Turn Off Ads?
Page 5 of 14 FirstFirst 123456789 ... LastLast
Results 61 to 75 of 208

Thread: How ' bout Jose Garcia?

  1. #61
    Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Posts
    716

    Re: How ' bout Jose Garcia?

    Quote Originally Posted by M2 View Post
    Sure, but my point is a young SS with a higher error total might be a good thing. It's often an indicator of range.
    I'm sorry but I don't think I can ever be convinced more errors is a good thing. Maybe it's semantics but you can argue that it's not necessarily an indicator of a poor defender but I can't get on board with a high error total being a good thing.


  2. Turn Off Ads?
  3. #62
    Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Cincinnati
    Posts
    154

    Re: How ' bout Jose Garcia?

    Quote Originally Posted by MoneyInTheBank View Post
    I'm sorry but I don't think I can ever be convinced more errors is a good thing. Maybe it's semantics but you can argue that it's not necessarily an indicator of a poor defender but I can't get on board with a high error total being a good thing.
    Getting to 20 more balls and turning 15 into outs and 5 into errors isn't a good thing? Its kind of like an old HS basketball coach told me once: a guy who never fouls isn't playing defense hard enough. In other words, sometimes poor outcomes can still be indicative of a good process.

  4. Likes:

    drowg14 (03-03-2020),Edd Roush (03-03-2020),Griffey012 (03-03-2020),M2 (03-02-2020),TRF (03-03-2020)

  5. #63
    Haunted by walks
    Join Date
    Apr 2000
    Location
    Syracuse
    Posts
    9,352

    Re: How ' bout Jose Garcia?

    The flip side was Encarnacion. He was athletic and had “range,” but although he got to the ball, he wasn’t in a position to catch it or throw it. That made me question whether he actually had the range.

  6. #64
    Sprinkles are for winners dougdirt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Posts
    49,317

    Re: How ' bout Jose Garcia?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chip R View Post
    Now you wonder about guys who go straight to the NBA after a year or 4 in college or guys who go straight to the NFL after 3-4 years in college and compete in those leagues but a baseball player has to have 3-4 years of minor league seasoning in addition to high school and college. Why can't those guys just show up on a big league roster and perform adequately? I know the system in place now gives teams incentive to keep them in the minors but theoretically speaking, if these guys are as talented in their sport as guys like Zion Williamson and Joe Burrow are at theirs, why can't they compete in the show immediately like the former two?
    There's not a basketball equivalent, but there is a football one: Quarterbacks. You don't see too many "ready" NFL quarterbacks at 21 or 22. Just like you don't see many ready MLB players at 19 or 20. Baseball isn't a physical sport, just like quarterback isn't. You need plenty of athleticism in some way to get there, of course, but you absolutely need the mental side of things, too. Quarterbacks need to know how to read the defenses on top of having the physical abilities. Likewise, hitters in particular, need to have the mental ability to read a pitch quick enough to know what they can do with it on top of having the physical abilities to actually do something with it. Both of those things take time and reps to get. And they are only ones you can realistically get by actually playing against other elite level players because it's just not the same without it. You can't develop that in high school, or even college most of the time because the guys you are playing? Yeah, they can't do what the guys you'll face on Sunday or in the Majors are going to do hardly ever.

  7. Likes:

    GAC (03-03-2020),North (03-03-2020),Spanky (03-03-2020),WrongVerb (03-03-2020)

  8. #65
    Goober GAC's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2001
    Location
    Bellefontaine, Ohio
    Posts
    28,361

    Re: How ' bout Jose Garcia?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ladeda View Post
    ^^^ This.

    Like you said, he isn't a random player. The Reds paid $5mm to sign him bc they thought he was uber talented. He was in Daytona as a 21 year old, while Senzel was there as a 22 year old, so it will be interesting to see how he performs in AA this year.

    And FWIW-- no idea who this person is-- but they had Garcia as the top prospect for the Reds back in January. So yeah-- some people who follow this closely see the talent.

    https://www.prospectslive.com/lists/...p-30-prospects
    I don't think anyone in this discussion denies his talent (potential). You have a segment of fans who think this kid is ready right now for the majors, and no longer needs to prove himself. When was the last time one saw a A/A+ player jump to the majors with success?

