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Thread: Dave Parker on HOF ballot

  1. #31
    breath westofyou's Avatar
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    Re: Dave Parker on HOF ballot

    Quote Originally Posted by M2 View Post
    Also one of the least deserving players on this ballot. I don't have a problem if he makes it, but then we better be prepared to have serious consideration for Kenny Lofton, Andruw Jones, Jim Edmonds, Willie Davis, Jim Wynn, Vada Pinson, Cesar Cedeno, Chet Lemon, Johnny Damon, Fred Lynn, Bernie Williams, Brett Butler and Devon White.
    Dale's 1982-1987 years were good, OPS+ 145 .289/.382/.531

    Essentially for six years he was what Al Kaline was from 1955-1972 OPS+ 140 .302/.384/.497

    And that is why Kaline was a first ballot guy and Murphy is his generations Dolph Camilli

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  4. #32
    Posting in Dynarama M2's Avatar
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    Re: Dave Parker on HOF ballot

    Quote Originally Posted by westofyou View Post
    Dale's 1982-1987 years were good, OPS+ 145 .289/.382/.531

    Essentially for six years he was what Al Kaline was from 1955-1972 OPS+ 140 .302/.384/.497

    And that is why Kaline was a first ballot guy and Murphy is his generations Dolph Camilli
    Murphy and Mattingly are classic examples of a great prime and a forgettable everything else. It's a weird effect, because that prime stands out for those that saw it, but for those that didn't it probably looks like not enough to make the Hall.
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  6. #33
    TyrannoSuarez Wrecks WrongVerb's Avatar
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    Re: Dave Parker on HOF ballot

    Watched a lot of Murphy on TBS back in the day. You never ever threw him the same pitch twice. The second one would be a rocket somewhere.

    I have his autograph so I'm a bit selfish in wanting him to get in. But yeah, his peak was great but everything else, not so much.
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    Re: Dave Parker on HOF ballot

    Quote Originally Posted by M2 View Post
    Murphy and Mattingly are classic examples of a great prime and a forgettable everything else. It's a weird effect, because that prime stands out for those that saw it, but for those that didn't it probably looks like not enough to make the Hall.
    How long does a "prime" have to last to get in the Hall? 6 years was certainly enough for Sandy Koufax. The difference is he retired in his prime while the others took the long downhill fall. I'd argue that even though their skills diminished after their prime, they were much more productive than Koufax was sitting in his living room.

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  9. #35
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    Re: Dave Parker on HOF ballot

    These are the questions I used to love arguing about. But now, who really cares about the Hall of Fame? Harold Baines is in and Pete Rose is out. So really, who cares about the HOF anymore?

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  11. #36
    breath westofyou's Avatar
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    Re: Dave Parker on HOF ballot

    Quote Originally Posted by foster15 View Post
    How long does a "prime" have to last to get in the Hall? 6 years was certainly enough for Sandy Koufax. The difference is he retired in his prime while the others took the long downhill fall. I'd argue that even though their skills diminished after their prime, they were much more productive than Koufax was sitting in his living room.
    Murphy's Peak vs Sandy's Peak

    Code:
    1982-1987
    PLATE APPEARANCES displayed only--not a sorting criteria
    
    OPS                               DIFF     PLAYER     LEAGUE         PA   
    1    Pedro Guerrero               .200       .915       .715       3185   
    2    Mike Schmidt                 .195       .929       .734       3847   
    3    Jack Clark                   .171       .891       .720       2851   
    4    Darryl Strawberry            .168       .890       .722       2747   
    5    Dale Murphy                  .152       .913       .762       4173   
    6    Tony Gwynn                   .114       .836       .721       3270   
    7    Leon Durham                  .111       .853       .742       3222   
    8    Tim Raines                   .108       .846       .737       4125   
    9    Keith Hernandez              .099       .830       .731       3994   
    10   Bob Horner                   .088       .843       .755       2261

    Code:
    1962-1966
    
    ERA vs. the league average displayed only--not a sorting criteria
    INNINGS PITCHED displayed only--not a sorting criteria
    
