Turn Off Ads?

View Poll Results: Make Your Selections (no more than 10)

Voters
94. You may not vote on this poll
  • Bobby Abreu

    8 8.51%
  • Josh Beckett

    1 1.06%
  • Heath Bell

    0 0%
  • Barry Bonds

    61 64.89%
  • Eric Chavez

    1 1.06%
  • Roger Clemens

    60 63.83%
  • Adam Dunn

    10 10.64%
  • Chone Figgins

    0 0%
  • Rafael Furcal

    0 0%
  • Jason Giambi

    2 2.13%
  • Todd Helton

    37 39.36%
  • Raul Ibanez

    0 0%
  • Derek Jeter

    85 90.43%
  • Andruw Jones

    25 26.60%
  • Jeff Kent

    19 20.21%
  • Paul Konerko

    8 8.51%
  • Cliff Lee

    5 5.32%
  • Carlos Pena

    0 0%
  • Brad Penny

    0 0%
  • Andy Pettitte

    27 28.72%
  • J.J. Putz

    0 0%
  • Manny Ramirez

    54 57.45%
  • Brian Roberts

    0 0%
  • Scott Rolen

    50 53.19%
  • Curt Schilling

    54 57.45%
  • Gary Sheffield

    27 28.72%
  • Alfonso Soriano

    2 2.13%
  • Sammy Sosa

    26 27.66%
  • Jose Valverde

    0 0%
  • Omar Vizquel

    19 20.21%
  • Billy Wagner

    22 23.40%
  • Larry Walker

    68 72.34%
Multiple Choice Poll.
Page 6 of 7 FirstFirst ... 234567 LastLast
Results 76 to 90 of 94

Thread: RedsZone's 2020 BBWAA HOF Ballot Vote

  1. #76
    Member Kinsm's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2017
    Posts
    5,778

    Re: RedsZone's 2020 BBWAA HOF Ballot Vote

    Abreu carried a career .400 OBP through his first 9,000+ PA's.

    He ranks 81st all time in runs (15th as a RF'er), 107th all time in hits (22nd as a RF'er), 25th all time in doubles (4th as a RF'er), 20th all time in walks (4th as a RF'er), 88th all time in total bases, 49th all time in times on base, 89th all time in rbi's (21st as a RF'er), 74th all time in stolen bases (7th as a RF'er), 52nd all time in runs created, 12th all time in RF putouts, 24th all time in RF assists.

    His 60.0 career bWAR ranks 19th all time amongst RF'ers, 14 of the 18 ahead of him are in the HOF, 2 failed to make it, another 1 is on the ballot, and 1 is banned.

    He's a borderline HOF'er.

    Had he not been playing during the same era as some of the most juiced ballplayers in the history of the sport his numbers would look even better.

  2. Likes:

    Ron Madden (01-24-2020)


  3. Turn Off Ads?
  4. #77
    Big Red Machine RedsBaron's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2000
    Location
    Out Wayne
    Posts
    24,134

    Re: RedsZone's 2020 BBWAA HOF Ballot Vote

    Quote Originally Posted by Sea Ray View Post
    That's not surprising. You voted for Bobby Abreu who got 5.5% of the sportswriter's vote. He's not even worth discussing as a Hall of Famer. If you think he's worthy of a vote this year then you're exhibit A to support my statement "there aren't that many deserving candidates, particularly this year."
    Sure did. As was pointed out Abreu had 60.0 career WAR [Joey Votto has 60.2 career WAR and his HOF qualifications at least get consideration here].
    I never regarded Abreu as a HOF player while he was active, but after reviewing his stats I included him in my vote this year on this site's poll. I looked at his WAR, a couple of 30-30 HR/SB seasons, something like 8 100 RBI seasons, a high OBP. I guarantee that if Abreu had that career in a Reds uniform most posters here would advocate his induction into the Hall of Fame.
    I realize some people like to advocate for a "small Hall" approach for induction while others are a "large Hall" contingent. I look at HOF qualifications in part by reviewing the 80 year history of HOF voting. I'm not going to favor inducting everyone who is as good as Freddie Lindstorm or Pop Haines or some other crony of Frankie Frisch, but if a player had a career as good as a number of others already in the Hall, especially if some of those players inducted were contemporaries of the player at issue, then yes I'll give that player consideration. That's one reason why I think its nuts for Curt Schilling not to be in the HOF (yet) while John Smoltz went in easily; they either should both be in or neither should be.
    "Hey...Dad. Wanna Have A Catch?" Kevin Costner in "Field Of Dreams."