    I think some are misinterpreting the accolades given out by the coaches and ex-players who have observed this kid. I don't see anywhere where any of them are attaching to that claim that he's ready right now for promotion to the majors. No doubts. Garcia himself says there is much he still needs to learn at the SS position. Two years at A ball, and seven ST games (12 ABs), regardless of the success, is not sound justification for that extreme of a jump IMO.

    Yeah, the Reds are high on this kid. And they invited him to ST to get a better look-see. But their intent/goal is not for him to replace Galvis this season; but to continue his development/trajectory for possibly '21 when Galvis exits.

    If he's the "real deal" then he should have no problem proving that to the organization and fans at AA where he'll get consistent playing time, and he'll be up here soon enough. And yeah, maybe at some point later in this season depending on how things work out.
    "In my day you had musicians who experimented with drugs. Now it's druggies experimenting with music" - Alfred G Clark (circa 1972)

  9. #66
    Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Posts
    716

    Re: How ' bout Jose Garcia?

    Quote Originally Posted by BRM13 View Post
    Getting to 20 more balls and turning 15 into outs and 5 into errors isn't a good thing? Its kind of like an old HS basketball coach told me once: a guy who never fouls isn't playing defense hard enough. In other words, sometimes poor outcomes can still be indicative of a good process.
    The key word there is "sometimes". I should have used my words better as my second sentence conveys my point better. Yes, getting to more balls and making more errors is acceptable

    To your example, if a player averages 4.5 fouls per game do you say "wow, he must be a great defender BECAUSE he fouls a lot"? Like I said, it's probably semantics but I won't draw the line more errors = good just because we like the prospect. If the argument is "sometimes guys make more errors because of better range so we can't draw conclusions". Great, totally on board. Even better, "here are some stats to support the fact that Garcia has superior range, therefore we shouldn't worry so much about the errors". I'd say "Wow, I've never seen that. You're right, those error totals aren't so concerning"

  10. #67
    Big Red Machine RedsBaron's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2000
    Location
    Out Wayne
    Posts
    23,817

    Re: How ' bout Jose Garcia?

    In 1974 Dave Concepcion committed 30 errors.
    In 1974 Dave Concepcion also won the NL Gold Glove award for shortstops.
    "Hey...Dad. Wanna Have A Catch?" Kevin Costner in "Field Of Dreams."

  11. Likes:

    Edd Roush (03-03-2020),Ron Madden (03-03-2020)

  12. #68
    Member Z-Fly's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Cincinnati
    Posts
    1,419

    Re: How ' bout Jose Garcia?

    Quote Originally Posted by MoneyInTheBank View Post
    I'm sorry but I don't think I can ever be convinced more errors is a good thing. Maybe it's semantics but you can argue that it's not necessarily an indicator of a poor defender but I can't get on board with a high error total being a good thing.
    I don't believe that you are sorry, at all.
    WHEN DOES IT STOP!?!?

  13. Likes:

    MoneyInTheBank (03-03-2020)

  14. #69
    Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Posts
    716

    Re: How ' bout Jose Garcia?

    Quote Originally Posted by RedsBaron View Post
    In 1974 Dave Concepcion committed 30 errors.
    In 1974 Dave Concepcion also won the NL Gold Glove award for shortstops.
    In 1999 Rafael Palmeiro won the AL Gold Glove award for First Basemen despite playing only 28 games at the position.

  15. Likes:

    goreds2 (03-03-2020)

  16. #70
    Rally Onion! Chip R's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Cincinnati, OH
    Posts
    40,296

    Re: How ' bout Jose Garcia?

