Luhnow and Hinch suspended for a year; subsequently fired

[757690]

Not missing the point at all. I'm just not outraged over it. It's keeping up with traffic. Just like going 70 MPH in town on the interstate when the speed limit is 55. Is it illegal? Sure. Is it worth getting worked up over or is it just doing what everybody else is?

To be clear, IMO, all teams are illegally stealing signs with some kind of scheme involving technology.

Again, speeding is mostly a victimless crime. Cheering like the Astros did is not.

It’s like saying robberies happen all the time in poor neighborhoods, so it’s okay.

And I strongly disagree that all teams are using technology to steal signs. Strongly disagree.

[mth123]

Adding to this. Reminds me of the steroids didn’t hit the ball argument. Always thought that was the equivalent of saying why isn’t my Chevette fast even when I put a supercharger on it. Well if you put a supercharger on a corvette...then it goes from fast to insanely fast. The Astros were already in the Corvette camp. They were great. But adding knowing when a fastball is coming to that...yeah. Ridiculous. And yes. Every team probably cheats on some level. But this seems to be team wide and systematic. And has the ability to basically be facing a pitching machine by knowing what’s coming. I say lifetime bans. Don’t strip the title. It can stay on the books. But no evidence of it is to be displayed at the park. 2 years no post season. 4 years no draft picks first 2 rounds. Zero international pool signing money. Lay the hammer down.

Glad you aren't in charge of my business. You are proposing penalties that penalize the entire industry and devalue the product on the field. You wanna ban Luhnow and Hinch for life? OK. I don't care. That doesn't really hurt the product. Even an individual player or two banned for life doesn't really do much to hurt the product.

Post-season bans? 4 years of lost draft picks? That's creating a huge problem for one of your 30 franchises and will have a negative effect on all the others. Doesn't make any sense IMO. That isn't the purpose of these punishments. The purpose is to create the appearance of the game being on the up and up so fans keep spending, not to create a reason for fans to walk away, A post season ban or sending a franchise into an extended tailspin would cause a bunch of fans to walk away. It's counterproductive.

[mth123]

Again, speeding is mostly a victimless crime. Cheering like the Astros did is not.

It’s like saying robberies happen all the time in poor neighborhoods, so it’s okay.

And I strongly disagree that all teams are using technology to steal signs. Strongly disagree.

I don't see a victim here. The teams that lost to the Astros were doing this stuff too. They got beat same as if they grooved a fat one in extra innings.

[Old school 1983]

Glad you aren't in charge of my business. You are proposing penalties that penalize the entire industry and devalue the product on the field. You wanna ban Luhnow and Hinch for life? OK. I don't care. That doesn't really hurt the product. Even an individual player or two banned for life doesn't really do much to hurt the product.

Post-season bans? 4 years of lost draft picks? That's creating a huge problem for one of your 30 franchises and will have a negative effect on all the others. Doesn't make any sense IMO. That isn't the purpose of these punishments. The purpose is to create the appearance of the game being on the up and up so fans keep spending, not to create a reason for fans to walk away, A post season ban or sending a franchise into an extended tailspin would cause a bunch of fans to walk away. It's counterproductive.

I know what you’re saying. It was kind of the point. Zero tolerance.

[westofyou]

They had talent too. But so did the dodgers that year. Knowing when a fastball is coming is a huge advantage i hitting. Was it the only reason they won....no....major contributing factor. Yes.

So the NL should take away the 1951 Giants flag and give it to the Dodgers too?

[savafan]

I wonder if Clayton Kershaw thinks this punishment is sufficient?

[westofyou]

I wonder if Clayton Kershaw thinks this punishment is sufficient?

I wonder what Chris Carpenters son thinks about it as well

[Old school 1983]

So the NL should take away the 1951 Giants flag and give it to the Dodgers too?

I never said it should be taken away. I said they should not be able to publicly acknowledge it. It’ll still be in the books as Astro’s WS champs. Given that most of the participants in 1951 are dead, And the franchise is on the other side of the country, I’m not sure what doing anything to them at this point would do, but for consistency’s sake, yes, no public acknowledgement of the buzzer using Giants title either.

[cumberlandreds]

I wonder if Clayton Kershaw thinks this punishment is sufficient?

You know if this was another team besides the Dodgers,Yankees or Red Sox I would feel bad for them. But since this was the Dodgers I don't. (This is coming from an old Reds fan that grew up a fan in the 70's.)

[757690]

I don't see a victim here. The teams that lost to the Astros were doing this stuff too. They got beat same as if they grooved a fat one in extra innings.

If I believed this, I would walk away from the game forever. It means the entire game is corrupt and we never know if the best team ever wins. It means it’s professional wrestling.

[mth123]

I know what you’re saying. It was kind of the point. Zero tolerance.

Zero tolerance is fine. Ban Luhnow for life. Turn him into Shoeless Jeff Luhnow.

Don't hurt the product. I'm not in favor of bans from the post season or extended years of preventing someone from competing. I think the 2 years of lost draft picks is too much. Your proposing turning the Astros into another Marlins. No reason to go to the park or watch on TV. The Marlins are a huge problem for MLB. Why impose a punishment that creates another one?

[westofyou]

I never said it should be taken away. I said they should not be able to publicly acknowledge it. It’ll still be in the books as Astro’s WS champs. Given that most of the participants in 1951 are dead, And the franchise is on the other side of the country, I’m not sure what doing anything to them at this point would do, but for consistency’s sake, yes, no public acknowledgement of the buzzer using Giants title either.

Then there should be a little indicator next to the 1919 Reds title as well.

[mth123]

If I believed this, I would walk away from the game forever. It means the entire game is corrupt and we never know if the best team ever wins. It means it’s professional wrestling.

Better start walking.

It's not professional wrestling. The outcome isn't scripted. It's teams competing. The process of pitching and hitting extends into all this intelligence. Scouting reports are one example. Loading the baseball, blurring the lines of the batters box and using an illegal bat are others. I think Stealing Signs, no matter how, is the same as that. Beat the competition. Get the edge and don't get caught,

I don't understand the aversion to technology. Just give them closed circuit communication devices. No signs to steal and they can still communicate without the batter knowing. If they want to end this, it's that easy. If they keep up the signs, they need to keep up the charade that these aren't easily compromised I suppose.

Fans want to believe I guess. Christmas is more exciting if you still believe in Santa I suppose.

[Old school 1983]

Then there should be a little indicator next to the 1919 Reds title as well.

Now that is a story I have not heard. What was going on with the Reds and sign stealing in 1919?

[757690]

Better start walking.

It's not professional wrestling. The outcome isn't scripted. It's teams competing. The process of pitching and hitting extends into all this intelligence. Scouting reports are one example. Loading the baseball, blurring the lines of the batters box and using an illegal bat are others. I think Stealing Signs, no matter how, is the same as that. Beat the competition. Get the edge and don't get caught,

I don't understand the aversion to technology. Just give them closed circuit communication devices. No signs to steal and they can still communicate without the batter knowing. If they want to end this, it's that easy. If they keep up the signs, they need to keep up the charade that these aren't easily compromised I suppose.

Fans want to believe I guess. Christmas is more exciting if you still believe in Santa I suppose.

Here is the example about Costas made that I think works.

It’s okay to use technology to study for a test, take extra classes, go online for research, but you can’t take your phone in with you when you take the test.

You are saying everyone is taking their phones in with them to take the test. I strongly disagree with this, and am walking away from this discussion since it’s clear we just disagree on this key point.