  5. Likes:

    Ron Madden (01-24-2020)

  6. #78
    Member Sea Ray's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Cincinnati, Ohio
    Posts
    26,019

    Re: RedsZone's 2020 BBWAA HOF Ballot Vote

    Quote Originally Posted by tripleaaaron View Post
    Not even worth discussing? Apparently you need to re-examine his stats. I’m not saying he is a sure thing but he is on the fence. Your statement on Abreu is more an indication that you sit in the past than it is that we are exhibit A of what’s wrong with current voters.
    I'm with 95% of the voters on this one. If you want to argue that the 5% are smarter than the 95, go for it

  7. #79
    Member Sea Ray's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Cincinnati, Ohio
    Posts
    26,019

    Re: RedsZone's 2020 BBWAA HOF Ballot Vote

    Quote Originally Posted by RedsManRick View Post
    In a world where Jim Rice & Harold Baines are HOFers, Bobby Abreu 100% deserves consideration.

    I understand it. But I think that for those of us who grew up with AVG/HR/RBI, we still intuitively fail to account for the importance OBP.

    And just because it's interesting, Abreu is one of 14 guys in MLB history with a .390+ OBP and 400+ SB.

    He's not a HOFer. But he's in that group of guys who had surprisingly productive careers.
    He's not a HoFer. He's in that category of "if Harold Baines is in then so is my guy..."

  8. #80
    Member Sea Ray's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Cincinnati, Ohio
    Posts
    26,019

    Re: RedsZone's 2020 BBWAA HOF Ballot Vote

    Quote Originally Posted by RedsBaron View Post
    Sure did. As was pointed out Abreu had 60.0 career WAR [Joey Votto has 60.2 career WAR and his HOF qualifications at least get consideration here].
    I never regarded Abreu as a HOF player while he was active, but after reviewing his stats I included him in my vote this year on this site's poll. I looked at his WAR, a couple of 30-30 HR/SB seasons, something like 8 100 RBI seasons, a high OBP. I guarantee that if Abreu had that career in a Reds uniform most posters here would advocate his induction into the Hall of Fame.
    I realize some people like to advocate for a "small Hall" approach for induction while others are a "large Hall" contingent. I look at HOF qualifications in part by reviewing the 80 year history of HOF voting. I'm not going to favor inducting everyone who is as good as Freddie Lindstorm or Pop Haines or some other crony of Frankie Frisch, but if a player had a career as good as a number of others already in the Hall, especially if some of those players inducted were contemporaries of the player at issue, then yes I'll give that player consideration. That's one reason why I think its nuts for Curt Schilling not to be in the HOF (yet) while John Smoltz went in easily; they either should both be in or neither should be.
    Bobby Abreu belongs in the Hall of Very Good. To me Hall of Famers need to be recognized as one of the best at some point in their career. He peaked at #12 in the MVP voting; had only two All Star game selections, only once as a starter.

    As for Reds fans, ten of them gave Adam Dunn votes. Enough said...

  9. #81
    Big Red Machine RedsBaron's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2000
    Location
    Out Wayne
    Posts
    24,134

    Re: RedsZone's 2020 BBWAA HOF Ballot Vote

    Quote Originally Posted by Sea Ray View Post
    Bobby Abreu belongs in the Hall of Very Good. To me Hall of Famers need to be recognized as one of the best at some point in their career. He peaked at #12 in the MVP voting; had only two All Star game selections, only once as a starter.

