Cinci Enquirer: Pick your All-Time Reds team

[dfs]

I think Bench, Morgan, Larkin, Robinson are easy.

I'll take Votto at first and Pete at third. If you tell me you want to put Tony in there and move Pete to left, I won't argue with you. Let's hope Suarez enters the discussion.

With all due respect to Pinson and Junior, Eric Davis was unreal as a red. He's got my vote for cf. I won't tell you you're wrong if you choose either of the other two.

And then....then there's left field. I'll just out with it....Kevin Mitchell would be my choice. Look at his production as a Red and it's like video game numbers. It's not a long career, but nobody matches up with that. You put Dunn in there and I'll just smile and nod.

[mth123]

Some tough choices. You basically have 7 guys for 3 spots. If we assume Bench, Votto, Morgan, Larkin and Robinson are locks, that leaves 3B and two OF spots for:

Pete Rose - 19YRs. 12344PAs, 124 OPS+. Versatility.
Tony Perez - 16 YRs, 7630 PAs, 127 OPS+, brutal defender at 3B and slow but smart on the bases
Heinie Groh - 9Yrs, 5161 PAs, 130 OPS+, no idea on the rest
Edd Roush - 12YRs, 5963PA, 135OPS+, PLayed CF
Vada Pinson - 11YRS, 6851PAs. 119OPS+, very good baserunner and defender
Eric Davis - 9Yrs, 3819 PA, 137 OPS+, Fantastic defender and huge positive on the bases.
George Foster - 11YRs, 5010 PAs, 140 OPS+

Form here it's what you value. I think PAs as a Red are pretty important, so I'd take Rose at 3B with Pinson and Roush in the OF. Davis was probably the best player for one particular game, but his actual time on the field was a lot less than the others.

If I could add a DH, I'd take Perez (or maybe move Votto there).

Foster, Groh and especially Davis were all great, but for me, they lose out on sheer volume on the field. They would be on my bench with Dave Concepcion and Ernie Lombardi.

[Old school 1983]

My team. If I had to pick for players at their peak and were getting them for a season.

C: Bench
1B: Klu
2b: Morgan
3b: Perez
SS: Larkin
CF: Davis
LF: Foster
RF: Robinson

If I had to take more of a whole career approach:

C: Bench
1b: Votto
2b: Morgan
3b: Perez
SS: Larkin
CF: Pinson
LF: Rose
RF: Robinson

[RedsBaron]

C-Johnny Bench
1B-Joey Votto
2B-Joe Morgan
SS-Barry Larkin
3B-Tony Perez
LF-Pete Rose
CF-Eric Davis (with Vada Pinson in reserve)
RF-Frank Robinson
DH-George Foster and Ted Kluzewski (yeah, a DH. Other than the NL most of baseball uses one and it lets me get Foster or Big Klu in the lineup)

SP-Bucky Walters, Tom Seaver, Jim Maloney, Jose Rijo, Johnny Cueto
RP-Chapman, Dibble, Franco, Borbon, Carroll, Abernathy, Granger, Eastwick, Brantley

[Bourgeois Zee]

People been sleeping on Heinie Groh.

Among the things that would only be said on RedsZone, this may be at the top.

[westofyou]

C- Bench
1B - Votto
2B - Morgan
SS - Larkin
3B - Groh
RF - Robinson
CF - Davis
LF - Rose

CF is the tough one. Can't really argue against picking Pinson or Roush. Yet Davis put up video game numbers during his 1986-90 run (143 OPS+) and then had maybe the most unexpected comeback ever in 1996. Most electric player I've ever seen.

People been sleeping on Heinie Groh.

This would be mine as well

I'd have Pinson/Lombardi/Perez/Davey/Roush/Klu on the bench

[Bourgeois Zee]

I voted Foster, but having heard the arguments, would probably change my vote to ED.

After having done some research, there are a few things I didn't realize.

1. Pete Rose was an elite defender in LF. He was horrid elsewhere.

2. Eric Davis wasn't a great defender in CF, but his speed score is ridiculous.

3. George Foster was better with the glove than I thought he was. He led all MLB LF in TZ twice and was consistently above average.

4. Foster only had a three point advantage on Davis in OPS+, but enjoyed a 16 point advantage over Rose and a 10-point bump on Groh.

5. Rose's base running often hurt the Reds more than it helped. Typically, more than Foster's.

[westofyou]

I voted Foster, but having heard the arguments, would probably change my vote to ED.

After having done some research, there are a few things I didn't realize.