    RSAA                              RSAA     ERA-LG         IP   
    1    Sandy Koufax                  194       1.27     1377     
    2    Juan Marichal                 172       1.07     1455     
    3    Bob Gibson                    131       0.87     1355     
    4    Jim Maloney                   114       0.97     1061     
    5    Don Drysdale                   84       0.49     1532     
    6    Larry Jackson                  68       0.46     1337     
    7    Chris Short                    64       0.51     1130     
    8    Bob Friend                     55       0.47     1079     
    9    Dick Ellsworth                 18       0.12     1248     
    10   Ken Johnson                    10       0.09     1086.1
    Sandy also was in three World Series in his peak

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    Re: Dave Parker on HOF ballot

    Quote Originally Posted by westofyou View Post
    Murphy's Peak vs Sandy's Peak

    Code:
    1982-1987
    PLATE APPEARANCES displayed only--not a sorting criteria
    
    OPS                               DIFF     PLAYER     LEAGUE         PA   
    1    Pedro Guerrero               .200       .915       .715       3185   
    2    Mike Schmidt                 .195       .929       .734       3847   
    3    Jack Clark                   .171       .891       .720       2851   
    4    Darryl Strawberry            .168       .890       .722       2747   
    5    Dale Murphy                  .152       .913       .762       4173   
    6    Tony Gwynn                   .114       .836       .721       3270   
    7    Leon Durham                  .111       .853       .742       3222   
    8    Tim Raines                   .108       .846       .737       4125   
    9    Keith Hernandez              .099       .830       .731       3994   
    10   Bob Horner                   .088       .843       .755       2261

    Code:
    1962-1966
    
    ERA vs. the league average displayed only--not a sorting criteria
    INNINGS PITCHED displayed only--not a sorting criteria
    
    RSAA                              RSAA     ERA-LG         IP   
    1    Sandy Koufax                  194       1.27     1377     
    2    Juan Marichal                 172       1.07     1455     
    3    Bob Gibson                    131       0.87     1355     
    4    Jim Maloney                   114       0.97     1061     
    5    Don Drysdale                   84       0.49     1532     
    6    Larry Jackson                  68       0.46     1337     
    7    Chris Short                    64       0.51     1130     
    8    Bob Friend                     55       0.47     1079     
    9    Dick Ellsworth                 18       0.12     1248     
    10   Ken Johnson                    10       0.09     1086.1
    Sandy also was in three World Series in his peak
    And I'm not arguing for Murphy to go in and I'm certainly not arguing that Koufax should be out. I'm just asking how you quantify peaks good enough to go in? I've seen people here argue that Rose shouldn't be in because his overall numbers aren't that great. But geez, if a player gives you 15 years of hall of fame production and hangs around another 9 that are pedestrian, how can you use those 9 years in your evaluation? Just because a player loves the game so much that he's willing to hang around and be no better than average should never be held against him. There's always room on rosters for mediocre players and the fact someone like Rose was willing to be that after a sparkling prime should be another argument for inclusion not against. Obviously Rose is not out of HOF because of this, just pisses me off when someone uses this to down play a shoe-in hall of fame career.

    Also, while Koufax had a lot to do with them being in the WS, being in the World series 3 times in your prime is not an argument by itself to get you in. Vida Blue was too. Marichal only pitched in one world series and that was right before his prime but I'd argue that it wasn't his fault that they never got in during his prime.
    Last edited by foster15; 11-11-2019 at 05:51 PM.

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  15. #38
    breath westofyou's Avatar
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    Re: Dave Parker on HOF ballot

    Quote Originally Posted by foster15 View Post
    And I'm not arguing for Murphy to go in and I'm certainly not arguing that Koufax should be out. I'm just asking how you quantify peaks good enough to go in? I've seen people here argue that Rose shouldn't be in because his overall numbers aren't that great. But geez, if a player gives you 15 years of hall of fame production and hangs around another 9 that are pedestrian, how can you use those 9 years in your evaluation? Just because a player loves the game so much that he's willing to hang around and be no better than average should never be held against him. There's always room on rosters for mediocre players and the fact someone like Rose was willing to be that after a sparkling prime should be another argument for inclusion not against. Obviously Rose is not out of HOF because of this, just pisses me off when someone uses this to down play a shoe-in hall of fame career.
    Pete Rose showed up at a debate about Dale Murphy's HOF argument.

    And yes, I'm not surprised

  16. #39
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    Re: Dave Parker on HOF ballot

    Quote Originally Posted by westofyou View Post
    Pete Rose showed up at a debate about Dale Murphy's HOF argument.

