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View Poll Results: Make Your Selections (no more than 10)

Voters
94. You may not vote on this poll
  • Bobby Abreu

    8 8.51%
  • Josh Beckett

    1 1.06%
  • Heath Bell

    0 0%
  • Barry Bonds

    61 64.89%
  • Eric Chavez

    1 1.06%
  • Roger Clemens

    60 63.83%
  • Adam Dunn

    10 10.64%
  • Chone Figgins

    0 0%
  • Rafael Furcal

    0 0%
  • Jason Giambi

    2 2.13%
  • Todd Helton

    37 39.36%
  • Raul Ibanez

    0 0%
  • Derek Jeter

    85 90.43%
  • Andruw Jones

    25 26.60%
  • Jeff Kent

    19 20.21%
  • Paul Konerko

    8 8.51%
  • Cliff Lee

    5 5.32%
  • Carlos Pena

    0 0%
  • Brad Penny

    0 0%
  • Andy Pettitte

    27 28.72%
  • J.J. Putz

    0 0%
  • Manny Ramirez

    54 57.45%
  • Brian Roberts

    0 0%
  • Scott Rolen

    50 53.19%
  • Curt Schilling

    54 57.45%
  • Gary Sheffield

    27 28.72%
  • Alfonso Soriano

    2 2.13%
  • Sammy Sosa

    26 27.66%
  • Jose Valverde

    0 0%
  • Omar Vizquel

    19 20.21%
  • Billy Wagner

    22 23.40%
  • Larry Walker

    68 72.34%
Multiple Choice Poll.
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Thread: RedsZone's 2020 BBWAA HOF Ballot Vote

  1. #31
    Member Sea Ray's Avatar
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    Re: RedsZone's 2020 BBWAA HOF Ballot Vote

    Quote Originally Posted by Big Klu View Post
    Unless your name is Harold Baines.
    He got in the back door. We have to avoid the temptation of forever more saying "this guy gets in because Harold Baines did." A DH I thought was very worthy for a long time was Edgar Martinez

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  3. #32
    Member Sea Ray's Avatar
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    Re: RedsZone's 2020 BBWAA HOF Ballot Vote

    Quote Originally Posted by Edd Roush View Post
    Can the people who left Larry Walker off their ballot please explain? He is 28th all-time for OF in fWAR, had a .313/.400/.565 slash line, had 230 steals and played great defense. He also won the 1997 MVP, was a 6-time gold glover and was a 5-time All Star. This is his last shot to get into the Hall, what is the reason he should be left out?
    Pre-humidor Coors Field.

    .381 career BA at Coors Field 1.172 OPS That was about a third of his games.

  4. #33
    Pitter Patter TRF's Avatar
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    Re: RedsZone's 2020 BBWAA HOF Ballot Vote

    I care not one whit if a player used. Teams knew. MLB knew.

    Sheffield was a beast.
    Use a Cocktail Stick!

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  6. #34
    Moderator RedlegJake's Avatar
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    Re: RedsZone's 2020 BBWAA HOF Ballot Vote

    There a lot of very good players on the list. It looks like it will be the old argument "but was he very good (Pettite or Tommy John) or HoF good" (Jeter and Walker to name 2)? I'd love it if they set an admissions record bc there are several guys I think deserve it.
    99% of all numbers only tell 33% of the story so when looking at the numbers remember that numbers is plural...

  7. #35
    Someday Never Comes mth123's Avatar
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    Re: RedsZone's 2020 BBWAA HOF Ballot Vote

    44 Votes so far. Only Jeter would get in based on our votes here.
    "All I can tell them is pick a good one and sock it." --BABE RUTH

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  9. #36
    Member Ironman92's Avatar
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    Re: RedsZone's 2020 BBWAA HOF Ballot Vote

    Quote Originally Posted by TRF View Post
    I care not one whit if a player used. Teams knew. MLB knew.

    Sheffield was a beast.
    Him getting brushed back as a young player in San Diego and next pitch he went upper tank at Jack Murphy. It was incredible. I can never find video.

  10. #37
    Member Ironman92's Avatar
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    Re: RedsZone's 2020 BBWAA HOF Ballot Vote

    Quote Originally Posted by Edd Roush View Post
    I suppose one could call 1999 and 2000 "struggle years" for Roger Clemens. Let's suppose he didn't pitch again after those two years. He would finish 8th at that point in fWAR with 99.2 instead of #1 where he currently sits. However you slice it, he's a Hall of Famer, especially if you forgive the steroids.
    I think he used to start his regroup at Toronto

    I donít care if he makes the HOF but it was my vote.

