cincinnati curse and what not) the churn will leave them in roughly the same place. You posit that they are worse off because they don't have, in essence Downs and Jeter. Perhaps. Perhaps THOSE were the two who would actually come through the system smoothly and be amazing. But history says that was unlikely. For whatever reason, this team doesn't develop players like, say, the Dodgers do.

    In any event, they tried something different, and with respect to W/L record, it didn't get much better. That is genuinely sucky. But that doesn't mean the effort should not have been made. In my opinion.
    You are delusional if you think this years reds was mlb equivalent of ‘trying’

    Being stupid isn’t commendable. You’re trying too hard

  20. #192
    Member membengal's Avatar
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    Re: Time to blow it up!

    Quote Originally Posted by MM83 View Post
    You are delusional if you think this years reds was mlb equivalent of ‘trying’

    Being stupid isn’t commendable. You’re trying too hard
    Good interaction. I predict your banning (or re-banning I suspect) will be imminent. In the meantime, to the ignores with you. The funny part was you accusing members who have been here for almost two decades of "trolling" when you are putting up a transparent masterclass in same. Have a good one.
    Well, that's what those words mean. He was here. If they don't keep him, he will have been lost/subtracted. I headed out the door today with two shoes on my feet. If I don't return with them, I have lost them. If I do return with them, I haven't added them. ---M2

  21. #193
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    Re: Time to blow it up!

    [QUOTE=membengal;4018403]Good interaction. I predict your banning (or re-banning I suspect) will be imminent. In the meantime, to the ignores with you. The funny part was you accusing members who have been here for almost two decades of "trolling" when you are putting up a transparent masterclass in same. Have a good

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by membengal View Post
    Good interaction. I predict your banning (or re-banning I suspect) will be imminent. In the meantime, to the ignores with you. The funny part was you accusing members who have been here for almost two decades of "trolling" when you are putting up a transparent masterclass in same. Have a good one.
    Why would I get banned? I joined last week.

    Once again. Really bad teams can’t trade their best prospects for short term rentals.

    This isn’t mean or controversial. It’s just the way it is. You should be mad at the reds. Not me
    Last edited by MM83; 09-15-2019 at 09:47 AM.

  22. #194
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    Re: Time to blow it up!

    There seem to be two camps on how to build the Reds. But the Reds, for better or worse, apparently have chosen their path for now. It’s a mixture of acquiring veterans and continuing to focus on prospects. It does not maximize either approach: good prospects have been traded, there are limits on veteran acquisitions.

    As far back as 2013 - when Ludwick was not replaced after injury - the Reds have avoided big ticket MLB acquisitions. That is, until this past off-season, and then the response was muted because they focused on trading Bailey.

    It’s an advance that Reds have now begun to sign or trade for upper echelon veterans. They aren’t neglecting the farm, they have modernized, hired top notch coaches. I can’t fault the approach, particularly with the pressure to keep the fans interested.

    At the end of the day the big question is not the specific approach to building - it’s talent evaluation, looking forward not backward. On this, the Reds need to improve, I think that’s a universally held view, and IMO it’s where the focus should be going forward.
    Last edited by Kc61; 09-15-2019 at 09:55 AM.

  23. #195
    Member Sea Ray's Avatar
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    Re: Time to blow it up!

    Quote Originally Posted by M2 View Post
    It's hit-or-miss. I prefer it to the never swing model of recent years. Whether they'll be any good at it, can't say. It's different. I'm for different. Certainly no one else is occupying that lane.

    It's not a terribly altered modus operandi from the Bob Quinn/early JimBo years. Those were high churn teams. Can they find a Bip Roberts or Ron Gant?
    I think this is why so many Reds fans here are not critical of trades that severely weakened the farm system. Simply put: folks around here love trades. It gives 'em something to think about and ponder.

    I'm not that way. I don't give 'em a pass in the mode of "at least they're trying...it's hit or miss...our prospects never amount to anything anyway...on and on" Of course I was never on the Votto+Cueto for Eric Bedard bandwagon either.


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