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    There's not a basketball equivalent, but there is a football one: Quarterbacks. You don't see too many "ready" NFL quarterbacks at 21 or 22. Just like you don't see many ready MLB players at 19 or 20. Baseball isn't a physical sport, just like quarterback isn't. You need plenty of athleticism in some way to get there, of course, but you absolutely need the mental side of things, too. Quarterbacks need to know how to read the defenses on top of having the physical abilities. Likewise, hitters in particular, need to have the mental ability to read a pitch quick enough to know what they can do with it on top of having the physical abilities to actually do something with it. Both of those things take time and reps to get. And they are only ones you can realistically get by actually playing against other elite level players because it's just not the same without it. You can't develop that in high school, or even college most of the time because the guys you are playing? Yeah, they can't do what the guys you'll face on Sunday or in the Majors are going to do hardly ever.
    And that's true because every year in the NFL draft we see 21-22 year old guys drafted out of college to be the starting QB for an NFL team. That just doesn't happen in baseball. Once in a blue moon you may get a guy like Brandon Finnegan who played in both the college and MLB World Series. But guys like that are usually pitchers and used in short relief stints where if they mess up they can be taken out immediately. It's even rarer for position players and even those guys played in college except for the aforementioned Catfish Hunter. The only position player I can think of who was called up straight up out of college and played the year after he was drafted was Will Clark. He did all right for himself. I guess what I'm trying to get at is that I think there are certain players who could step into a regular position either out of high school or out of college and do well. I think Junior could have started for the Mariners right away. I think Kerry Wood could have skipped the minors for the Cubs. Acuna, Jr. and Juan Soto probably didn't need any minor league seasoning.

    I know all the objections to this. The major one being that they have to stay in the minors for X number of years so they can learn how to play at a major league level. But the real reason they stay there is because teams want to manipulate service time. Why can 22 year old Kyler Murray come straight out of college and be the starting QB for the Arizona Cardinals and win offensive rookie of the year while a baseball player of similar skills has to wait 2-3 years to play in MLB? I don't know why a team like the Marlins doesn't do this. They don't have anything to lose. If they are good players they are going to lose them sooner but they were going to lose them anyway.
    Quote Originally Posted by Raisor View Post
    I was wrong
    Quote Originally Posted by Raisor View Post
    Chip is right

  17. #71
    Member Ron Madden's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Location
    Cincinnati
    Posts
    11,840

    Re: How ' bout Jose Garcia?

    I never said Garcia has nothing left to prove or that he should make the team this year out of ST.

    I said he could be something special and wanted to know if anyone else thought so, or if I was rushing to judgement.
    Last edited by Ron Madden; 03-03-2020 at 11:27 AM.

  18. Likes:

    GAC (03-04-2020)

  19. #72
    Member CmdrCody's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Posts
    156

    Re: How ' bout Jose Garcia?

    Quote Originally Posted by MoneyInTheBank View Post
    In 1999 Rafael Palmeiro won the AL Gold Glove award for First Basemen despite playing only 28 games at the position.
    That has nothing to do with Concepcions defense in 1974. Palmeiro was mainly a DH who was rewarded for his hitting by idiots. The flaws of how gold gloves used to be awarded has been argued for years.
    Reds fan since 1968 win or lose.

  20. Likes:

    goreds2 (03-03-2020)

  21. #73
    Mon chou Choo vaticanplum's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Pittsburgh
    Posts
    7,656

    Re: How ' bout Jose Garcia?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chip R View Post
    And that's true because every year in the NFL draft we see 21-22 year old guys drafted out of college to be the starting QB for an NFL team. That just doesn't happen in baseball. Once in a blue moon you may get a guy like Brandon Finnegan who played in both the college and MLB World Series. But guys like that are usually pitchers and used in short relief stints where if they mess up they can be taken out immediately. It's even rarer for position players and even those guys played in college except for the aforementioned Catfish Hunter. The only position player I can think of who was called up straight up out of college and played the year after he was drafted was Will Clark. He did all right for himself. I guess what I'm trying to get at is that I think there are certain players who could step into a regular position either out of high school or out of college and do well. I think Junior could have started for the Mariners right away. I think Kerry Wood could have skipped the minors for the Cubs. Acuna, Jr. and Juan Soto probably didn't need any minor league seasoning.

