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Thread: GM building an all-electric-vehicle plant in Detroit.

  1. #61
    Member Kingspoint's Avatar
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    Re: GM building an all-electric-vehicle plant in Detroit.

    Quote Originally Posted by JaxRed View Post
    No.. you are 100% wrong. The Volt was a plug in hybrid. Went 50 miles or so on electric and then kicked over to it's gas engine. They stopped selling it last year. The Bolt is a pure electric with a range of 232 all electric miles. It has been on sale from Chevy since 2016.

    Two totally different vehicles. Different technology. Not a name change. The vehicles could hardly look much more different.
    You would be incorrect on the Volt's technology, but correct on the Bolt being a different vehicle. I remember the Bolt now. It's that same piece of crap I'm talking about like the Leaf and Prius. It's a deathtrap that sacrificed safety, power and stability in order to lower price (because stupid consumers fall in love with the idea of "electric" vehicle without looking at what they are actually getting.) The Volt got 62 mpg because it converted it's gasoline into electricity even though it had so many more power requirements than a vehicle like a Bolt, Leaf or Prius. The Volt is far superior than any of them, which made it the all-time top-selling U.S. plug-in electric car and the world's all-time best-selling hybrid electric car.

    From Wikipedia (so you have a reference).

    The Volt operates as a pure battery electric vehicle until its battery capacity drops to a predetermined threshold from full charge. From there, its internal combustion engine powers an electric generator to extend the vehicle's range as needed. When the engine is running it may be periodically mechanically linked (by a clutch) to a planetary gear set, and hence the output drive axle, to improve energy efficiency. The Volt's regenerative braking also contributes to the on-board electricity generation. Under the United States Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) cycle, the 2013/15 model year Volt all-electric range is 38 mi (61 km), with a combined electric mode/gasoline-only rating of 62 mpg‑US (3.8 L/100 km; 74 mpg‑imp) equivalent (MPG-equivalent), with a range of 420 miles. Not bad for 7 gallons of gas. This is the technology that people want, but at a lower price. That's not possible. People are going to have to pay more or else by these cheap and crappy cars like the Leaf, Bolt and Prius.

    Chevy had to come up with something cheap, I guess, when Obama (since rescinded by Trump I think) required a certain percentage of all vehicles manufactured to be electric.
    Last edited by Kingspoint; 01-30-2020 at 03:47 AM.
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  3. #62
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    Re: GM building an all-electric-vehicle plant in Detroit.

    Arguing about this doesn't help.

    Here's a good article on why G.M. made the change: https://www.greentechmedia.com/artic...the-chevy-volt

    It's terrible that what drove the change was consumers' demands as mentioned by many in this thread,...that most EV drivers live along the coastlines where many charging stations exist and thus range became irrelevant, but outside Portland, everything is more than 50 miles away so sales of all EV doesn't help on many vehicles. It's also terrible that salespeople's laziness in spending the effort to sell the Volt properly resulted in low demand. Someone comes in to inquire about it and they get a bad salesperson. So, G.M. had to dumb down their electric car to match the brains of their sales people. Very disturbing


    It's remarkable that automobile sales are still driven by uninformed consumers (even though they think they are) and dumb sales people operated by manipulative managers and owners. It's a tragedy, really.
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  4. #63
    SERP Emeritus paintmered's Avatar
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    Re: GM building an all-electric-vehicle plant in Detroit.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kingspoint View Post
    You would be incorrect on the Volt's technology, but correct on the Bolt being a different vehicle. I remember the Bolt now. It's that same piece of crap I'm talking about like the Leaf and Prius. It's a deathtrap that sacrificed safety, power and stability in order to lower price (because stupid consumers fall in love with the idea of "electric" vehicle without looking at what they are actually getting.) The Volt got 62 mpg because it converted it's gasoline into electricity even though it had so many more power requirements than a vehicle like a Bolt, Leaf or Prius. The Volt is far superior than any of them, which made it the all-time top-selling U.S. plug-in electric car and the world's all-time best-selling hybrid electric car.

    From Wikipedia (so you have a reference).

