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Thread: Cinci Enquirer: Pick your All-Time Reds team

  1. #46
    Posting in Dynarama M2's Avatar
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    Re: Cinci Enquirer: Pick your All-Time Reds team

    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenix2 View Post
    And that's OK. Groh played 8+ years with the Reds. Good years but still rather run of the mill. There IS a reason you never heard of him. He played more years with the Giants post Reds. If he got more years, or a whole career, in with the Reds he may have a stronger case. Both Perez and Rose in 5 and 4 years, respectively, were much better stand out players.
    Groh was one of the best players in the NL. If they had been giving out MVP awards when he was playing, he'd have been a perennial contender. Five straight seasons finishing 2nd or 3rd in WAR in the league (all with the Reds). Led the NL in OPS in 1919 (the year the Reds won their first World Series), 2nd in 1918. As WOY mentioned, he played the vast majority of his career with the Reds (don't know where you game up with that Giants line). Supposedly dynamite glove too. If you hadn't heard of him, that's on you.

    I get the argument for Perez. Don't agree with it, but I get it. Rose played his best baseball in the OF.
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  4. #47
    Goober GAC's Avatar
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    Re: Cinci Enquirer: Pick your All-Time Reds team

    People can throw all the stones at me they want (lol) ... but I'd vote for Pinson in CF over Jr. In fact, Jr wouldn't be one of my AS Red's OFers. No offense to Jr, but he spent the bulk of his time, building his career, as an M, and his career in Cincy was pretty injury-marred.

    Davis, Pinson, Robinson
    Last edited by GAC; 04-07-2020 at 06:40 AM.
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  6. #48
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    Re: Cinci Enquirer: Pick your All-Time Reds team

    Quote Originally Posted by GAC View Post
    People can throw all the stones at me they want (lol) ... but I'd vote for Pinson in CF over Jr. In fact, Jr wouldn't be one of my AS Red's OFers. No offense to Jr, but he spent the bulk of his time, building his career, as an M, and his career in Cincy was pretty injury-marred.

    Davis, Pinson, Robinson
    Pinson over Jr. in CF is an easy pick. Jr.'s time in Cincinnati was nothing great. In fact, Cesar Geronimo (13.2 WAR) ranks ahead of Jr. (12.8 WAR), and both played nine seasons with the club.
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  8. #49
    Big Red Machine RedsBaron's Avatar
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    Re: Cinci Enquirer: Pick your All-Time Reds team

    I agree that Vada Pinson is an easy pick over Ken Griffey Jr. in CF. Frank Robinson is an absolute must in rightfield. The rest of the outfield for me depends in part upon whether or not I put Pete Rose in the outfield. If I do, then I may platoon Pinson and Eric Davis in CF. If I don't, then I've been tempted to put George Foster in leftfield, as I have a weakness for guys who hit 52 HRs in one season. However, in reviewing their stats I was somewhat surprised to find that Pinson had a slightly higher five year peak than Foster. Career wise Pinson as a Red put up 47.7 WAR to Foster's 39.5-no surprise. For one season, Foster's 8.4 WAR in 1977 tops any single season by Vada, whose high was 7.5 in 1961-again no surprise. For a five year stretch of seasons, which is what I regard to be more of a consistent peak, Pinson from 1959 through 1963 had 6.5, 5.6, 7.5, 4.7 and 6.4, for 30.7 total WAR, a seasonal average of 6.14. Foster's best five year stretch was 1975 through 1979, 4.8, 5.9, 8.4, 4.9 and 5.1, for 29.1 total WAR, a seasonal average of 5.82-that surprised me.
    I checked on the best five year stretch for Pete Rose and Eric Davis.
    Davis, who had 30.6 career WAR as a Red, had a five year peak between 1986 and 1990 of 5.3, 7.9, 4.4, 2.9 and 3.3, for total WAR in those seasons of 23.8, a season average of 4.76, well below Pinson and Foster.
    Rose had a five year stretch between 1969 and 1973 of 6.6, 4.8, 5.1, 6.1 and 8.3, for total WAR in those five seasons of 30.9, a seasonal average of 6.18, a hair above Vada. If you instead use the five year stretch from 1972 through 1976, the latter two years being seasons where Rose played at third, he had 6.1, 8.3, 5.9, 4.1 and 7.0, a total of 31.4 and an average of 6.28. Part of Rose's greatness as a player wasn't that he had a single season peak as high as many other superstars-it was that he more or less maintained his peak level for a ridiculously long time.
    Last edited by RedsBaron; 04-07-2020 at 12:43 PM. Reason: added stats for Davis and Rose; and corrected typos
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  10. #50
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    Re: Cinci Enquirer: Pick your All-Time Reds team

