Bobby Abreu
Josh Beckett
Heath Bell
Barry Bonds
Eric Chavez
Roger Clemens
Adam Dunn
Chone Figgins
Rafael Furcal
Jason Giambi
Todd Helton
Raul Ibanez
Derek Jeter
Andruw Jones
Jeff Kent
Paul Konerko
Cliff Lee
Carlos Pena
Brad Penny
Andy Pettitte
J.J. Putz
Manny Ramirez
Brian Roberts
Scott Rolen
Curt Schilling
Gary Sheffield
Alfonso Soriano
Sammy Sosa
Jose Valverde
Omar Vizquel
Billy Wagner
Larry Walker
I care not one whit if a player used. Teams knew. MLB knew.
Sheffield was a beast.
Dubito Ergo Cogito Ergo Sum.
RedsBaron (12-07-2019),Revering4Blue (12-06-2019)
There a lot of very good players on the list. It looks like it will be the old argument "but was he very good (Pettite or Tommy John) or HoF good" (Jeter and Walker to name 2)? I'd love it if they set an admissions record bc there are several guys I think deserve it.
99% of all numbers only tell 33% of the story so when looking at the numbers remember that numbers is plural...
44 Votes so far. Only Jeter would get in based on our votes here.
All my posts are my opinion - just like yours are. If I forget to state it and you're too dense to see the obvious, look here!
RedsRocker (12-11-2019)
I'm not sure if I've ever been less excited about potential HOFers..Perhaps there was a period before I was even born, but I have no memory of events prior to my mother giving birth to me. What can I say other than the only Reds players on these lists were mere part timers. I'm a tad partial to long term Reds players making it rather than players for other teams and Dunn was never even close to one of my favorite Reds.
Last edited by allpurpose; 12-10-2019 at 06:11 AM.
https://www.fangraphs.com/tools/hall...dsource-ballot
Above is the link to fangrahs' crowdsource ballot - so if you want to vote there too - great.
I don't feel qualified to pick and choose which players whose on-field performance merit induction should be left off because of "character". There's way too much gray and "known unknowns" about people who cheated and got away with it. So for me, if it happened, it happened. I went:
Bonds
Clemens
Jeter
Pettitte
Ramirez
Rolen
Schilling
Sheffield
Wagner
Walker
I'm not entirely comfortable giving full weight to defensive metrics prior to the current era, which elevated Sheffield over Andruw Jones.
Last edited by RedsManRick; 12-11-2019 at 11:15 PM.
Games are won on run differential -- scoring more than your opponent. Runs are runs, scored or prevented they all count the same. Worry about scoring more and allowing fewer, not which positions contribute to which side of the equation or how "consistent" you are at your current level of performance.
Almost all of our votes were the same. I completely agree about trying to be the "character police" in holding all-time greats out of the Hall.
What in your mind put Billy Wagner in over Andruw Jones? I get that Wagner is one of the best closers of all-time, but I feel like Andruw positively impacted his teams more than Wagner did.
Do people feel Andruw Jones gets too much defensive metrics love?
He’s the best OF I’ve ever seen.
Too bad he got filthy rich and lost care of keeping himself in shape or he would’ve been a no doubter.
Quick comparison to RZONE's voting from last year to this year:
PLAYER - 2019 RZ% - 2018 RZ%
Larry Walker - 69.5% - 63.0%
Barry Bonds - 66.1% - 71.4%
Roger Clemens - 64.4% - 66.3%
Curt Schilling - 62.7% - 54.4%
Manny Ramirez - 61.0% - 52.2%
Scott Rolen - 57.6% - 43.5%
Todd Helton - 39.0% - 34.8%
Sammy Sosa - 30.5% - 23.9%
Andruw Jones - 28.8% - 17.4%
Andy Pettitte - 27.1% - 12.0%
Gary Sheffield - 27.1% - 21.7%
Billy Wagner - 27.1% - 13.0%
Omar Vizquel - 25.4% - 13.0%
Jeff Kent - 20.3% - 13.0%
*2019 has had 59 voters thus far, 2018 had 92 overall voters.
It's still early but of the 14 players returning this year, all but Clemens and Bonds have seen their vote tallies jump in regards to RZ voters. Most of the jump is likely due to voters who maxed out their 10 selections last year with players who are no longer choices, i.e. MRivera, EMart, Mussina, Halladay, McGriff, and Berkman. Those votes have transferred to Jeter and the 14 returnees due too a lackluster list of new choices debuting in 2019. Aside from Jeter, only Dunn and Konerko have received more than 3 votes from RZone members as newcomers. It'll be interesting to see if that carries over to actual HOF voters too.
Ironman92 (12-12-2019)
That's one I've come around on recently. Relievers are weird. In one sense, none of the deserve to get in because their total impact pales compared to other HOF. And in a very real sense, mediocre SP who put up similar WAR are quite possibly just as talented -- just ask failed starting pitcher Mariano Rivera. That is, if every pitcher got to be a reliever, many elite relievers may find themselves outclassed by the pitchers who stayed starters.
On the other hand, it's a dedicated role that has an outsized spot in our narrative understanding of the game's history. As a museum, I think it should reflect the game as it was experienced by the fans. So long as teams had a dedicated role called closer for multiple generations, it's worth recognizing those players who did it best. Wagner was among the best relievers in MLB history, arguably top 3 if you account for leverage.
For Andruw Jones, meanwhile, it just comes down to his defensive value not fully passing the sniff test. He was an amazing defender. Incredible. But did he produce 10 wins more defensive value than any other OF in major league history? That feels excessive, unlikely. If I had an uncapped ballot, I'd probably include him. I have included him in the past. Even if you knock a good chunk off his defensive WAR, he's still right there with Sheffield in the low 60s ballpark. And even as I write this, I think I probably should include him over Wagner.
But ultimately, all this does is remind me that it's completely stupid we have an artificial limit on the number we can vote for per year instead of merely an up or down vote against the standard of the institution.
Games are won on run differential -- scoring more than your opponent. Runs are runs, scored or prevented they all count the same. Worry about scoring more and allowing fewer, not which positions contribute to which side of the equation or how "consistent" you are at your current level of performance.
*BaseClogger* (12-16-2019),M2 (12-13-2019),RedsBaron (12-13-2019)
Completely agree on the stupidity of the artificial limit, especially in years like this one where people are being held out for non-baseball reasons. I would probably include Wagner if I could have another vote or two, but I do think Andruw deserves it more.
Either way, I am surprised how many posters here are voting for such few players. This may be the most accomplished pool of players in baseball history on a HOF ballot and some posters are only voting Jeter. Crazy.
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