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Thread: Computer Plate Umps Allowed in New Labor Deal

  1. #31
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    Re: Computer Plate Umps Allowed in New Labor Deal

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeS21 View Post
    What will really be fun is the first time the automatic strike zone disagrees with Joey Votto.
    For sure. It's definitely not going to totally end the arguing. I'm sure that there will be times batters and/or catchers will accuse the umpire of not calling what the machine says.

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  3. #32
    Moderator The Operator's Avatar
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    Re: Computer Plate Umps Allowed in New Labor Deal

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeS21 View Post
    I agree with wanting the human element. I am going to miss those arguments over balls/strikes calls where players get ejected and teams are forced to change their strategy because players get tossed. It has always been a part of the game and I will miss it.
    Mike I agree with you pretty regularly but I cannot get on board with that. Seeing game outcomes affected and players literally removed from the game by petulant umpires who think they’re the reason people buy tickets was never part of baseball’s charm, at least not to me.


    I mean, imagine being a math teacher.

    You’re teaching children basic arithmetic and at the very moment you tell a child “3 plus 3 equals 6”, the head of the school board walks by and says “umm, no - three plus three equals seven”.

    You respond “with all due respect, no, it equals six.”


    Head of the school board then has you removed from the classroom and recommends that you be docked pay.


    In front of the school board, you point out that the technology exists to prove that you were correct and numerous parents in the school district object. They state that teachers being removed from the classroom and children underperforming on their standardized testing has always been one of their cherished parts of the education system. They enjoy the ensuing controversy and did not want to see calculators brought into their school system. They like seeing teachers lose pay and have to argue their case against the board.


    I really don’t think there’s much of a difference.
    Last edited by The Operator; 12-24-2019 at 02:34 PM.
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  5. #33
    Be the ball Roy Tucker's Avatar
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    Re: Computer Plate Umps Allowed in New Labor Deal

    In other news, the Houston Astros are looking to hire computer hackers.
    Big John's been drinking since the river took Emmylou

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  7. #34
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    Re: Computer Plate Umps Allowed in New Labor Deal

    I have a feeling once it becomes the norm we'll see quite a few more walked in runs and a lot more grand slams. Heck, we might see 54-55 (or more) games. For YEARS pitchers have nibbled around the edges of the strike zone and I don't see that changing unless there's a HUGE uptick in walks issued. Most people like to see bases loaded when it's your team, but not the other team and if you have a reliever who nibbles the plate look out.. I'm gonna go ahead and predict a on of records broke which will only inflate salaries that much more. The batter lucky enough to come to bat with bases loaded may just break the grand slam records by the dozens and it could make all previous records make players of the past look like a bunch of first graders playing ball in the street.
    Then again I may be entirely full of...well...you know.. That would be a first. I've been full of well you know for a long time..
    Last edited by allpurpose; 12-26-2019 at 10:41 AM.

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  9. #35
    Baseball means warmth Joeyjection19's Avatar
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    Re: Computer Plate Umps Allowed in New Labor Deal

    Quote Originally Posted by Norm Chortleton View Post
    Feels like I've posted something similar 100 times.

    They will either have to:

    1. change the current definition of the top and bottom of the strike zone
    2. or still rely on the human element; in the form of some tech guy instead of an ump
    Except that's not true at all given modern technology. You of all people know the rule book. Do you really think that a computer with a 4K camera can't identify the hollow beneath the kneecaps, or at least make a better approximation than 99% of humans? And no one is saying that the human element must be given up completely - there's still a home plate ump and, in the unlikely event that the computer messes up, they can fix it.

    Is it a problem that someone has to program the strike zone in the first place? Because then your issue is more likely with the current rule book than with the computer. And even if you have to be somewhat more precise in the rule book, how is that a bad thing? The rules of baseball change yearly.

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  11. #36
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    Re: Computer Plate Umps Allowed in New Labor Deal

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Sheed View Post
    Robot umps will be a dagger in the heart of baseball. Maybe not "the" dagger, but it will be "a" dagger.

    Even things like instant replay in baseball... It just doesn't seem right.

    Why does baseball have to be perfect?
    You like umpire egos dictating games? That kind of imperfect is ok?

