2020 Cincinnati Bengals Offseason Thread

[Bob Sheed]

It wasn't broken thus didn't need fixing

No, I'm pretty sure it was broken.

[Kingspoint]

I know I've said this dozens of times, but I'm saying it again: I disagree with you, Bob, about Mike Brown.

This idea, discussing the Bengals without directly relating it to what would the Brown Family do, I agree when discussing the franchise, but not the details:

"For the record, it's pretty tough to honestly discuss anything Bengal related without running into the Mike Brown Paywall. Unless you're just discussing "what would be nice" or running 5000 mock drafts or whatever.

Because sooner or later, whatever you're talking about, comes down to either what Mike Brown does, or will not do."


Until what I feel was the handing over of the football operations to his heirs prior to Marvin's departure, I was OK with what Mike Brown was doing since he signed Lorenzo Neal in 2001. I felt he switched that year from deliberately sabotaging the franchise to make sure he missed the playoffs to taking steps he had never taken before each and every year for 17 consecutive years to try to win a Championship. Clearly much more could have been done. Just ask Carson Palmer. But, the Mike Brown business portfolio was worth 1000 times more in 2001 than it was worth in 1990. In 2001, his non-Bengals related businesses were worth more than the Bengals were worth in 1992. Even with the collapse of the stock markets in 2002, Mike Brown's assets continued to increase, as he didn't have risky investments. They might have been baby steps, but every year after the signing of Neal, he did something he had never done before with the goal of winning a Championship. The franchise was worth so much, he couldn't screw it up with 15-20% annual growth in value. His other assets alone made him one of the richest people in the Tri-County area. By his peers, he was considered the most talented and intelligent financial person in the Tri-County area. His advice was constantly being sought. Is it any wonder how he was able to control the lemmings disguised as City Commissioners to favor the Brown family at times and why publishers threatened firing of any writer who didn't tow the line? Cincinnati was once the third most populated City in the U.S., and it seems like it's citizens have been chasing that prestige ever since, afraid of losing their NFL franchise if they stand up to the power of the Brown family.

What I see now is Mike Brown allowing his heirs to make their own mistakes, just as he had to make them, and they are going to err on the side of prudence and the hiring of nobody who has a mind of their own who might challenge their decisions, like when Jay Gruden when silent listening to Hue Jackson's stupid ideas, even though Hue should have been a subordinate.

So, Katie and company are at the infancy of their control. Joe Burrow is getting drafted in 1992 by a team that does not have a Championship as its goal, but fiscal responsibility and 100% control as its goal. It already reached its goal. Joe Burrow will sell tickets, even if it's empty hope, because like Scientology running a commercial yesterday on the Comedy Channel, there's always a new group of suckers to come along in addition to former members who might come back and give them money again.

20 more years of the next generation of the Brown Family going unchecked and unchallenged by the local residents ensures one thing: The Bungles live forever.

[Sea Ray]

I assume you mean Mike Brown's kids and not siblings.

We'll see how this year goes. My guess is that Mike Brown knows this is a make or break year and therefore is not going to let his daughter screw things up 100% this time. He'll listen more to Tobin. He knows things are on the brink

[Bob Sheed]

My guess is that Mike Brown knows this is a make or break year and therefore is not going to let his daughter screw things up 100% this time. He'll listen more to Tobin. He knows things are on the brink

[Kingspoint]

I assume you mean Mike Brown's kids and not siblings.

We'll see how this year goes. My guess is that Mike Brown knows this is a make or break year and therefore is not going to let his daughter screw things up 100% this time. He'll listen more to Tobin. He knows things are on the brink

Did I say siblings? I consciously tried not to say siblings and say heirs, but I'm on the 8th day of a bad cold, so my language skills are poor.

I looked back and corrected that plus two other mistakes (error instead of err, and forgot a space).

[Kingspoint]

I assume you mean Mike Brown's kids and not siblings.