  11. #38
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    Re: RedsZone's 2020 BBWAA HOF Ballot Vote

    I'm not sure if I've ever been less excited about potential HOFers..Perhaps there was a period before I was even born, but I have no memory of events prior to my mother giving birth to me. What can I say other than the only Reds players on these lists were mere part timers. I'm a tad partial to long term Reds players making it rather than players for other teams and Dunn was never even close to one of my favorite Reds.
    Last edited by allpurpose; 12-10-2019 at 07:11 AM.

  12. #39
    Moderator Kinsm's Avatar
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    Re: RedsZone's 2020 BBWAA HOF Ballot Vote

    https://www.fangraphs.com/tools/hall...dsource-ballot

    Above is the link to fangrahs' crowdsource ballot - so if you want to vote there too - great.

  13. #40
    Stat Wanker Hodiernus RedsManRick's Avatar
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    Re: RedsZone's 2020 BBWAA HOF Ballot Vote

    I don't feel qualified to pick and choose which players whose on-field performance merit induction should be left off because of "character". There's way too much gray and "known unknowns" about people who cheated and got away with it. So for me, if it happened, it happened. I went:

    Bonds
    Clemens
    Jeter
    Pettitte
    Ramirez
    Rolen
    Schilling
    Sheffield
    Wagner
    Walker

    I'm not entirely comfortable giving full weight to defensive metrics prior to the current era, which elevated Sheffield over Andruw Jones.
    Last edited by RedsManRick; 12-12-2019 at 12:15 AM.
    Games are won on run differential -- scoring more than your opponent. Runs are runs, scored or prevented they all count the same. Worry about scoring more and allowing fewer, not which positions contribute to which side of the equation or how "consistent" you are at your current level of performance.

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  15. #41
    Two-Time Batting Champ Edd Roush's Avatar
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    Re: RedsZone's 2020 BBWAA HOF Ballot Vote

    Quote Originally Posted by RedsManRick View Post
    I don't feel qualified to pick and choose which players whose on-field performance merit induction should be left off because of "character". There's way too much gray and "known unknowns" about people who cheated and got away with it. So for me, if it happened, it happened. I went:

    Bonds
    Clemens
    Jeter
    Pettitte
    Ramirez
    Rolen
    Schilling
    Sheffield
    Wagner
    Walker

    I'm not entirely comfortable giving full weight to defensive metrics prior to the current era, which elevated Sheffield over Andruw Jones.
    Almost all of our votes were the same. I completely agree about trying to be the "character police" in holding all-time greats out of the Hall.

    What in your mind put Billy Wagner in over Andruw Jones? I get that Wagner is one of the best closers of all-time, but I feel like Andruw positively impacted his teams more than Wagner did.

  16. #42
    Member Ironman92's Avatar
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    Re: RedsZone's 2020 BBWAA HOF Ballot Vote

    Do people feel Andruw Jones gets too much defensive metrics love?

    Heís the best OF Iíve ever seen.

    Too bad he got filthy rich and lost care of keeping himself in shape or he wouldíve been a no doubter.

  17. #43
    Moderator Kinsm's Avatar
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    Re: RedsZone's 2020 BBWAA HOF Ballot Vote

    Quick comparison to RZONE's voting from last year to this year:

    PLAYER - 2019 RZ% - 2018 RZ%
    Larry Walker - 69.5% - 63.0%
    Barry Bonds - 66.1% - 71.4%
    Roger Clemens - 64.4% - 66.3%
    Curt Schilling - 62.7% - 54.4%
    Manny Ramirez - 61.0% - 52.2%
    Scott Rolen - 57.6% - 43.5%
    Todd Helton - 39.0% - 34.8%
    Sammy Sosa - 30.5% - 23.9%
    Andruw Jones - 28.8% - 17.4%
    Andy Pettitte - 27.1% - 12.0%
    Gary Sheffield - 27.1% - 21.7%
    Billy Wagner - 27.1% - 13.0%
    Omar Vizquel - 25.4% - 13.0%
    Jeff Kent - 20.3% - 13.0%

    *2019 has had 59 voters thus far, 2018 had 92 overall voters.

