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Thread: NBA 2019-2020

  1. #271
    Member Rojo Rijo's Avatar
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    Re: NBA 2019-2020

    Quote Originally Posted by M2 View Post
    Would you offer the pre-RFA contract extension? And, if so, for how much?
    Depends on how he plays next year but if I had to offer an extension (based on right now) beyond that I'd offer something around 4 years and between 15-17 per with a backend TO worth 2 mil more than his final year. I could get on board with a 4/66 - 15, 16, 17, 18 with a TO for 20 at age 27. But again, so much depends on his development between now and next summer. That's the unfortunate part of the situation, typically teams have sufficient time on the rookie deal to find out a players worth before making any kind of commitment. With Fultz that time was cut in half.

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  3. #272
    Member Rojo Rijo's Avatar
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    Re: NBA 2019-2020

    Quote Originally Posted by M2 View Post
    Everybody has flashes, especially against Atlanta and Detroit. I watched him against the Celtics just about a week ago and he was useless.
    I know. Had three TOs and only took 4 shots. That's the type of game that he has to learn from. He's had good flashes and bad ones too. He had a pretty rough January - 5 games scoring in single digits despite playing around 30 mins. (and one of those was Boston). He really needs a strong game against Boston (2 left with them). He's played them once in the preseason (1-8 shooting) and twice so far (3-10 and 2-4) in the regular season.

  4. #273
    Posting in Dynarama M2's Avatar
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    Re: NBA 2019-2020

    Quote Originally Posted by Rojo Rijo View Post
    Depends on how he plays next year but if I had to offer an extension (based on right now) beyond that I'd offer something around 4 years and between 15-17 per with a backend TO worth 2 mil more than his final year. I could get on board with a 4/66 - 15, 16, 17, 18 with a TO for 20 at age 27. But again, so much depends on his development between now and next summer. That's the unfortunate part of the situation, typically teams have sufficient time on the rookie deal to find out a players worth before making any kind of commitment. With Fultz that time was cut in half.
    So you wouldn't put on offer on the table this summer and would wait until he officially became an RFA? I can see that. Much as I'm not high on Fultz, I might offer him the extension this summer. If he breaks out, you probably have him at a deal price. If he doesn't, it actually helps to have some contracts you can move.
    Last edited by M2; 02-13-2020 at 05:52 PM.
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  5. #274
    Thanks a lot, Bowie Kuhn Revering4Blue's Avatar
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    Re: NBA 2019-2020

    Quote Originally Posted by Rojo Rijo View Post
    Fox was definitely seen as the better prospect but the main knock on Monk was being undersized (6'3) for a wing player and he wasn't seen as having the ability to transform into a scoring lead guard. Still his jump shot was a thing of beauty at UK (he was a rare 3 level scorer) and I thought he was going to be a steal for whatever team drafted him. I'm not surprised the Hornets have buried/misused him, they've destroyed almost every lottery pick they've taken (Zeller, Kaminsky, MKG, Vonleh, Henderson, DJ, Brandan Wright, Morrison, Felton, Okafor) not named Kemba. I know some of these guys just weren't any good but come on, only 1 out of 11 guys you drafted worked out? That's an organizational problem. Good thing SGA got out but they have done ok so far with Miles Bridges. Still that's another whiff on Charlotte as SGA looks like a future star.
    It's no secret that this incarnation of the Bobcats/Hornets from their onset in '04 -- and you can say the same thing about the Cousins-era Kings to a certain extent -- tended to, more often than not, select with lottery picks popular college players of which were a)reaches in an attempt to fill a need. b)low ceiling/high floor - basic no-nos, especially in this era of position-less basketball. So, yes, I agree with your general point. However..

    - I wouldn't say that Okafor (an All-Rookie team performer) and Henderson didn't work out.

