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Thread: Reds Sign RP Nate Jones to Minor Leage Deal

  1. #16
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    Re: Reds Sign RP Nate Jones to Minor Leage Deal

    Quote Originally Posted by Kc61 View Post
    So you’re a spring training results person. Good luck with that.

    Counting on perennially injured players is not the way to advance the Reds to winning status.

    This is a fine move if you have zero expectations and an otherwise loaded bullpen with healthy pitchers.
    What I am saying is that spring training can show if Nate Jones is healthy and still able to pitch. If he shows that, great. You have a good reliever. If not, he is gone and nothing is lost.

    People get too worked up over minor league signings. Most do not work out, but some do and can provide help to the major league team. What is the harm in checking?

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  4. #17
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    Re: Reds Sign RP Nate Jones to Minor Leage Deal

    Quote Originally Posted by Kc61 View Post
    So youíre a spring training results person. Good luck with that.

    Counting on perennially injured players is not the way to advance the Reds to winning status.

    This is a fine move if you have zero expectations and an otherwise loaded bullpen with healthy pitchers.
    I am 100% certain the Reds have moved on from evaluating pitchers based on Spring Training stats. They will evaluate Jones on his health, spin rates, velocity, movement, and control/command. It is absolutely a good, no risk pickup.

    They aren't counting on him, it is a minor league deal.

    If the guy has potential to be an impact reliever, which Jones has shown himself to be in the past, you make the move regardless of current bullpen status.
    "Today was the byproduct of us thinking we can come back from anything." - Joey Votto after blowing a 10-1 lead and holding on for the 12-11 win on 8/25/2010.

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  6. #18
    Stat Wanker Hodiernus RedsManRick's Avatar
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    Re: Reds Sign RP Nate Jones to Minor Leage Deal

    Quote Originally Posted by Kc61 View Post
    I canít tell you how much I disagree with this post.

    The last thing the Reds need is to add perennially injured players. Itís a roll of the dice, if thatís how you want to build a team.
    Here is a list of the relievers who threw 20 IP for the best bullpen in baseball last year:

    Jalen Beeks
    Emilio Pagan
    Diego Castillo
    Ryan Yarbrough
    Oliver Drake
    Colin Poche
    Chaz Roe
    Adam Kolarek
    Andrew Kitteredge
    Austin Pruitt
    Jose Alvarado
    Yonny Chirinos
    Hunter Wood
    Nick Anderson

    Effective bullpens are often built on finding talent that has fallen through the cracks. It's not about placing big bets on big names who have track records of both health and effectiveness. Almost by definition, those guys don't fall through the cracks. And while I wouldn't build my entire bullpen from scratch every year, you absolutely want to be rolling the dice on enough guys with upside that a handful work out and give you the depth you need but otherwise cannot afford.

    It's not like they gave the guy a guaranteed major league deal.
    Games are won on run differential -- scoring more than your opponent. Runs are runs, scored or prevented they all count the same. Worry about scoring more and allowing fewer, not which positions contribute to which side of the equation or how "consistent" you are at your current level of performance.

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  8. #19
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    Re: Reds Sign RP Nate Jones to Minor Leage Deal

    It's seems the best way to build a bullpen is to acquire as many potentially major-league caliber arms as possible, and then sorting them out.

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  10. #20
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    Re: Reds Sign RP Nate Jones to Minor Leage Deal

    Quote Originally Posted by CaiGuy View Post
    It's seems the best way to build a bullpen is to acquire as many potentially major-league caliber arms as possible, and then sorting them out.
    ďPotentially major-league caliber arms.Ē Injury cases.

    Just canít agree.

    Maybe for the last spot in the pen on a rotating basis.

  11. #21
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    Re: Reds Sign RP Nate Jones to Minor Leage Deal

    Quote Originally Posted by Kc61 View Post
    “Potentially major-league caliber arms.” Injury cases.

    Just can’t agree.

    Maybe for the last spot in the pen on a rotating basis.
    You simply aren't going to have 7 or 8 locks for spots in the pen. You might have a couple of core guys and then the next 8- or 10 or however many are going to be mostly interchangeable guys. The example above shows 14 pitchers who got significant playing time for the best bullpen in the league.