We'll see how this year goes. My guess is that Mike Brown knows this is a make or break year and therefore is not going to let his daughter screw things up 100% this time. He'll listen more to Tobin. He knows things are on the brink

I hope you're right because I think Mike Brown could turn Joe Burrow into a Champion were he to get back involved. I have zero faith in Katie and Troy if Mike lets them make their own mistakes. It's a tough call for him, but the opportunity with Burrow might just get him out of retirement.

Giving Tobin the G.M. title with appropriate pay, and hiring of three more scouts with one of the current scouts promoted to Director of Scouting would be the best move the Bengals could make...more important than drafting Burrow #1.

[GAC]

Where is the direction of this franchise coming from right now and what is the goal? That's the only thing that matters. This Joe Burrow talk just seems like the perfect Magician sleight-of-hand trick for the Bengals. I hear nothing at all being quoted by those in control about plans, directions, goals. It truly is the same old, same old. Joe Burrow is going to have a disastrous career because he was drafted by a franchise that seems to be able to control the minds of the people in the community who absolutely refuse to stand up to their continual B.S. This "don't talk about how bad ownership is" thread is a perfect example of this. The Brown family should be feeling so ashamed and uncomfortable right now that nothing short of an apology and a declaration that things will change outlining exactly what these changes will be should be accepted by the community. I can't believe how spineless Bengals' fans are.

I agree and disagree with your points above.

I would not call Bengal fans spineless. In what way or manner? We're simply fans. The best, and most effective way, for fans to strike back at an organization (owner) is to spend no money on them. Total and complete boycott. Attendance, empty stadium sends a strong message. And it's really the only voice a fan has - besides taking to social media - unless one wants to organize a rally and storm the castle with torches and pitch-forks (lol).

This talk about wanting the NFL to intervene some how, some way? .. and do what precisely? I could understand if an organization was hemorrhaging money, hurting the NFL from a financial aspect to the point they would intervene and 1) possibly "force" ownership to sell to interested buyers, or 2) relocation. It happens.

The fact that a large segment of the fan-base hates Mike Brown with the intensity of seven burning suns means very little to the NFL brass. They hear it; but it goes out the other side because #1 the Bengals (financially) aren't in the situation above. They're payroll is 23rd out of 32 teams. And over the last decade, as far as perform-wise (record, play-off appearances) goes - there are far more teams in far worse position then the Bengals. When the perennial last place Browns went 0-16 the NFL didn't even blink.

No one on this thread is saying one shouldn't talk about how bad ownership is. We're ALL on the same page on that. Do we need to hold a vote to get a consensus so we can all move on to other issues, and further the discussion, other then constantly regurgitating "Mike Brown is a terrible owner ... Mike Brown is not committed to winning"? It's fine if one wants to make the Brown family feel ashamed and uncomfortable. I guarantee you they don't read The Tavern (lol), so why keep screaming the same line in the ears of fellow fans, beating them over the head, who already agreed on that point (LOL)?

You mention another point (above) that Redhook also mentioned earlier ...

You’d have to think that all of these negative comments about the Bengals organization would be embarrassing and frustrating to them. And, maybe there would be some self-reflection on why so many bad comments are coming out about them. Like, were/are we really that bad? Why would players want to avoid playing for us? .....

but any sane person/organization in this situation would try to change its image that they have rightfully earned and have done absolutely nothing to change it.

One would rationally think, when looking at the bad image, bad press, the Bengals get - besides an empty stadium - this "new" ownership that is gradually taking over would take notice and want to do something about it. And according to a few articles posted earlier, they have taken notice of it and want to change it. Now will they? Don't know. But I'm going to give them that chance. That's all. That's not a huge boost of confidence in them at all. It's all one can do (lol).

My ISSUE in this discussion is two-pronged, and is with Carson Palmer and the media. Agreeing on a discussion forum with what Palmer said is not an issue. A tree falling in a forest. It's Palmer's perfectly timed public effort, with the help of the media to fire the flame, to dissuade Burrow, make him think twice, about going to the Bengals. They're running a public campaign to try and dissuade quality, possibly game-changing player(s) from coming to the Bengals.

Think about that? On one hand fans are complaining that this organization doesn't pursue higher tier (level) talent enough ... and then, with the other hand yell "Don't come here! This owner/organization sucks, or they'll ruin your career!"