    As for Reds fans, ten of them gave Adam Dunn votes. Enough said...
    You didn't vote for Larry Walker either, who ranks 10th all time in JAWS and is in the top dozen or so in WAR (72.7), ahead of, among others, Tony Gwynn and Dave Winfield, both in the HOF. Walker and Abreu both rank ahead in career WAR of many other right fielders already in the HOF: Vladimir Guerrero, Enos Slaughter, Willie Keeler, Harry Hooper, Kiki Cuyler, Chuck Klein, King Kelly, Sam Thompson, Ross Youngs and the immortal Harold Baines, who had 38.7 career WAR ranking 75th all time among right fielders.
    If Larry Walker doesn't belong in the HOF, then Duke Snider arguably should be shown the door, as The Duke only had 66.3 career WAR.
    "Hey...Dad. Wanna Have A Catch?" Kevin Costner in "Field Of Dreams."

  10. Likes:

    M2 (01-25-2020)

  11. #82
    Pitter Patter TRF's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2000
    Location
    Letterkenny
    Posts
    21,911

    Re: RedsZone's 2020 BBWAA HOF Ballot Vote

    SeaRay, I'm curious. Make your case against Bonds, Clemens, Sosa, Sheffield and Andruw Jones. I'm going to guess PED allegations for several. Jones had no such stigma applied to him though. Why is Andruw Jones not a HOF to you?
    Dubito Ergo Cogito Ergo Sum.

  12. #83
    Member kaldaniels's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Posts
    17,849

    Re: RedsZone's 2020 BBWAA HOF Ballot Vote

    Quote Originally Posted by TRF View Post
    SeaRay, I'm curious. Make your case against Bonds, Clemens, Sosa, Sheffield and Andruw Jones. I'm going to guess PED allegations for several. Jones had no such stigma applied to him though. Why is Andruw Jones not a HOF to you?
    https://blogs.fangraphs.com/jaws-and...-andruw-jones/

    A good Andruw Jones HOF primer for all...pretty down the middle with no conclusion one way or another.

  13. Likes:

    TRF (01-24-2020)

  14. #84
    Member Sea Ray's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Cincinnati, Ohio
    Posts
    26,019

    Re: RedsZone's 2020 BBWAA HOF Ballot Vote

    Quote Originally Posted by RedsBaron View Post
    You didn't vote for Larry Walker either, who ranks 10th all time in JAWS and is in the top dozen or so in WAR (72.7), ahead of, among others, Tony Gwynn and Dave Winfield, both in the HOF. Walker and Abreu both rank ahead in career WAR of many other right fielders already in the HOF: Vladimir Guerrero, Enos Slaughter, Willie Keeler, Harry Hooper, Kiki Cuyler, Chuck Klein, King Kelly, Sam Thompson, Ross Youngs and the immortal Harold Baines, who had 38.7 career WAR ranking 75th all time among right fielders.
    If Larry Walker doesn't belong in the HOF, then Duke Snider arguably should be shown the door, as The Duke only had 66.3 career WAR.
    Sure didn't. I don't think Larry Walker belongs. He played at Coors Field before the humidor and all. So I judged him on his road stats. They weren't HoF worthy.

  15. #85
    Member Sea Ray's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Cincinnati, Ohio
    Posts
    26,019

    Re: RedsZone's 2020 BBWAA HOF Ballot Vote

    Quote Originally Posted by TRF View Post
    SeaRay, I'm curious. Make your case against Bonds, Clemens, Sosa, Sheffield and Andruw Jones. I'm going to guess PED allegations for several. Jones had no such stigma applied to him though. Why is Andruw Jones not a HOF to you?
    Bonds, Clemens and Sosa are all PED users and belligerent ones at that. Sheffield and Jones are borderline. Close calls for sure but not quite there IMO.

  16. #86
    Member Rdirtypirates's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2019
    Posts
    1,141

    Re: RedsZone's 2020 BBWAA HOF Ballot Vote

    Quote Originally Posted by Sea Ray View Post
    Sure didn't. I don't think Larry Walker belongs. He played at Coors Field before the humidor and all. So I judged him on his road stats. They weren't HoF worthy.
    If the humidor made that big of a difference, why is he the first Rockie to get in the hall of fame? Look at his numbers with Montreal and St Louis, they are nearly as good.