    I mean, the Reds payed big to extend a closer with a track record of health and great results, and now everyone wants him gone.

    You just need to get as much depth of decent arms as you can get and hope 8 of them are healthy and effective at any given time.

  12. #22
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    Re: Reds Sign RP Nate Jones to Minor Leage Deal

    Quote Originally Posted by CaiGuy View Post
    You simply aren't going to have 7 or 8 locks for spots in the pen. You might have a couple of core guys and then the next 8- or 10 or however many are going to be mostly interchangeable guys. The example above shows 14 pitchers who got significant playing time for the best bullpen in the league.

    I mean, the Reds payed big to extend a closer with a track record of health and great results, and now everyone wants him gone.

    You just need to get as much depth of decent arms as you can get and hope 8 of them are healthy and effective at any given time.
    Even the yankees pen was pretty much a hot mess of random guys beyond their high priced three of Chapman, Ottavino, and Britton.
    "Today was the byproduct of us thinking we can come back from anything." - Joey Votto after blowing a 10-1 lead and holding on for the 12-11 win on 8/25/2010.

  13. #23
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    Re: Reds Sign RP Nate Jones to Minor Leage Deal

    Quote Originally Posted by Griffey012 View Post
    Even the yankees pen was pretty much a hot mess of random guys beyond their high priced three of Chapman, Ottavino, and Britton.
    Admittedly, a lot of the big name arms I wanted the Reds to go after last year were monumental failures. Joe Kelly was one of the top names on the market and he finished with -.06 WAR

    Acquiring as many potential options as possible seems like a good way to go.
    Last edited by OGB; 01-15-2020 at 02:34 PM.
    (Referring to Jack Hannahan signing with a Korean team)
    Since there are no teams on the moon, I guess South Korea's far enough from Cincinnati to satisfy me.
    -RichRed

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    Re: Reds Sign RP Nate Jones to Minor Leage Deal

    Quote Originally Posted by OGB View Post
    Afmittedly, a lot of the big name arms I wanted the Reds to go after last year were monumental failures. Joe Kelly was one of the top names on the market and he finished with -.06 WAR
    $20M left on that deal too assuming they buyout the last year.

  16. #25
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    Re: Reds Sign RP Nate Jones to Minor Leage Deal

    Quote Originally Posted by CaiGuy View Post
    You simply aren't going to have 7 or 8 locks for spots in the pen. You might have a couple of core guys and then the next 8- or 10 or however many are going to be mostly interchangeable guys. The example above shows 14 pitchers who got significant playing time for the best bullpen in the league.

    I mean, the Reds payed big to extend a closer with a track record of health and great results, and now everyone wants him gone.

    You just need to get as much depth of decent arms as you can get and hope 8 of them are healthy and effective at any given time.
    To this point, I think the Reds have 3 locks:

    Garrett
    Lorenzen
    Iglesias

    And 3 guys who likely will be there barring collapse, injury, or trade:

    Stephenson
    Sims
    Reed

    That leaves two spots for guys to rotate in and out through the year. Most likely to break camp with the Reds for those spots are Kuhnel and Shafer. DeLeon would be the next guy up, with Bowman after that. Thornburg and Jones probably follow them. They'll all be stashed at AAA.
    Gratitude + Forgiveness = Happiness

  17. #26
    Stat Wanker Hodiernus RedsManRick's Avatar
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    Re: Reds Sign RP Nate Jones to Minor Leage Deal

    Quote Originally Posted by Kc61 View Post
    “Potentially major-league caliber arms.” Injury cases.

    Just can’t agree.