  12. #37
    Someday Never Comes mth123's Avatar
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    Re: Computer Plate Umps Allowed in New Labor Deal

    Bring on the robo umps. While we're at it, an ump should be in the replay booth reviewing and correcting every call. If getting the best look at the play is the core of making the right call, the replay booth is the best look the overwhelming majority of the time (same is true of a camera's view of the strike zone versus the umpire) . It could be done quickly and if it isn't an obvious error in 30 seconds, the call stands.

    I think these types of replays would eliminate the replays that are hurting the game. Things like the technicalities that sees a guy called out because he comes off the bag for a fraction of a second or the plays on whether a guy got a clear path to home plate or not. Ability to steal a call with an extended frame by frame replay is not the intent of replay and that misuse is why most people hate it.

    Eliminate the manager challenge. If you want to keep it, you could call it "the in depth" challenge which allows a more detailed review beyond the 30 second look the ump in the booth would have, but I'd be in favor of eliminating it completely. It's not strategy, its BS.
    "All I can tell them is pick a good one and sock it." --BABE RUTH

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  14. #38
    Member Norm Chortleton's Avatar
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    Re: Computer Plate Umps Allowed in New Labor Deal

    Quote Originally Posted by Joeyjection19 View Post
    Except that's not true at all given modern technology. You of all people know the rule book. Do you really think that a computer with a 4K camera can't identify the hollow beneath the kneecaps, or at least make a better approximation than 99% of humans? And no one is saying that the human element must be given up completely - there's still a home plate ump and, in the unlikely event that the computer messes up, they can fix it.

    Is it a problem that someone has to program the strike zone in the first place? Because then your issue is more likely with the current rule book than with the computer. And even if you have to be somewhat more precise in the rule book, how is that a bad thing? The rules of baseball change yearly.
    I don't have an issue either way. Just stating that I don't believe computers and cameras can distinguish "the area over home plate from the midpoint between a batter's shoulders and the top of the uniform pants -- when the batter is in his stance and prepared to swing at a pitched ball" without help from humans.

    The current strike zone is unique for every single player. The current strike zone can vary pitch to pitch for the same player during the same at bat.

    Because of the bolded above, the top part of the zone can't be established until the ball is nearing the plate.

    I'm not opposed to changing the definition. Just asking how you do it without switching the human element away from an umpire and to a tech guy.

  15. #39
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    Re: Computer Plate Umps Allowed in New Labor Deal

    Quote Originally Posted by smith288 View Post
    You like umpire egos dictating games? That kind of imperfect is ok?
    It's how baseball has always been structured. The volatile unfair imperfect umpire in charge of a great many things. Much like life.

    I mean, we can change it, sure. But in doing so, it will change a very large portion of what baseball is.
    Last edited by Bob Sheed; 12-29-2019 at 09:19 PM.
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    Re: Computer Plate Umps Allowed in New Labor Deal

    Quote Originally Posted by corkedbat View Post
    NL DH?
    . Hopefully NL owners will fight this to the death
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  19. #41
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    Re: Computer Plate Umps Allowed in New Labor Deal

    Quote Originally Posted by Norm Chortleton View Post
    I don't have an issue either way. Just stating that I don't believe computers and cameras can distinguish "the area over home plate from the midpoint between a batter's shoulders and the top of the uniform pants -- when the batter is in his stance and prepared to swing at a pitched ball" without help from humans.

    The current strike zone is unique for every single player. The current strike zone can vary pitch to pitch for the same player during the same at bat.

    Because of the bolded above, the top part of the zone can't be established until the ball is nearing the plate.

    I'm not opposed to changing the definition. Just asking how you do it without switching the human element away from an umpire and to a tech guy.
    Totally get what you’re saying. But the automated strike zone will completely cure the inside/outside problem. There might be some growing pains with the up/down calls.
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  21. #42
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    Re: Computer Plate Umps Allowed in New Labor Deal

    Quote Originally Posted by Norm Chortleton View Post
    I don't have an issue either way. Just stating that I don't believe computers and cameras can distinguish "the area over home plate from the midpoint between a batter's shoulders and the top of the uniform pants -- when the batter is in his stance and prepared to swing at a pitched ball" without help from humans.

    The current strike zone is unique for every single player. The current strike zone can vary pitch to pitch for the same player during the same at bat.

    Because of the bolded above, the top part of the zone can't be established until the ball is nearing the plate.

    I'm not opposed to changing the definition. Just asking how you do it without switching the human element away from an umpire and to a tech guy.
    A computer can determine the strike zone 120 times per second in real time from the instant the batter enters the strike zone until the end of the plate appearance. There is no "tech guy" involved. You are simply wrong that a computer cannot distinguish the area at a given time without human input.