    Quote Originally Posted by RedsBaron View Post
    I agree that Vada Pinson is an easy pick over Ken Griffey Jr. in CF. Frank Robinson is an absolute must in rightfield. The rest of the outfield for me depends in part upon whether or not I put Pete Rose in the outfield. If I do, then I may platoon Pinson and Eric Davis in CF. If I don't, then I've been tempted to put George Foster in leftfield, as I have a weakness for guys who hit 52 HRs in one season. However, in reviewing their stats I was somewhat surprised to find that Pinson had a slightly higher five year peak than Foster. Career wise Pinson as a Red put up 47.7 WAR to Foster's 39.5-no surprise. For one season, Foster's 8.4 WAR in 1977 tops any single season by Vada, whose high was 7.5 in 1961-again no surprise. For a five year stretch of seasons, which is what I regard to be more of a consistent peak, Pinson from 1959 through 1963 had 6.5, 5.6, 7.5, 4.7 and 6.4, for 30.7 total WAR, a seasonal average of 6.14. Foster's best five year stretch was 1975 through 1979, 4.8, 5.9, 8.4, 4.9 and 5.1, for 29.1 total WAR, a seasonal average of 5.82-that surprised me.
    I checked on the best five year stretch for Pete Rose and Eric Davis.
    Davis, who had 30.6 career WAR as a Red, had a five year peak between 1986 and 1990 of 5.3, 7.9, 4.4, 2.9 and 3.3, for total WAR in those seasons of 23.8, a season average of 4.76, well below Pinson and Foster.
    Rose had a five year stretch between 1969 and 1973 of 6.6, 4.8, 5.1, 6.1 and 8.3, for total WAR in those five seasons of 30.9, a seasonal average of 6.18, a hair above Vada. If you instead us the five year stretch from 1972 through 1976, the latter two years being seasons where Rose played at third, he had 6.1, 8.3, 5.9, 4.1 and 7.0, a total of 31.4 and an average of 6.28. Part of Rose's greatness as a player wasn't that he had a single season peak as high as many other superstars-it was that he more less maintained his peak level for a ridiculously long time.
    There is no question that Rose needs to be on the team. The only question is whether it's in the OF or at 3B. I agree with M2 that he was better as an OF, but the real question is whether you like one of the other OF more than Perez or Groh. Personally, I think Robinson, Pinson and Roush more deserving than Perez and Groh, so Pete plays 3B though I could be talked into Perez at 3B and Pinson on the bench. I say make Perez the DH and take them both.
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  12. #51
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    Re: Cinci Enquirer: Pick your All-Time Reds team

    Just to throw a log on the fire, even though he only played a brief time in Cincinnati and became a national sensation in Chicago and Boston, baseball's first bona fide superstar (King Kelly) did play for the Reds. I get the Reds have no more claim on him than they do Sam Crawford, but the American Association Cincinnati team of 1891 was known as Kelly's Killers.

    And Kelly played every position. So, he could be a one-man bench.
    Last edited by M2; 04-07-2020 at 06:01 PM.
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  14. #52
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    Re: Cinci Enquirer: Pick your All-Time Reds team

    For the first 8 years of his career, Pinson was about as good as anybody I've seen, except Robinson, in a Reds uniform. He's my CF, though I think an extraordinarily good case can be made for Davis and Roush.

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    Re: Cinci Enquirer: Pick your All-Time Reds team

    Would this exercise be easier and have more agreement if we made a rule that each player had to be a better than average fielder at his position(other than pitcher)?

    If so, I could easily put Suarez at 3rd base and move on from there. Perez would probably then be our 1st baseman(not sure how good Klu was at fielding). Robinson, Morgan, Larkin and Bench would be no-brainers. That would leave left and center field to argue about and I would probably insert either Pinson or Davis in Center. Left field would be a tough one. Don't really think Foster was better than average with the glove and arm.

    This thread has some crossover with the 27 yanks vs 75 Reds thread so I thought I'd put this statement here. While we can argue the greatest 8 lineups in history and the Big Red Machine is certainly toward the top in that argument, when it comes to fielding and hitting, no team can touch us. Other than Rose at 3rd base, we had no weaknesses with the glove.
    Last edited by foster15; 04-07-2020 at 03:59 PM.