    The Volt operates as a pure battery electric vehicle until its battery capacity drops to a predetermined threshold from full charge. From there, its internal combustion engine powers an electric generator to extend the vehicle's range as needed. When the engine is running it may be periodically mechanically linked (by a clutch) to a planetary gear set, and hence the output drive axle, to improve energy efficiency. The Volt's regenerative braking also contributes to the on-board electricity generation. Under the United States Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) cycle, the 2013/15 model year Volt all-electric range is 38 mi (61 km), with a combined electric mode/gasoline-only rating of 62 mpg‑US (3.8 L/100 km; 74 mpg‑imp) equivalent (MPG-equivalent), with a range of 420 miles. Not bad for 7 gallons of gas. This is the technology that people want, but at a lower price. That's not possible. People are going to have to pay more or else by these cheap and crappy cars like the Leaf, Bolt and Prius.
    The biggest problem the GM had with the first generation Volt was that there was no marketing firm that could effectively explain all of that in six words during a 30 second ad. The engineering execution was pretty good, but the Volt was neither a conventional electric car or a conventional plug-in electric. Those who thought it was the former rejected it for its short electric-only range, and those who thought it was the later rejected it on price and bought a Prius instead.
    All models are wrong. Some of them are useful.

  5. #64
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    Re: GM building an all-electric-vehicle plant in Detroit.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kingspoint View Post
    .....with a range of 420 miles. Not bad for 7 gallons of gas. This is the technology that people want, but at a lower price. That's not possible.
    This brought up something funny from years ago. My dad's job was shifted to northern Maine on the Canadian border for a few years in the early 90s, and he bought a Geo Metro for the commute and left his truck up there. The specs? He got exactly 60 mpg on the highway, or 420 miles on 7 gallons of gas. The official sales fliers listed 58mpg, but you could get over 60 if you babied it.

  6. #65
    Member BernieCarbo's Avatar
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    Re: GM building an all-electric-vehicle plant in Detroit.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kingspoint View Post
    Yeah...same here. And, some of them have just been pieces of crap. So much is sacrificed as far as stability and safety in order to make them lighter. I sold Subaru's for 10+ years, the Leaf's their first three years on the market (not a safe car to drive, but it's not the deathtrap that the Prius is, but the Leaf is very efficient with their gas/electric hybrid technology, second only to the Volt, in a class by itself, not counting Tesla, of course), and the Volt for 8+ years. I would definitely own a Volt, but just not ready, yet. Just spent last weekend on Mt. Hood and going through the Gorge. Not taking anything other than a Subaru on that trip.
    Yeah, they just aren't quite there yet, but this is a necessary phase the industry has to go through to work out the kinks. Obviously the biggest issue is the batteries, and although you state that the Subaru EV has 100% recyclable batteries, very little lithium is ever recycled. Plus, the energy used to produce the batteries is still enormous. If you are interested in the science, this is a pretty good paper that came out a while ago. It's almost three years old, but the physics hasn't changed: https://www.researchgate.net/publica...ctric_vehicles

    So, we can look at it two ways- if the total carbon footprint and environmental impact is the most important to you, then the best choice is to buy a used vehicle and run that forever (if I drive my '75 F-250 for ten thousand miles a year for the next ten years, it will have a lower footprint than a new EV). But if someone is simply interested in the technology, promoting it is a great thing too.
    Last edited by BernieCarbo; 01-30-2020 at 09:55 AM.

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    Re: GM building an all-electric-vehicle plant in Detroit.

    Quote Originally Posted by JaxRed View Post

    As far as the electric being generated by fossil fuels, every year the percentages get better and better. For example the percentage of US electricity from coal has gone from 2014 to 2019 as follows; 39%, 35%, 30.4% 30%, 27%. Most of that was accomplished by conversion to natural gas which is better for the environment. So your electric car gets cleaner every year.
    We're certainly getting there. Check out the planned additions to electric generating capacity in the US in 2020 according to the EIA. Only 22% fossil fuel, and all of it nat gas.

    "According to the U.S. Energy Information Administration’s (EIA) latest inventory of electric generators, EIA expects 42 gigawatts (GW) of new capacity additions to start commercial operation in 2020. Solar and wind represent almost 32 GW, or 76%, of these additions. Wind accounts for the largest share of these additions at 44%, followed by solar and natural gas at 32% and 22%, respectively. The remaining 2% comes from hydroelectric generators and battery storage."
    Last edited by Boston Red; 01-30-2020 at 11:50 AM.