    - Until Kemba was drafted with in '11, Morrison, obviously an abject bust, represented the one-and-only Bobcat/Hornets (this incarnation, of course) swing-for-the-fences with a high ceiling/very low floor with a high lottery pick. So that may have played into future franchise draft strategies. Still, I hardly believe that many pre-'06 draft scouts had Morrison rated higher than, say, Rudy Gay and/or Brandon Roy on their respective draft boards. But Morrison was an immensely popular/highly visible college player, so there you go.

    - Wright never played a second for the Bobcats/Hornets, as he was traded away on draft day for Jason Richardson, who actually beasted in Charlotte.. for only one season before being traded away midway through his second season in Charlotte.

    - Vonleh (another high ceiling/low floor pick, albeit one that hasn't come close to fulfilling his potential - it happens) and Henderson were dealt away for Batum, who was subsequently (along with Zeller and MKG) given a very questionable (and that's putting it mildly) extension, which, more than anything, spelled the end for Rich Cho.

    Nevertheless, I have no issue with the '17-'19 Hornets drafts, as they seem to have distanced themselves from reaching to fill needs. To that end, one thing to keep in mind regarding the SGA/Bridges deal: Hornets will also receive Cleveland's '20 2nd (Via the Clips) and a '21 second, and Kupchak sports a pretty good second round drafting/acquiring drafted second rounders (Jordan Clarkson/Devonte Graham). We will see.
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  6. #275
    Posting in Dynarama M2's Avatar
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    Re: NBA 2019-2020

    Quote Originally Posted by Revering4Blue View Post
    Nevertheless, I have no issue with the '17-'19 Hornets drafts, as they seem to have distanced themselves from reaching to fill needs.
    They could have Donovan Mitchell and SGA. That's got to hurt. PJ Washington was a fine pick though.
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  7. #276
    Thanks a lot, Bowie Kuhn Revering4Blue's Avatar
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    Re: NBA 2019-2020

    Quote Originally Posted by M2 View Post
    They could have Donovan Mitchell and SGA. That's got to hurt. PJ Washington was a fine pick though.
    Several teams overlooked Mitchell and SGA if we're going to play this game. The point is that Monk wasn't a reach to fill a need, as he was projected to be off the board before the Hornets '17 pick. Contrast that with their '12, '13 and '15 lotto selections, all of which were definite reaches. Who expected MKG to become the next Iquodala when Drummond and Beal still out there for the taking?

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  8. #277
    Member Rojo Rijo's Avatar
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    Re: NBA 2019-2020

    Quote Originally Posted by Revering4Blue View Post
    Several teams overlooked Mitchell and SGA if we're going to play this game. The point is that Monk wasn't a reach to fill a need, as he was projected to be off the board before the Hornets '17 pick. Contrast that with their '12, '13 and '15 lotto selections, all of which were definite reaches. Who expected MKG to become the next Iquodala when Drummond and Beal still out there for the taking?

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    What's crazy about MKG over Beal is they could've done even worse and picked Thomas Robinson.

    The one thing I remember about that draft is when Portland took Lillard 6th and Harrison Barnes was still on the board.
    Last edited by Rojo Rijo; 02-14-2020 at 12:47 PM.

  9. #278
    Member Bourgeois Zee's Avatar
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    Re: NBA 2019-2020

    I suspect another team could have made MKG a monster.

    Charlotte drafts poorly and, worse, has zero history of developing any talent whatsoever.

    That is their biggest issue as a team.

  10. #279
    Posting in Dynarama M2's Avatar
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    Re: NBA 2019-2020

    Quote Originally Posted by Revering4Blue View Post
    Several teams overlooked Mitchell and SGA if we're going to play this game. The point is that Monk wasn't a reach to fill a need, as he was projected to be off the board before the Hornets '17 pick. Contrast that with their '12, '13 and '15 lotto selections, all of which were definite reaches. Who expected MKG to become the next Iquodala when Drummond and Beal still out there for the taking?
    Mitchell causes widespread sting. Yet it became immediately apparent in the summer league that Mitchell was vastly superior to Monk. Ultimately they pay people to get it right. Just because others made the same mistake, doesn't mean it wasn't a huge mistake.