  16. #54
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    Re: Cinci Enquirer: Pick your All-Time Reds team

    How about the best Reds team that appeared in 600-2000 PA's?

    These guys are in order by their raw OPS number (not vs league) Only 1882-2019

    Code:
    Outfielder		PA
    
    Kevin Mitchell		874
    Kal Daniels		1398
    Babe Herman		1449
    Shin-Soo Choo		712
    Mike Donlin		978
    Greg Vaughn		643
    Bernie Carbo		864
    Sam Crawford		1725
    Austin Kearns		1835
    Mike Cameron		636
    Chick Hafey		1836
    Hank Sauer		924
     
     
    3rd base 
    
    Willie Greene		1490
    Don Hoak		1082
    Scott Rolen		1298
    Buddy Bell		1599
    Bill Werber		1847
    Ray Knight		1883
    
     
    SS
    
    Felipe Lopez		1566
    Jose Peraza		939
    Jeff Keppinger		778
    Alex Gonzalez		700
    Buck Herzog		1524
    
    2b
    
    Scooter Gennett		1207
    Tony Cuccinello		639
    Todd Walker		964
    Mariano Duncan		903
    D'Angelo Jimenez	1102
    Lew Fonseca		955
    Bill Doran		933
    Connie Ryan		986
    George Grantham	        867
    
    
    1b
    
    Rube Bressler		986
    Scott Hatteberg		1017
    George Crowe		1081
    Buck Ewing		765
    George Kelly		1523
    Hal Chase		1480
    
     
    
    Catcher
    
    Smoky Burgess		1241
    Don Pavletich		833
    David Ross		817
    Ramon Hernandez	        1011
    Javier Valentin		1086
    Andy Seminick		1126
    Ray Mueller		1899
    Devin Mesoraco		1345
    Ryan Hanigan		1580
    Clyde Sukeforth		1103
    Bo Diaz			1695

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  18. #55
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    Re: Cinci Enquirer: Pick your All-Time Reds team

    WOY,
    Like the idea. Good to see Don Hoak, George Crowe, and Smokey Burgess remembered. Should Jerry Lynch go on the outfield list?

  19. #56
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    Re: Cinci Enquirer: Pick your All-Time Reds team

    Quote Originally Posted by HokieRed View Post
    WOY,
    Like the idea. Good to see Don Hoak, George Crowe, and Smokey Burgess remembered. Should Jerry Lynch go on the outfield list?
    Yes, 1700 pa's or so

  20. #57
    Posting in Dynarama M2's Avatar
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    Re: Cinci Enquirer: Pick your All-Time Reds team

    Billy Werber has to be the 3B on that lower PA team. He showed up, gave the Reds a top tier leadoff hitter, and the Reds won two pennants and a WS title.
    Friends don't let friends fWAR.

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  21. #58
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    Re: Cinci Enquirer: Pick your All-Time Reds team

    Quote Originally Posted by M2 View Post
    Billy Werber has to be the 3B on that lower PA team. He showed up, gave the Reds a top tier leadoff hitter, and the Reds won two pennants and a WS title.
    He was on the source list, he should be there yes

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    Re: Cinci Enquirer: Pick your All-Time Reds team

    should rafael santo domingo be there

  23. #60
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    Re: Cinci Enquirer: Pick your All-Time Reds team

    Quote Originally Posted by M2 View Post
    Groh was one of the best players in the NL. If they had been giving out MVP awards when he was playing, he'd have been a perennial contender. Five straight seasons finishing 2nd or 3rd in WAR in the league (all with the Reds). Led the NL in OPS in 1919 (the year the Reds won their first World Series), 2nd in 1918. As WOY mentioned, he played the vast majority of his career with the Reds (don't know where you game up with that Giants line). Supposedly dynamite glove too. If you hadn't heard of him, that's on you.

    I get the argument for Perez. Don't agree with it, but I get it. Rose played his best baseball in the OF.
    I'm a big time Heinie Groh guy. He's better than a decent chunk of MLB HOF third baseman. And with the dearth of third baseman in the Hall, one can actually make an argument that Groh belongs in Cooperstown. That case would get further bolstered by his defensive prowess too. Alas, there's no living memory of him so there's never going to be much of a push to get him in Cooperstown.
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