    I know all the objections to this. The major one being that they have to stay in the minors for X number of years so they can learn how to play at a major league level. But the real reason they stay there is because teams want to manipulate service time. Why can 22 year old Kyler Murray come straight out of college and be the starting QB for the Arizona Cardinals and win offensive rookie of the year while a baseball player of similar skills has to wait 2-3 years to play in MLB? I don't know why a team like the Marlins doesn't do this. They don't have anything to lose. If they are good players they are going to lose them sooner but they were going to lose them anyway.
    Genuine question: is there something (anything) to be said for "grooming" a player for an organization? Not for intangibles, but for a specific style of play, means of communication, etc. I think I've always had it in my head that this is a part of time in the minors, albeit a small one, along with also waiting for their bodies to be better developed and trained, particularly for pitchers. But I may be just thinking of old-school Cardinals-type farm systems. I really have no idea how much of a role this plays, at least a quantifiable one. Surely it could vary from organization to organization too.
    There is no such thing as a pitching prospect.

  22. #74
    TyrannoSuarez Wrecks WrongVerb's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Monterey, CA
    Posts
    15,468

    Re: How ' bout Jose Garcia?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chip R View Post
    And that's true because every year in the NFL draft we see 21-22 year old guys drafted out of college to be the starting QB for an NFL team. That just doesn't happen in baseball. Once in a blue moon you may get a guy like Brandon Finnegan who played in both the college and MLB World Series. But guys like that are usually pitchers and used in short relief stints where if they mess up they can be taken out immediately. It's even rarer for position players and even those guys played in college except for the aforementioned Catfish Hunter. The only position player I can think of who was called up straight up out of college and played the year after he was drafted was Will Clark. He did all right for himself. I guess what I'm trying to get at is that I think there are certain players who could step into a regular position either out of high school or out of college and do well. I think Junior could have started for the Mariners right away. I think Kerry Wood could have skipped the minors for the Cubs. Acuna, Jr. and Juan Soto probably didn't need any minor league seasoning.

    I know all the objections to this. The major one being that they have to stay in the minors for X number of years so they can learn how to play at a major league level. But the real reason they stay there is because teams want to manipulate service time. Why can 22 year old Kyler Murray come straight out of college and be the starting QB for the Arizona Cardinals and win offensive rookie of the year while a baseball player of similar skills has to wait 2-3 years to play in MLB? I don't know why a team like the Marlins doesn't do this. They don't have anything to lose. If they are good players they are going to lose them sooner but they were going to lose them anyway.
    Baseball is hard.

    Also, this is the list of quarterbacks drafted in 2019. You'll note that Murray was quite the exception, as opposed to the rule.

    Pass Pass Pass Pass Pass
    Rnd Pick Tm Player Pos Age To G Cmp Att Yds TD Int
    1 1 ARI Kyler Murray QB 22 2019 16 349 542 3722 20 12
    1 6 NYG Daniel Jones QB 22 2019 13 284 459 3027 24 12
    1 15 WAS Dwayne Haskins QB 22 2019 9 119 203 1365 7 7
    2 42 DEN Drew Lock QB 22 2019 5 100 156 1020 7 3
    3 100 CAR Will Grier QB 24 2019 2 28 52 228 0 4
    4 104 CIN Ryan Finley QB 24 2019 3 41 87 474 2 2
    4 133 NWE Jarrett Stidham QB 23 2019 3 2 4 14 0 1
    5 166 LAC Easton Stick QB 23
    5 167 PHI Clayton Thorson QB 23
    6 178 JAX Gardner Minshew QB 23 2019 14 285 470 3271 21 6
    6 197 BAL Trace McSorley QB 24 2019 1 0 0 0 0 0


    Provided by Pro-Football-Reference.com: View Original Table
    Generated 3/3/2020.