    Maybe for the last spot in the pen on a rotating basis.
    331 pitchers threw at least 20 innings in relief last year for a particular team:

    - 5 teams had 9 RP w/ 20+ IP
    - 8 teams had 10
    - 6 teams had 11
    - 4 teams had 12
    - 6 teams had 13
    - 1 team had 14

    20 IP is no cup of coffee for a reliever. That's a few months of work. In other words, yes, absolutely. In every single bullpen across the MLB, you're going to be dipping in to your reserves for relievers for extended stretches. Those back spots are almost certain to rotate. The question is who you're going getting those innings from?
    • Proven, healthy MLB-caliber relievers who couldn't secure an MLB job to begin with? Are there many of those guys lying around? How much are you paying for them to toil in AAA? Yes, please (if they exist).
    • MLB-ready prospects who just don't have a roster spot? Sort of a waste of resources to burning service time/options shuttling guys back and forth for roles they're over-qualified for. It's a nice problem to have, I guess, but who has that problem? Yes, please (if they exist).
    • Proven, but unhealthy MLB-caliber relievers who couldn't secure an MLB job? You can't count on any 1 guy to be there, but if he's healthy, he should contribute. Yes please (if they're cheap -- and they usually are).
    • Unproven, maybe MLB-caliber minor league FAs or slow-to-develop prospects who haven't gotten a good shot yet? There's actually fair number of these guys -- Rays have built out bullpens with them for years. Yes please (if they're cheap -- and they usually are).
    • Not-MLB-ready prospects who will just have to take their lumps? We all know how well that works out -- short-term and long. No thanks.
    • Proven to be not MLB-caliber vets trying to eek out a living until the industry is done with them. No thanks.


    By and large, the back end of your bullpen is going to be a rotation cast of guys with upside by whom you can't really count on -- pretty much by definition. Generally speaking, if they're better than that in some way, they have an MLB job already. If they're worse than that, they don't deserve one. It comes down to whether your team is a) luckily enough to play in the green pool, b) smart enough to play in the orange pool instead of the red one, and c) lucky/skilled enough to pick winners from the orange pool.
    Last edited by RedsManRick; 01-15-2020 at 04:56 PM.
    Games are won on run differential -- scoring more than your opponent. Runs are runs, scored or prevented they all count the same. Worry about scoring more and allowing fewer, not which positions contribute to which side of the equation or how "consistent" you are at your current level of performance.

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  19. #27
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    Re: Reds Sign RP Nate Jones to Minor Leage Deal

    Quote Originally Posted by Kc61 View Post
    So youíre a spring training results person. Good luck with that.

    Counting on perennially injured players is not the way to advance the Reds to winning status.

    This is a fine move if you have zero expectations and an otherwise loaded bullpen with healthy pitchers.
    C'mon..every team has non-roster invitees in the spring, many oft injured. It's nothing new and nobody is suggesting they only grab injured players to round out the roster.
    Last year we had a pretty decent SS who was a minor league signing and a 2nd baseman who hit a bunch of dingers early on.
    So he's been injured in the past. I suspect most everyone who ever posts here has been injured at some point as well. It doesn't mean we're always injured and never heal up.

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  21. #28
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    Re: Reds Sign RP Nate Jones to Minor Leage Deal

    Quote Originally Posted by allpurpose View Post
    C'mon..every team has non-roster invitees in the spring, many oft injured. It's nothing new and nobody is suggesting they only grab injured players to round out the roster.
    Last year we had a pretty decent SS who was a minor league signing and a 2nd baseman who hit a bunch of dingers early on.
    So he's been injured in the past. I suspect most everyone who ever posts here has been injured at some point as well. It doesn't mean we're always injured and never heal up.
    Jones pitched 11.2 innings in 2017; 30 innings in 2018; and 10.1 innings in 2019. His last full MLB season was in 2016. Among his DL stays, he was on the 60-day DL in 2014, 2015, 2018, and 2019 (forearm surgery).

    There are posters here saying, in effect, THiS is the way to fix the Reds’ pen.

    Nothing against minor league contracts, but spare me the accolades to Reds for this manner of solidifying the pen. I wish this pitcher good luck, seems like he deserves a break after all the injuries, I’ll be rooting for him.
    Last edited by Kc61; 01-16-2020 at 01:22 AM.

  22. #29
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    Re: Reds Sign RP Nate Jones to Minor Leage Deal

    Oh c'mon..it's not as if the Reds organization has ever made even the slightest error in judgement in signing anyone ever.. LOL

  23. #30
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    Re: Reds Sign RP Nate Jones to Minor Leage Deal

    Win-Win.
    "One problem with people who have no vices is that they're pretty sure to have some annoying virtues."


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