I don't know what to say LOL

But Burrow's recent "I've got leverage" comment does concern me to a small degree. It's one thing for Bengal's management to "blow it" when it comes to the draft .. but quite another when you miss/lose out on drafted players who refuse to play for you. What's the purpose of the draft order then?

JMO, but you're getting an opportunity to do something all of us, including most college level players, could only fantasize about - play pro sports, and make millions doing so. As a amateur college player entering the draft, you shouldn't get to choose where that opportunity is. Be thankful you got it. Those same winners we complain about, think get shown favoritism, are going to continue to be the winners if player's get to choose where they go.

IMO, the penalty for refusing should be much stiffer, or your system is worthless.

[GAC]

I hope you're right because I think Mike Brown could turn Joe Burrow into a Champion were he to get back involved. I have zero faith in Katie and Troy if Mike lets them make their own mistakes. It's a tough call for him, but the opportunity with Burrow might just get him out of retirement.

Giving Tobin the G.M. title with appropriate pay, and hiring of three more scouts with one of the current scouts promoted to Director of Scouting would be the best move the Bengals could make...more important than drafting Burrow #1.

I don't think Mike is retired (lol). From what I understand (read) he may be leaving more of the decision-making to the "team", but is still "around".

And this "team" didn't start taking over the reins until the beginning of the previous season. IF, and I say IF, Mike is leaving the decision-making responsibilities, direction of the organization, in their hands, then it's a small window IMO. OK. Fine. A big part of that team is Mike Brown's kids. And I'm sure, besides their formal education, they've learned a thing or two from Daddy. That does not mean they are necessarily going to run the organization exactly like Daddy.

I think Mike Brown ... yeah, stiff-necked, hard-headed Mike Brown (in his mid-80s) ... has seen the writing on the wall so to speak, the sentiment/attitude of the fans/city towards him and the organization, and that's why you're seeing a transition of power. May be hard to believe, but it's happening IMO. All things must pass.

I'm simply approaching this as giving them a shot. That's it. I'm still from Missouri (lol). This draft, and the upcoming season, IMO, is very critical - has the organization at a possible turning point - where one will know whether they're heading in the right direction. But understand. IMO, this team was better then that 2-14 record. I know. Ain't saying much, but I still contend, from an offensive side, they were decimated by injury, far more then a lack of talent. JMO.

The key issue/question moving forward is WHO is going to #1 recognize team weakness/needs, and #2 responsible, going forward, in evaluating and acquiring that talent? I'd say the answer is Tobin and Taylor. That is their forte. When it comes to negotiations, contracts, etc, then it falls to Katie (hubby). Kate has almost 30 years of experience, the first woman to be a chief contract negotiator in the NFL, and is respected around the league as an expert on the NFL's complicated salary-cap structure. IMO, when all is said and done, she will be the primary decision-maker, everything will "flow through her" at some point in the future when it comes to the final word.

Now will that be good or bad moving forward? Fasten your seat-belts and lets see.

But fans can't keep complaining about the level of talent this team goes after, the lack thereof, or settles on, not committed to winning .. while at the same time being a "counter-productive" element towards any future efforts they may make to improve the team (direction) by telling quality players they'd be stupid to come here, don't do it.

Fans keep saying "They're gonna blow this, I just know it. They're going to continue to screw this thing up. Same-o, same-o. Nothing changes".

You could very well be right. Lets see.

[Todd Gack]

The fact that a large segment of the fan-base hates Mike Brown with the intensity of seven burning suns means very little to the NFL brass. They hear it; but it goes out the other side because #1 the Bengals (financially) aren't in the situation above. They're payroll is 23rd out of 32 teams. And over the last decade, as far as perform-wise (record, play-off appearances) goes - there are far more teams in far worse position then the Bengals. When the perennial last place Browns went 0-16 the NFL didn't even blink.