    And yes, I'm not surprised
    WTH, I'm not the one who started with the 6 year peak argument. What I'm saying is that you can't always use the full body of work to argue against HOF worthiness. And Pete Rose with his longevity is a good example. And if you don't like it, go root for the Astros. I also used Vida Blue and Marichal, got a problem with that?

  17. #40
    breath westofyou's Avatar
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    Re: Dave Parker on HOF ballot

    Quote Originally Posted by foster15 View Post
    WTH, I'm not the one who started with the 6 year peak argument. What I'm saying is that you can't always use the full body of work to argue against HOF worthiness. And Pete Rose with his longevity is a good example. And if you don't like it, go root for the Astros. I also used Vida Blue and Marichal, got a problem with that?
    Marichal is probably the best pitcher in the NL for the whole decade of the 1960's and Vida Blue is the Dale Murphy of AL pitchers

    There is no comparison

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    Re: Dave Parker on HOF ballot

    Quote Originally Posted by westofyou View Post
    Marichal is probably the best pitcher in the NL for the whole decade of the 1960's and Vida Blue is the Dale Murphy of AL pitchers

    There is no comparison
    You used the world series argument not me. And Marichal would never get picked as a more worthy HOFer than Koufax even if Sandy didn't pitch in a World Series. You know why? Because while Sandy only had 5 really great seasons, they were greater seasons than just about any other pitcher in MLB history. So, as my point was and still is, even after you tried to play devil's advocate and did a very poor job of it, you can't look at longevity and disregard someone and you can't look at lack of longevity and disregard somebody. Everyone's circumstance is different and a HOFer 99 percent of the time stands out as a HOFer. Koufax, Marichal and yes, even Pete Rose, had playing careers that made it obvious they were going into the HOF. No need to dissect. Once you feel the need of dissecting, you might as well give it up, that player does not belong in the HOF. And yes, lately, many have been added that dilute the greatness the HOF once was.
    Last edited by foster15; 11-11-2019 at 06:48 PM.

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    Re: Dave Parker on HOF ballot

    Quote Originally Posted by westofyou View Post
    Marichal is probably the best pitcher in the NL for the whole decade of the 1960's and Vida Blue is the Dale Murphy of AL pitchers

    There is no comparison
    You used the world series argument not me. And Marichal would never get picked as a more worthy HOFer than Koufax even if Sandy didn't pitch in a World Series. You know why? Because while Sandy only had 5 really great seasons, they were greater seasons than just about any other pitcher in MLB history. So, as my point was and still is, even after you tried to play devil's advocate and did a very poor job of it, you can't look at longevity and disregard someone and you can't look at lack of longevity and disregard somebody. Everyone's circumstance is different and a HOFer 99 percent of the time stands out as a HOFer. Koufax, Marichal and yes, even Pete Rose, had playing careers that made it obvious they were going into the HOF. No need to dissect. Once you start dissecting, you might as well give it up, that player does not belong in the HOF. And yes, lately, many have been added that dilute the greatness the HOF once was.

  20. #43
    breath westofyou's Avatar
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    Re: Dave Parker on HOF ballot

    Quote Originally Posted by foster15 View Post
    So, as my point was and still is, even after you tried to play devil's advocate and did a very poor job of it, you can't look at longevity and disregard someone and you can't look at lack of longevity and disregard somebody. .
    Ok Boomer.

  21. #44
    Posting in Dynarama M2's Avatar
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    Re: Dave Parker on HOF ballot

    Quote Originally Posted by foster15 View Post
    How long does a "prime" have to last to get in the Hall? 6 years was certainly enough for Sandy Koufax. The difference is he retired in his prime while the others took the long downhill fall. I'd argue that even though their skills diminished after their prime, they were much more productive than Koufax was sitting in his living room.
    Depends on the prime in question. Murphy had a 41.2 bWAR in his seven best seasons, which puts him a hair behind Cesar Cedeno. It's not like he was Mike Trout (65.4 WAR in his seven best seasons), who could retire today and go to Cooperstown.
    Friends don't let friends fWAR.

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  22. #45
    Member Bourgeois Zee's Avatar
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    Re: Dave Parker on HOF ballot

    Quote Originally Posted by M2 View Post
    It's not like he was Mike Trout (65.4 WAR in his seven best seasons), who could retire today and go to Cooperstown.
    Ooooh, that's a good question:

    Who else could retire today and be HOF bound, no questions asked?

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