    On SGA, it's more directly on the Hornets. At some point the light bulb could have gone on that the team with Jerry West really wanted SGA, so maybe don't draft and trade him. We have to assume the Hornets recognize they've got shaky judgment. They've screwed up too often not to have a little self-realization. Meanwhile, West has close to a Midas touch.
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  11. #280
    Member Bourgeois Zee's Avatar
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    Re: NBA 2019-2020

    Quote Originally Posted by M2 View Post
    Mitchell causes widespread sting. Yet it became immediately apparent in the summer league that Mitchell was vastly superior to Monk.
    Monk was injured just before Summer League began. Once real practice began, he was shoehorned into a third- or fourth guard option on a poor team. Charlotte didn't do anything to help him along and has actively hindered his game for three years. He should have been allowed the freedom to make mistakes as a rookie or second-year guy. Instead, one defensive lapse or poor pass, and he was jerked out of the game. He averaged 13 mpg as a rookie. That's inexcusable development from a team that had no hope of advancing beyond the second round (at best).

    Mitchell, as a rookie, averaged nearly 3.0 TO/36. His offensive rating (103) was below his defensive rating (105). But, at more than 30 MPG, he was allowed to learn from his mistakes.

    It's taken Monk three years to find enough minutes to begin scoring in bunches. Even now, he'll be jerked around again. Because that's the Hornet way.

    Had their draft order been reversed, I suspect we wouldn't be talking about Mitchell as an All-Star.

  12. #281
    Posting in Dynarama M2's Avatar
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    Re: NBA 2019-2020

    Quote Originally Posted by Bourgeois Zee View Post
    Monk was injured just before Summer League began. Once real practice began, he was shoehorned into a third- or fourth guard option on a poor team. Charlotte didn't do anything to help him along and has actively hindered his game for three years. He should have been allowed the freedom to make mistakes as a rookie or second-year guy. Instead, one defensive lapse or poor pass, and he was jerked out of the game. He averaged 13 mpg as a rookie. That's inexcusable development from a team that had no hope of advancing beyond the second round (at best).

    Mitchell, as a rookie, averaged nearly 3.0 TO/36. His offensive rating (103) was below his defensive rating (105). But, at more than 30 MPG, he was allowed to learn from his mistakes.

    It's taken Monk three years to find enough minutes to begin scoring in bunches. Even now, he'll be jerked around again. Because that's the Hornet way.

    Had their draft order been reversed, I suspect we wouldn't be talking about Mitchell as an All-Star.
    Possibly, but Monk's been bad for three years. They definitely should have played him more just to see if he can improve. Still should. Though I think the most likely explanation for him is that he's not very good. He was supposed to be able to shoot from deep and he's bad at it.
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  13. #282
    My clutch is broken RichRed's Avatar
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    Re: NBA 2019-2020

    I’m impressed with the NBA knowledge you guys have. What’s your opinion of the Wizards’ direction, here in the early days of the post-Grunfeld era? Does this mostly-lapsed fan have a reason to start caring again?
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  14. #283
    Member Bourgeois Zee's Avatar
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    Re: NBA 2019-2020

    Quote Originally Posted by RichRed View Post
    I’m impressed with the NBA knowledge you guys have. What’s your opinion of the Wizards’ direction, here in the early days of the post-Grunfeld era? Does this mostly-lapsed fan have a reason to start caring again?
    The Wizards' style and personnel are among the most entertaining in the league.

    Everyone shoots, and remarkably few play any kind of defense.

    They'll have a bunch of cash to spend in the off-season ($15M or so), and guys like Hachimura, Bryant, Wagner, and Bertans look like quality supporting pieces. Beal is still just 26. (The whole team is super young. Beal's the 13th youngest player on the roster.)