    It's still early but of the 14 players returning this year, all but Clemens and Bonds have seen their vote tallies jump in regards to RZ voters. Most of the jump is likely due to voters who maxed out their 10 selections last year with players who are no longer choices, i.e. MRivera, EMart, Mussina, Halladay, McGriff, and Berkman. Those votes have transferred to Jeter and the 14 returnees due too a lackluster list of new choices debuting in 2019. Aside from Jeter, only Dunn and Konerko have received more than 3 votes from RZone members as newcomers. It'll be interesting to see if that carries over to actual HOF voters too.

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  19. #44
    Stat Wanker Hodiernus RedsManRick's Avatar
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    Re: RedsZone's 2020 BBWAA HOF Ballot Vote

    Quote Originally Posted by Edd Roush View Post
    Almost all of our votes were the same. I completely agree about trying to be the "character police" in holding all-time greats out of the Hall.

    What in your mind put Billy Wagner in over Andruw Jones? I get that Wagner is one of the best closers of all-time, but I feel like Andruw positively impacted his teams more than Wagner did.
    That's one I've come around on recently. Relievers are weird. In one sense, none of the deserve to get in because their total impact pales compared to other HOF. And in a very real sense, mediocre SP who put up similar WAR are quite possibly just as talented -- just ask failed starting pitcher Mariano Rivera. That is, if every pitcher got to be a reliever, many elite relievers may find themselves outclassed by the pitchers who stayed starters.

    On the other hand, it's a dedicated role that has an outsized spot in our narrative understanding of the game's history. As a museum, I think it should reflect the game as it was experienced by the fans. So long as teams had a dedicated role called closer for multiple generations, it's worth recognizing those players who did it best. Wagner was among the best relievers in MLB history, arguably top 3 if you account for leverage.

    For Andruw Jones, meanwhile, it just comes down to his defensive value not fully passing the sniff test. He was an amazing defender. Incredible. But did he produce 10 wins more defensive value than any other OF in major league history? That feels excessive, unlikely. If I had an uncapped ballot, I'd probably include him. I have included him in the past. Even if you knock a good chunk off his defensive WAR, he's still right there with Sheffield in the low 60s ballpark. And even as I write this, I think I probably should include him over Wagner.

    But ultimately, all this does is remind me that it's completely stupid we have an artificial limit on the number we can vote for per year instead of merely an up or down vote against the standard of the institution.
    Games are won on run differential -- scoring more than your opponent. Runs are runs, scored or prevented they all count the same. Worry about scoring more and allowing fewer, not which positions contribute to which side of the equation or how "consistent" you are at your current level of performance.

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  21. #45
    Two-Time Batting Champ Edd Roush's Avatar
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    Re: RedsZone's 2020 BBWAA HOF Ballot Vote

    Quote Originally Posted by RedsManRick View Post
    That's one I've come around on recently. Relievers are weird. In one sense, none of the deserve to get in because their total impact pales compared to other HOF. And in a very real sense, mediocre SP who put up similar WAR are quite possibly just as talented -- just ask failed starting pitcher Mariano Rivera. That is, if every pitcher got to be a reliever, many elite relievers may find themselves outclassed by the pitchers who stayed starters.

    On the other hand, it's a dedicated role that has an outsized spot in our narrative understanding of the game's history. As a museum, I think it should reflect the game as it was experienced by the fans. So long as teams had a dedicated role called closer for multiple generations, it's worth recognizing those players who did it best. Wagner was among the best relievers in MLB history, arguably top 3 if you account for leverage.

    For Andruw Jones, meanwhile, it just comes down to his defensive value not fully passing the sniff test. He was an amazing defender. Incredible. But did he produce 10 wins more defensive value than any other OF in major league history? That feels excessive, unlikely. If I had an uncapped ballot, I'd probably include him. I have included him in the past. Even if you knock a good chunk off his defensive WAR, he's still right there with Sheffield in the low 60s ballpark. And even as I write this, I think I probably should include him over Wagner.

    But ultimately, all this does is remind me that it's completely stupid we have an artificial limit on the number we can vote for per year instead of merely an up or down vote against the standard of the institution.
    Completely agree on the stupidity of the artificial limit, especially in years like this one where people are being held out for non-baseball reasons. I would probably include Wagner if I could have another vote or two, but I do think Andruw deserves it more.

    Either way, I am surprised how many posters here are voting for such few players. This may be the most accomplished pool of players in baseball history on a HOF ballot and some posters are only voting Jeter. Crazy.


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