    If your problem is with determining at which point the strike zone is established, then we can go down the absurdity route and say that there is no possible way to determine when the strike zone is established and, therefore, there is no strike zone. If you want to be practical, just average the position of the shoulders, top of the pants, and hollow of the knees between the point that the pitcher releases the ball and when the ball is most of the way to the plate. In that quarter of a second, there's no way there's more than an inch or two variance. Even in the worst case, that inch or two is a much smaller margin of error than a human ump.

    Also, no one is saying that the umpire has no say and no one is saying that there'd be a tech guy. The computer, once programmed, is going to identify the parts of the body automatically and with > 99% precision. Any errors get overruled by the home plate ump. There's not a guy in a booth telling the computer where the batter's shoulder is. It's all automatic. Even that 1% failure rate gets baked into the system once averages start getting taken between the 120 frames in a second. You're believing that something cannot be done which is done thousands of times every day in the real world.

  22. #43
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    Re: Computer Plate Umps Allowed in New Labor Deal

    @Post 32/The Operaror, that's a really good analogy
    Last edited by JohnnyRed; 12-29-2019 at 08:19 PM.

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  24. #44
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    Re: Computer Plate Umps Allowed in New Labor Deal

    Quote Originally Posted by The Operator View Post
    Mike I agree with you pretty regularly but I cannot get on board with that. Seeing game outcomes affected and players literally removed from the game by petulant umpires who think they’re the reason people buy tickets was never part of baseball’s charm, at least not to me.


    I mean, imagine being a math teacher.

    You’re teaching children basic arithmetic and at the very moment you tell a child “3 plus 3 equals 6”, the head of the school board walks by and says “umm, no - three plus three equals seven”.

    You respond “with all due respect, no, it equals six.”


    Head of the school board then has you removed from the classroom and recommends that you be docked pay.


    In front of the school board, you point out that the technology exists to prove that you were correct and numerous parents in the school district object. They state that teachers being removed from the classroom and children underperforming on their standardized testing has always been one of their cherished parts of the education system. They enjoy the ensuing controversy and did not want to see calculators brought into their school system. They like seeing teachers lose pay and have to argue their case against the board.


    I really don’t think there’s much of a difference.
    Baseball is not strictly math. So not sure about your analogy.

    Baseball stats are math. But the game itself is a truly unique combination of a great many things, one of which is math.

    If baseball gets boiled down to math, physics, and unchecked bravado, baseball will die. Because that's all football and basketball are, and baseball can't compete with those two on that level, no matter how flashy or hip baseball tries to make itself.

    If you lose the home plate umpire, and all the baggage that comes with him, you lose a very big part of what makes baseball unique from other professional sports. Even instant replay does baseball no favors.

    I'll give you my analogy:

    Kid gets called out on strike 3, on a pitch that was clearly ball 4.
    Kid argues with the ump and end up getting thrown out of the game.

    The home plate umpire is symbolic of life, and to a lesser degree, authority. Neither of which are perfect, and neither of which are fair. Sometimes you do all the right things, in all the right ways, and you end up getting hosed. That's how it goes sometimes. But you dust yourself off, and, God willing, there's always next at-bat.

    The closer baseball gets to being "perfect," the closer it is to death.

    I mean, what happens when all baseball is:
    1. is a walk, strikeout, or HR.
    2. Calls are never wrong, so no point in arguing.
    3. Any questionable calls are reviewed and corrected.

    We're sucking all the emotion right out of baseball. I miss bunts. Squeeze plays. Stolen bases. Base hits. Icebergs. They're all dying, in favor of "new and improved." Bleh.
    Last edited by Bob Sheed; 12-29-2019 at 09:36 PM.
    “Stop quoting laws to us. We carry swords." -Pompey

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  26. #45
    Member Bourgeois Zee's Avatar
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    Re: Computer Plate Umps Allowed in New Labor Deal

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Sheed View Post
    If you lose the home plate umpire, and all the baggage that comes with him, you lose a very big part of what makes baseball unique from other professional sports. Even instant replay does baseball no favors.
    Nah.

    I'm here for the game between opponents, not the game between the umpire and the catcher.

    Give me a completely unbiased arbiter-- that's what the computer umpire promises.

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