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    Re: GM building an all-electric-vehicle plant in Detroit.

    Quote Originally Posted by JaxRed View Post
    And Sea Ray will want to know about the warranty !!
    I sure will. Remember I never buy new cars. Never.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Boston Red View Post
    No, it means we want to get to our destination ASAP. Adding an hour to our trip would objectively suck.
    I'd be more concerned with the waiting in line stuff. If it takes 30 mins and you're 4th in line then you're talking 2 hrs minimum

  9. #68
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    Re: GM building an all-electric-vehicle plant in Detroit.

    just thinking out loud...any hope for solar power helping out this situation? I'm envisioning a technology where there are solar panels on the roof/trunk/hood of the car where you start the day on a fully charged battery and on a sunny day the solar power supplements the charging and extends the range, maybe even indefinitely so long as the sun is shining.

  10. #69
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    Re: GM building an all-electric-vehicle plant in Detroit.

    What about an option on a car where it has two batteries whereas you can hit a switch and change over to the second battery when the first one goes out? Sure, it'd be an expensive upgrade but car buyers may find it appealing and splurge for it. Again just thinking out loud...

  11. #70
    Member BernieCarbo's Avatar
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    Re: GM building an all-electric-vehicle plant in Detroit.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sea Ray View Post
    just thinking out loud...any hope for solar power helping out this situation? I'm envisioning a technology where there are solar panels on the roof/trunk/hood of the car where you start the day on a fully charged battery and on a sunny day the solar power supplements the charging and extends the range, maybe even indefinitely so long as the sun is shining.
    Every little bit helps, but it wouldn’t be enough to provide infinite motion. The sun delivers about 900 W per square meter to the earth’s surface in the best conditions, and even if solar panels were 100% efficient, it wouldn’t be enough. But again, every little bit helps.

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    Re: GM building an all-electric-vehicle plant in Detroit.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sea Ray View Post

    I'd be more concerned with the waiting in line stuff. If it takes 30 mins and you're 4th in line then you're talking 2 hrs minimum
    Yeah, I thought about that later as well, but I didn't want to be soft by bringing it up.

  13. #72
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    Re: GM building an all-electric-vehicle plant in Detroit.

    Quote Originally Posted by Boston Red View Post
    Yeah, I thought about that later as well, but I didn't want to be soft by bringing it up.
    A guy like me doesn't care about "being soft". It's just RZ.

  14. #73
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    Re: GM building an all-electric-vehicle plant in Detroit.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sea Ray View Post
    What about an option on a car where it has two batteries whereas you can hit a switch and change over to the second battery when the first one goes out? Sure, it'd be an expensive upgrade but car buyers may find it appealing and splurge for it. Again just thinking out loud...
    We are better off investing in higher density and better batteries. If you were going to invest in a double battery pack, you’d be better off just investing in a single bigger battery pack instead, because as the charge gets closer to zero, the efficiency gets very low. A larger battery pack would give you more time before it gets down into that inefficient dead band.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Boston Red View Post
    Yeah, I thought about that later as well, but I didn't want to be soft by bringing it up.
    But you spent about four hours staring at your phone every day. Time is on your side.

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  16. #74
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    Re: GM building an all-electric-vehicle plant in Detroit.

    Solar on the vehicle will never make a meaningful impact. As far as waiting on chargers while on the road.... Tesla is the leader, everyone else if playing catch up and trying to get where they are. But your typical Tesla recharge station has 8-10 chargers. Some have up to 40. So it's not like everyone waits on a single charger.

    Last Thanksgiving for the first time ever one of the California stations had a line of cars waiting. It made the "news" (The internet) because it basically never happened before. Even then the wait to charge was like 20 minutes. And Tesla has a ton of tools in it's belt to prevent it from happening again. Hopefully they employ those tools.
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  17. #75
    Member JaxRed's Avatar
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    Re: GM building an all-electric-vehicle plant in Detroit.

    Bernie, I'm not familiar with any inefficient dead band. I don't think that's legit. But I agree the idea have having 2 batteries is, well, pretty dumb. The batteries are the heaviest and most expensive part, so it would be almost like buying/carrying 2 cars just to avoid a 30 minutes charge.

    It's a solution to a problem that pretty much doesn't exist.
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