    Were I the Washington GM, I'd re-sign Bertans (duh) and offer Furkan Korkmaz a fairly substantial package to start at SF. That'd be a starting lineup of Wall, Beal, Korkmaz, Bertans, and Bryant, with Troy Brown, Jr. (an excellent find in 2018), Isaac Bonga (as a ball-dominant wing), and Ish Smith as backups.

    That's enough, IMO, to make the Wizards a playoff contender, perhaps a bit more than that.

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  16. #284
    Posting in Dynarama M2's Avatar
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    Re: NBA 2019-2020

    Quote Originally Posted by Bourgeois Zee View Post
    The Wizards' style and personnel are among the most entertaining in the league.

    Everyone shoots, and remarkably few play any kind of defense.

    They'll have a bunch of cash to spend in the off-season ($15M or so), and guys like Hachimura, Bryant, Wagner, and Bertans look like quality supporting pieces. Beal is still just 26. (The whole team is super young. Beal's the 13th youngest player on the roster.)

    Were I the Washington GM, I'd re-sign Bertans (duh) and offer Furkan Korkmaz a fairly substantial package to start at SF. That'd be a starting lineup of Wall, Beal, Korkmaz, Bertans, and Bryant, with Troy Brown, Jr. (an excellent find in 2018), Isaac Bonga (as a ball-dominant wing), and Ish Smith as backups.

    That's enough, IMO, to make the Wizards a playoff contender, perhaps a bit more than that.
    They've got pieces (especially Brown) and a bona fide star player in Beal. Playing no defense has made them fun to watch. They could sneak into the playoff picture this season.

    Moving forward is going to be tricky for them. Spotrac doesn't list DC as having Bird rights on Bertans for next season, so he's going to be hard to keep. They're over $100M on existing contracts and he could cost $15M+. That puts them above the $109M cap. With Wall's unmovable $41M salary, it's going to be hard for them to make splashy additions or keep their UFAs.

    The way forward is probably guys like Brown, Hachimura and Wagner moving up to the next level. Poach some low cost guys and hit on your draft picks (going to be hard to do this summer) and they could get to respectable. Wall making real contributions when he returns (he'd been trending down for two seasons prior to blowing out his Achilles) would be a major help. They'd surely like to get something for their money.
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  18. #285
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    Re: NBA 2019-2020

    Quote Originally Posted by Bourgeois Zee View Post
    Were I the Washington GM, I'd re-sign Bertans (duh) and offer Furkan Korkmaz a fairly substantial package to start at SF. That'd be a starting lineup of Wall, Beal, Korkmaz, Bertans, and Bryant, with Troy Brown, Jr. (an excellent find in 2018), Isaac Bonga (as a ball-dominant wing), and Ish Smith as backups.
    Not sure why folks keep thinking that Korkmaz is a free agent after the season...I posted this a few days back:

    Quote Originally Posted by SteelSD View Post
    Actually, Furk is signed through the 2020-21 season. His contract dollars for next season guarantee if he's not waived by late July (and they won't waive him, of course). I believe they also retained his Bird rights.
    Fast forwarding to now...Unless the Wizards are able to move John Wall (and with his injury history and 15% trade kicker stacked onto a 40M+ contract, it's a safe bet they can't), they need to seriously consider moving Bradley Beal. I'd take a long look at Denver and attempt to work out a swap centering on something like Beal+Bonga for Jamal Murray+Michael Porter Jr. Denver desperately needs a high-level scorer and Washington needs a less ball-dominant, defensive-oriented guard when Wall returns.

    A trade like that would result in a starting lineup of Wall, Murray, Bertans, Hachimura, and Bryant (or Porter Jr. if going "small"). If they can't re-sign Bertans, they can slot in Porter Jr. and end up with incredible length for their front court unit and a back court whose play styles might actually compliment each other rather than compete. The team may actually play some defense too.
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