    And here's 2018 drafted QBs:

    Pass Pass Pass Pass Pass
    Rnd Pick Tm Player Pos Age G Cmp Att Yds TD Int
    7 249 CIN Logan Woodside QB 23
    7 220 SEA Alex McGough QB 22
    7 219 NWE Danny Etling QB 24
    6 203 JAX Tanner Lee QB 23
    6 199 TEN Luke Falk QB 23 3 47 73 416 0 3
    5 171 DAL Mike White QB 23
    4 108 NYG Kyle Lauletta QB 23 2 0 5 0 0 1
    3 76 PIT Mason Rudolph QB 23 10 176 283 1765 13 9
    1 32 BAL Lamar Jackson QB 21 31 364 571 4328 42 9
    1 10 ARI Josh Rosen QB 21 20 275 502 2845 12 19
    1 7 BUF Josh Allen QB 22 28 440 781 5163 30 21
    1 3 NYJ Sam Darnold QB 21 26 512 855 5889 36 28
    1 1 CLE Baker Mayfield QB 23 30 627 1020 7552 49 35


    Provided by Pro-Football-Reference.com: View Original Table
    Generated 3/3/2020.
    Last edited by WrongVerb; 03-03-2020 at 11:10 AM.
    Gratitude + Forgiveness = Happiness

    216,784 (+932)

  23. #75
    Sprinkles are for winners dougdirt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Posts
    49,317

    Re: How ' bout Jose Garcia?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chip R View Post
    And that's true because every year in the NFL draft we see 21-22 year old guys drafted out of college to be the starting QB for an NFL team. That just doesn't happen in baseball. Once in a blue moon you may get a guy like Brandon Finnegan who played in both the college and MLB World Series. But guys like that are usually pitchers and used in short relief stints where if they mess up they can be taken out immediately. It's even rarer for position players and even those guys played in college except for the aforementioned Catfish Hunter. The only position player I can think of who was called up straight up out of college and played the year after he was drafted was Will Clark. He did all right for himself. I guess what I'm trying to get at is that I think there are certain players who could step into a regular position either out of high school or out of college and do well. I think Junior could have started for the Mariners right away. I think Kerry Wood could have skipped the minors for the Cubs. Acuna, Jr. and Juan Soto probably didn't need any minor league seasoning.

    I know all the objections to this. The major one being that they have to stay in the minors for X number of years so they can learn how to play at a major league level. But the real reason they stay there is because teams want to manipulate service time. Why can 22 year old Kyler Murray come straight out of college and be the starting QB for the Arizona Cardinals and win offensive rookie of the year while a baseball player of similar skills has to wait 2-3 years to play in MLB? I don't know why a team like the Marlins doesn't do this. They don't have anything to lose. If they are good players they are going to lose them sooner but they were going to lose them anyway.
    I fully believe teams are out to manipulate service time, but that's not why they are keeping guys in the minors for years. It's because they simply aren't ready.

    Acuna Jr and Soto signed at age 16. They absolutely needed minor league seasoning.

    The game today is a lot harder than the game 25+ years ago. Velocity alone is a massive difference maker. But so is the fact that more than 10 guys throw a good cutter, too. Guys are throwing sliders today that are faster than most fastballs 30 years ago. The game has changed. It's harder to hit today than ever before.

    Kyler Murray, much like Acuna is an outlier. The guys throughout baseball history who showed up in the Majors at age 19 are almost all Hall of Famers, and most of the ones that aren't sure looked like they would be for the first 7-8 years of their careers. Just because Mike Trout or Ken Griffey Jr - two of the greatest players to ever walk this planet, were able of playing at a high level in the Major Leagues at 19/20 doesn't mean most guys are. There's a reason they are inner-circle kind of hall of famers.

  24. Likes:

    *BaseClogger* (03-04-2020),Ron Madden (03-03-2020)


Turn Off Ads?

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Board Moderators may, at their discretion and judgment, delete and/or edit any messages that violate any of the following guidelines: 1. Explicit references to alleged illegal or unlawful acts. 2. Graphic sexual descriptions. 3. Racial or ethnic slurs. 4. Use of edgy language (including masked profanity). 5. Direct personal attacks, flames, fights, trolling, baiting, name-calling, general nuisance, excessive player criticism or anything along those lines. 6. Posting spam. 7. Each person may have only one user account. It is fine to be critical here - that's what this board is for. But let's not beat a subject or a player to death, please.

Thank you, and most importantly, enjoy yourselves!


RedsZone.com is a privately owned website and is not affiliated with the Cincinnati Reds or Major League Baseball


Contact us: Boss | GIK | cumberlandreds | Gallen5862 | Kinsm | Plus Plus | Powel Crosley | RedlegJake | The Operator