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Thread: RIP Kirk Douglas, 103

  1. #46
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    Re: RIP Kirk Douglas, 103

    Quote Originally Posted by marcshoe View Post
    When Douglas died Twitter was overrun with celebs posting pictures of Natalie Wood, if that's any indication. I was a huge Kirk Douglas fan as a kid, but when I read about these allegations a couple of weeks ago, they seemed more than credible.

    https://twitter.com/search?q=%23nata...rc=typed_query
    Natalie Wood was my favorite actress as a kid until I learned what a horrible person she was. I have zero respect for her and those like her.
    "One problem with people who have no vices is that they're pretty sure to have some annoying virtues."

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  3. #47
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    Re: RIP Kirk Douglas, 103

    Quote Originally Posted by RedsBaron View Post
    As far as Natalie not having time to interview for a role in 1955, that comment ignored the reality of her career at that point. "Rebel" had not yet become a cult film nor probably had even been yet released, nor had "The Searchers" been filmed. Natalie did not really become established as a leading lady who could perhaps carry a movie until the 1960s. As a career move it would have made sense for her to interview for a film with Kirk Douglas (assuming that happened). From what I've read it also would not shock me if Natalie was aware of a possible "casting couch" approach to securing a role. However, again assuming the rumors , the "interview" lead to brutality against her will.
    Calling "Rebel" a cult film ignores the facts. Natalie was nominated for an Oscar. Indeed Dean was the only star of the movie who wasn't nominated. Mineo was nominated for supporting actor and Ray was nominated for best director. Rebel was a huge box office hit due to the fact that Dean was killed right before its release.

    " Natalie Wood, Sal Mineo, and Nicholas Ray were nominated for Academy awards for their roles in Rebel Without a Cause, which grossed $7,197,000 in domestic and overseas screenings, making it Warner Bros.' second-biggest box office draw that year."
    Wiki

    Less "rumours', more facts.

  4. #48
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    Re: RIP Kirk Douglas, 103

    Quote Originally Posted by Fil3232 View Post
    Its not our job to present you proof. Were not a jury. Some of us choose to lend credibility to the allegations and offer sympathy to the victim, even if far too late for Natalie Wood herself. You can do whatever you want.
    The selfrightious bandwagon.

    "But we need to make sure things are actually true, that we are not just participants in a messed up game of telephone, before we open our mouths. If we don't, we give credence to the "Has #MeToo Gone Too Far?" people, which should be the last thing we want to do. "

    I submit that mature educated people should back up their statements with real evidence. By crying wolf over unsupported foolishness we are doing an injustice to real victims . Folks should use a little effort and review the facts before "choosing to lend credibility to the allegations "

    "Call me crazy, but I need more than gossip and innuendo and the joys of being on a self-righteous bandwagon to believe that someone is a rapist."

  5. #49
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    Re: RIP Kirk Douglas, 103

    Quote Originally Posted by Kingspoint View Post
    You mean, you can trace it straight to Douglas,...yes, Douglas Fairbanks, then Clark Gable. Clark Gable is where the bar is permanently set.
    No. I meant Kirk Douglas. Fairbanks and Gable were both stylists. That's classical acting, imported from the stage. Douglas wasn't a classical actor. Probably wouldn't have been much of stage actor. Yet he was purpose-built for film. He was able to convey something deeply broken at the heart of the bulletproof hero, fighting for triumph while constantly on the edge of breaking. No one knew that's what would supercharge film before he came along. You'd just get Gable or Grant or Olivier or Cagney to chew the scenery. They were fabulous, but Douglas inhabited the screen. In a medium where you're projected larger than life, he figured out (or maybe just had) presence. He wasn't working the script. He was working the camera, and by extension the audience. Everybody does it now. It's become the core of what leading men do.

    Yet it's not there in early movies. There were great actors and movie stars. There were predecessors. Everybody thought John Wayne was the reference point, but his characters were too straightforward. Douglas' were itchy below the surface, building toward a crescendo. It's the Superman/Batman paradigm. Superman is the bigger hero, but Batman's the one who causes endless fascination. When Douglas was on the screen, you had to pay attention because something's up with that guy. And he did it across almost every type of movie and via vastly different characters. He wasn't Kirk Douglas in every role (like John Wayne almost always was playing John Wayne), but he was always 100% movie star, using every inch of that screen.

    As you can tell, I consider him vastly important. He's the template. Pick pretty much any Douglas movie, the more obscure the better, and you're watching what we'd consider a modern performance in an older movie.
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  6. #50
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    Re: RIP Kirk Douglas, 103

    Forgive me, but I don't quite understand - whenever a celebrity dies (possibly tragically) - other then paying your respect's to that individual, their influence on your life .... why it's so important to dredge up any bad or questionable behavior from their career, and for what purpose? They're dead. I just don't see how it's beneficial in any way.