The worst thing to happen to this franchise outside of just being plain cheap and awful during the 90's is that their performance hasn't been the worst. Mike Brown and ownership will point and say, "Look, we went to the playoffs 5 straight years and we're not THAT bad." So then Bengals fans get on Twitter and parrot that exact statement to the national media and Mike Brown knows he still has this decidedly ignorant fanbase in his pocket again. Look, we've seen this song and dance before. We have a new generation of Bengals fans who have never seen or felt the 90s. They truly have no idea how cheap this man is. Until he actually commits to winning a Super Bowl instead of just being "ok," this franchise isn't going to progress. Joe Burrow isn't going to be the savior everyone thinks he will be. As many have state, it's going to take more than just him to be relevant again.

[Redsfaithful]

The worst thing to happen to this franchise outside of just being plain cheap and awful during the 90's is that their performance hasn't been the worst.

I've said this before but I had a lot of fun in all those playoff seasons. Lot of happy Sundays, especially once my oldest son started watching. This isn't real life, and because I DO remember the 90s I think I appreciate the good times in an appropriate way.

I just want a diversion. When they are 2-14 I don't even get that, but luckily they'll be competitive again with Burrow.

Most fans will see their favorite teams win a handful of championships in their entire life, unless they are fans of teams from a place like New York, LA, San Francisco, etc. The Bengals are never going to compete year in, year out for a Super Bowl unless they strike it rich with a Peyton Manning type of QB. That's the same situation a bunch of teams and cities find themselves in.

Cincinnati sports fans should be happy right now. The Reds are about to finally play competitive baseball again and the Bengals are about to get a franchise QB. It's not so bad folks.

[Bob Sheed]

There's that Mike Brown word again. "competitive."

And isn't that the dream of every team's fan base? To be competitive?

No, it's not. Ask fans of most teams and you'll hear words like "dominant." "Successful." "Champions."

But 30 years of Mike Brown has this fan base so beaten down, that most would be ecstatic with "competitive." Heck, the Bengals were competitive during most of the Marvin Lewis years.

Competitive is when you play just good enough to lose. Any more or any less, and you have to use a more appropriate word there.

"Competitive." Like I said before. Bengals fans these days sound like a bunch of battered wives defending their husbands. Look no further than the "no talking bad about Mike Brown" thread in this very forum. Scour the internet for other sports team forums and you won't find such a thread.

"We're just lucky we have a team."

Kids, this is why monopolies are bad.

[Redsfaithful]

It's just a fundamental disagreement on the point of sports I guess. If I needed my teams to be champions every year I wouldn't watch sports at all. It would be a totally miserable experience.

I consider myself lucky that I've seen the Reds win one, Ohio State football two (+ a few final fours in basketball), the Cavs one, and I've seen a Super Bowl featuring the Bengals. That's a pretty sorry tally for a 38 year old compared to many fan bases, but you know very well it could be worse. Literally millions of people are sitting at 0 titles for their favorite teams in the last 40 years. And some of them have even seen teams move away - imagine growing up as a sports fan in San Diego? And people don't even talk about them as having it rough all that much.

[Redsfaithful]

If all someone cares about is a championship, do they even enjoy the regular season when their team is good? None of it matters except the title? I can see that happening once you've been spoiled enough, anything becomes routine (like the Pats, the Yankees at times, etc.) but again, I'd stop watching sports at that point.

I do feel bored with most of Ohio State regular season football, so I guess it's like that. The attraction there at this point is that it's a family/cultural thing, because sure, it doesn't usually matter much until November.

[Bob Sheed]

It's just a fundamental disagreement on the point of sports I guess. If I needed my teams to be champions every year I wouldn't watch sports at all.

I'd settle for "any" year.

But I agree with the rest of what you said. 1990 Reds were fun. Wire to wire.
88 Bengals were just as fun. Boomer's camera-man faking play action. The Ickey Shuffle. Good stuff.
Bearcats final four, pretty awesome.

That's my tally.

As for San Diego, I have about as much remorse for Hawaii's sports fans and for many of the same reasons right now. (cough...sneeze)

[Redsfaithful]

As for San Diego, I have about as much remorse for Hawaii's sports fans and for many of the same reasons right now. (cough...sneeze)

That's fair!