  17. #87
    Posting in Dynarama M2's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2000
    Location
    Boston
    Posts
    45,733

    Re: RedsZone's 2020 BBWAA HOF Ballot Vote

    Quote Originally Posted by kaldaniels View Post
    https://blogs.fangraphs.com/jaws-and...-andruw-jones/

    A good Andruw Jones HOF primer for all...pretty down the middle with no conclusion one way or another.
    My hesitance on Jones is I'm reluctant to throw in behind behind a guy based on defensive stat value. Jones ranks 49th in oWAR. So you've got to believe in a current system of defensive valuation and that Jones is by far the best CF ever to play. Without that he's not even in the discussion. And I just can't get there.
    I'm not a system player. I am a system.

  18. Likes:

    RedsBaron (01-25-2020)

  19. #88
    Member Sea Ray's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Cincinnati, Ohio
    Posts
    26,019

    Re: RedsZone's 2020 BBWAA HOF Ballot Vote

    Quote Originally Posted by Rdirtypirates View Post
    If the humidor made that big of a difference, why is he the first Rockie to get in the hall of fame? Look at his numbers with Montreal and St Louis, they are nearly as good.
    He got in 'cause 75% of the writers were willing to overlook the Coors effect. His numbers were significantly better in a Rocky uniform. That's where he had 6 OPS seasons over 1.000. He had no OPS seasons over 1.000 in St Louis or Montreal. None

  20. #89
    Member Rdirtypirates's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2019
    Posts
    1,141

    Re: RedsZone's 2020 BBWAA HOF Ballot Vote

    Quote Originally Posted by Sea Ray View Post
    He got in 'cause 75% of the writers were willing to overlook the Coors effect. His numbers were significantly better in a Rocky uniform. That's where he had 6 OPS seasons over 1.000. He had no OPS seasons over 1.000 in St Louis or Montreal. None
    You realize there are other stats besides OPS. His last year in Montreal it was .981. His first two years in Colorado it was .988 and low .900 second year, then his ops exploded. But look at OPS+ and other peripheral stats and they were similar. Not too mention he always was great defensively.

  21. #90
    Member Sea Ray's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Cincinnati, Ohio
    Posts
    26,019

    Re: RedsZone's 2020 BBWAA HOF Ballot Vote

    Quote Originally Posted by Rdirtypirates View Post
    You realize there are other stats besides OPS. His last year in Montreal it was .981. His first two years in Colorado it was .988 and low .900 second year, then his ops exploded. But look at OPS+ and other peripheral stats and they were similar. Not too mention he always was great defensively.
    Of course there are stats other than OPS. If you want to discuss other ones, have at it. Here you've chosen to bring up OPS+ in Colorado was 147. Montreal was 128. I think that's a significant difference. If his road stats were Hall of Fame worthy he'd get my vote. For his career, his road OPS was .865. If you don't like OPS, fine. Pick a stat. They were worse across the board on the road


Turn Off Ads?

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Board Moderators may, at their discretion and judgment, delete and/or edit any messages that violate any of the following guidelines: 1. Explicit references to alleged illegal or unlawful acts. 2. Graphic sexual descriptions. 3. Racial or ethnic slurs. 4. Use of edgy language (including masked profanity). 5. Direct personal attacks, flames, fights, trolling, baiting, name-calling, general nuisance, excessive player criticism or anything along those lines. 6. Posting spam. 7. Each person may have only one user account. It is fine to be critical here - that's what this board is for. But let's not beat a subject or a player to death, please.

Thank you, and most importantly, enjoy yourselves!


RedsZone.com is a privately owned website and is not affiliated with the Cincinnati Reds or Major League Baseball


Contact us: Boss | Gallen5862 | Plus Plus | Powel Crosley | RedlegJake | The Operator