    It's Hollywood. It's been the true "Swamp", as far as scandals and illicit/immoral behavior, since it's inception. There are more skeletons in closets then Mercedes Benz. I heard the Douglas-Wood rumor years ago. I shrugged, then put it in the vault with all the other myriads of celeb scandals to gather dust. Not that you don't care. You grow numb to it because it's day after day it seems. And the industry itself put it's best foot forward to suppress "bad publicity" because it was an industry whose wealth was built on public image (support).

    A lot people in Hollywood could write Flynn books "Their Wicked, Wicked Ways". If it's true about Douglas, then I'll vault him with all the rest... Chaplin, Arbuckle, Flynn, Cooper, and all the rest.

    I still watch their movies.
    Last edited by GAC; 02-11-2020 at 04:45 AM.
    "In my day you had musicians who experimented with drugs. Now it's druggies experimenting with music" - Alfred G Clark (circa 1972)

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    Dom Heffner (02-12-2020)

  8. #51
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    Re: RIP Kirk Douglas, 103

    With Kobe Bryant I don't see any reason to dredge up his past unless people exaggerate his qualities of being a Dad/father, which is exactly what happened. In the case of Kirk Douglas, it all comes down to consent. Did Natalie Wood consent with the idea that it'd help her career? Did she not understand what coming up to his hotel room meant? It's not a slam dunk that Douglas is the villain here, especially if it's judged based on the culture of the time. Since we'll never know these answers, I too put this in a vault.

  9. #52
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    Re: RIP Kirk Douglas, 103

    Quote Originally Posted by Kingspoint View Post
    It is common knowledge with those who worked with her.
    Since neither of us worked with her I am curious to who "those" were. I've read that Natalie had numerous affairs in the 1950s and 60s, so I wouldn't be shocked if some people were upset about that, but I haven't read any accounts that most people with whom she worked did not like her.
    "Hey...Dad. Wanna Have A Catch?" Kevin Costner in "Field Of Dreams."

  10. #53
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    Re: RIP Kirk Douglas, 103

    Quote Originally Posted by Mutaman View Post
    Calling "Rebel" a cult film ignores the facts. Natalie was nominated for an Oscar. Indeed Dean was the only star of the movie who wasn't nominated. Mineo was nominated for supporting actor and Ray was nominated for best director. Rebel was a huge box office hit due to the fact that Dean was killed right before its release.

    " Natalie Wood, Sal Mineo, and Nicholas Ray were nominated for Academy awards for their roles in Rebel Without a Cause, which grossed $7,197,000 in domestic and overseas screenings, making it Warner Bros.' second-biggest box office draw that year."
    Wiki

    Less "rumours', more facts.
    Daniel Patrick Moynihan once said that "Everyone is entitled to his own opinions but not to his own facts." Whether or not Natalie Wood was raped by anyone is at best a subject of opinion.
    However you have ignored a few facts about the status of her career circa 1955 when the alleged "interview" with the star two decades her senior is claimed to have occurred. Natalie Wood was born on July 20, 1938. The incident supposedly occurred when she was still age 16, so that would put its supposed occurrence some time prior to mid-July 1955. "Rebel Without A Cause" was not released until October 29, 1955, several months after the alleged rape. As for Natalie's supporting actress Oscar nomination, the Oscar ceremony for films and performances released in 1955 did not occur until March 21, 1956 and included films released as late as December 1955 ("Picnic") so it is pretty safe to say that Natalie did not have an Oscar nomination in hand in the first half of 1955 for a film that had not even been released.
    She was also not such an established star that she would not have interviewed for another role in 1955. After "Rebel", she continued to make appearances in several TV series in an era when appearing on TV was generally considered to be a major "step down" from appearing in the more prestigious part of acting, movies. In 1955 Natalie appeared in TV series "Kings Row," "Camera Three" and "Studio One In Hollywood." In 1956 she appeared in TV series "Warner Brothers Presents" and "The Kaiser Aluminum Hour." In 1957 she appeared in TV series "Conflict" and "Studio 57." During this time she also appeared in movies, but none of those movies from 1956 through 1960 were major hits other than "The Searchers," and her role in that film, while memorable, was actually small.
    It was only with the release in 1961 of "Splendor In The Grass" that Natalie Wood headlined a major hit. It was quickly followed by several other hit movies in which she was either the lead character or had a major role, including "West Side Story," "Gypsy,", "Love With The Proper Stranger" and "The Great Race." She received multiple Oscar nominations for best actress between 1961 and 1965 but did not win. By the end of 1965 her "hot streak" of movie stardom largely ended, with only 1969's "Bob & Carol & Ted & Alice" being a major hit thereafter.
    "Hey...Dad. Wanna Have A Catch?" Kevin Costner in "Field Of Dreams."

  11. #54
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    Re: RIP Kirk Douglas, 103

    I do want to apologize for conflating a couple of things I'd read yesterday. My brain was scrambled.
    [Reading] is the sole means by which we slip, involuntarily, often helplessly, into another's skin, another's voice, another's soul" -- Joyce Carol Oates

  12. #55
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    Re: RIP Kirk Douglas, 103

    I stumbled across this a couple of days ago, and it seems to fit. Doggerel has its place.

    Eternal Syndication

    The famous do not live as long as we,
    Their lives begin and end in static bursts.
    Young faces flicker, in a flash we see
    Their beauty fade, and now they shrink, accursed,

    By black and white illusions that erase
    The wrinkles from their aged, sagging brows.
    How ugly they appear to us, whose days
    Are measured by their wisdom—how wise now?

    So what use is a life that passes fast?
    A frozen image only makes it seem
    Their better days are always in the past,
    And soon they will be seen but will not see.

    And yet I slash my pen across my vein
    And pray that one day theirs will be my name.
    [Reading] is the sole means by which we slip, involuntarily, often helplessly, into another's skin, another's voice, another's soul" -- Joyce Carol Oates

  13. #56
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    Re: RIP Kirk Douglas, 103

    Quote Originally Posted by Sea Ray View Post
    This is what bothers me. Today you don't need proof to sully someone lifetime reputation. No due process. An allegation is all you need. Sad that given this guy's extraordinary career and 103 yr life that so much is written in threads like this about Natalie Wood. We should be talking about his career in Hollywood and what he did to become famous and instead we're talking about this allegation as if he was proven guilty. Sad

    - - - Updated - - -



    If she didn't name names then we shouldn't either
    I think I understand your argument but I only agree to a point. The allegations involving Natalie Wood should not have been part of the eulogy for Kirk Douglas at his funeral any more than alleged unfavorable conduct needed to be part of Kobe Bryant's eulogy. I certainly wouldn't raise those matters with the families of the deceased, especially in their time of grief.
    However as far as I know, there are no grieving members of the families of Douglas or Kobe or any other celebrity posting here.
    At least 50% of U.S. Presidents in the last 80 years have been accused of marital infidelity: Franklin Roosevelt, Dwight Eisenhower, John Kennedy, Lyndon Johnson, George H. W. Bush, Bill Clinton and Donald Trump. For the most part, no "due process" was used nor were the allegations proven in a court of law. Some of the allegations appear to me to have merit, some seem to me to be totally without credibility, but I do not think the allegations are beyond discussion even if in some cases unproven. Even if true the allegations are only part of the story of each man. The alleged shortcomings of FDR and Ike do not mean that their leadership during World War II or their other achievements should be ignored.
    I believe Thomas Jefferson should still be honored for his numerous accomplishments even if the rumors that he fathered children by his slave, Sally Hemmings, are true [I understand DNA evidence supports the rumors], but I also do not believe the rumors should not be discussed.
    Actors and athletes are not as significant as presidents of course but they are public figures. We are under no obligation to discuss them nor are we under any obligation to only discuss their positive attributes or give them homage.
    We really do not know any of these people. Forty years ago I would not have believed that Pete Rose, seemingly the ultimate competitor, would ever give us grounds to at least speculate that he would bet on the game, perhaps even against his team. Forty years ago Bill Cosby was America's father figure with a beloved public image. Forty years ago O.J. Simpson was beloved by advertisers, many of whom would not otherwise feature an African-American as a spokesperson, with such a nice guy public image that reportedly he was rejected to play the title figure in the first "The Terminator" film because no one would believe him as a killer.
    "Hey...Dad. Wanna Have A Catch?" Kevin Costner in "Field Of Dreams."

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  15. #57
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    Re: RIP Kirk Douglas, 103

    Quote Originally Posted by Kingspoint View Post
    Natalie Wood was my favorite actress as a kid until I learned what a horrible person she was. I have zero respect for her and those like her.
    Wasn't she Mario Puzo's inspiration for the off-screen character that Johnny Fontaine "ruined" in The Godfather? Much like Sinatra was the inspiration for Fontaine.
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    Chip is right

  16. #58
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    Re: RIP Kirk Douglas, 103

    I'm going to think about how the sagas of Thomas/Jefferson/Sally Hemmings, Franklin Roosevelt, Dwight Eisenhower, John Kennedy, Lyndon Johnson, George H. W. Bush, Bill Clinton and Donald Trump, Pete, Bill Cosby, and OJ, can be used in support of anonymous people spreading unsupported gossip about alleged sexual assaults on social media.
    Last edited by Mutaman; 02-12-2020 at 09:35 PM.

  17. #59
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    Re: RIP Kirk Douglas, 103

    Quote Originally Posted by Chip R View Post
    Wasn't she Mario Puzo's inspiration for the off-screen character that Johnny Fontaine "ruined" in The Godfather? .
    I've heard that was Marilyn. Or maybe it was Jackie O. Elanor Roosevelt?


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