1. Pete Rose was an elite defender in LF. He was horrid elsewhere.

2. Eric Davis wasn't a great defender in CF, but his speed score is ridiculous.

3. George Foster was better with the glove than I thought he was. He led all MLB LF in TZ twice and was consistently above average.

4. Foster only had a three point advantage on Davis in OPS+, but enjoyed a 16 point advantage over Rose and a 10-point bump on Groh.

5. Rose's base running often hurt the Reds more than it helped. Typically, more than Foster's.

Pete was elite in Crosley but once he got on carpet and hit thirty it was over

[cumberlandreds]

Here's mine for the starting 8:

C Bench Complete no brainer
1B Votto I hated to go against Perez but Votto was a better all around hitter
2B Morgan Maybe the best all around player I have seen with the Reds. For a few seasons he could do it all.
SS Larkin Again I hated to go against Concepcion but Larkin is a HOFer and the key to the Reds of the late 80's and into the 90's.
3B Rose I know he played all over but Rose had to go here. Not that many 3B to choose from. Maybe Suarez if he has some more really good years like last year.
OF Eric Davis Best all around athlete I have seen as a Red. Sure fire HOF er if not for injuries.
OF Frank Robinson. Best player for the Reds in the early 60's. MVP and HOFer. Just a travesty he was traded.
OF Foster I am going with him for the natural power effect. For a few seasons he was just awesome. 1977 was magnificent.

[RedsFanInMS]

1B-Votto
2B-Morgan
SS-Concepcion(I really,really,really love Barry Larkin, but as a youngster in Little League when Dave was in his prime and a Shortstop to boot, Davey C is my favorite Red of all-time. Period)
3B-Rose
RF-Foster
CF-Eric D.
LF-Frank R.
C-Bench(best ever it's an embarrassment that Reds fans don't vote him in 100%)
SP-Rijo, Seaver, Cueto, Gullett, Soto
RP-Dibble, Franco, Chapman, Bourbon, Cowboy(Mississippi State man like myself)
Manager-Sparky
Coaches-Sugar Bear Scherger, Billy Hatcher

[RedlegJake]

1B Kluzewski. Perez and Votto were considered but Klu's prime years he was unmatched by the other two. I think he's getting really short shrift in this thread. His numbers in his 5 top years were unbelievable.
2B Morgan. No one else is even close, even Pete pales in comparison, especilly his fielding.
SS Larkin. Concepcion, Cardenas, McMillan 2nd, 3rd and 4th. Hans Lobert is the forgotten man but he had his best years with Philly.
3B Perez. Suarez, Rose, Groh 2nd and 3rd and 4th. Buddy Bell was solid, too, but like Lobert, had his best years with another team.
C Bench. Come on, like Morgan this is a slam dunk. Might mention Bubbles Hargrave, who is a bit overlooked.
CF Roush. Went with the Hall of Famer although his numbers are more the last of the great deadballers rather than modern stats. Still he is an icon in Reds history. Griffey, Davis and Pinson. Pinson: career cut short, ditto Davis. Junior's best with Seattle.
RF Robinson. Not much up for debate here. Griffey, Seymour: One year wonder. Griffey Sr - not enough power.
LF Pinson. Yeah I switched his position. He was unbelievable to those of us who saw him in person, had he not been hampered later by back injuries he'd be a HOFer. Foster had power and was better all round than he's credited for but he wasn't Vada in those early years of V's career.
SP Rixey. Luque. Derringer, Walters, Blackwell, Maloney, Seaver, Cueto, Soto, Rijo, Castillo. Walters would be my pick I guess but all of them are great. Castillo is still beginning, Tom Terrific was best with the Mets, Derringer had some pretty poor years(more the fault of the team those early years), Rixey was a workhorse, Luque may have been the best of all in his peak years.
RP. Chapman, Franco, Borbon, Carroll. Chapman just on stuff and because he was the most fun to watch (though Borbon was a character, too).
My bench would be assembled from those mentioned and not picked headed by Rose for versatility.

[Betterread]

C - Bench
1B - Votto
2B - Morgan
SS - Larkin
3B - Rose
OF - Frank Robinson, Junior, Eric Davis (followed by Foster, Jay Bruce, Dave Parker)
DH - Adam Dunn
Bench (most fun part) - Josh Hamilton, Kevin Mitchell, Ron Gant, Karl Daniels
SP - Rijo, Cueto, Soto, Nolan, Gullett
RP - Chapman, Dibble, Charlton, Franco

[westofyou]

1B Kluzewski. Perez and Votto were considered but Klu's prime years he was unmatched by the other two. I think he's getting really short shrift in this thread. His numbers in his 5 top years were unbelievable.

Hmmm Let's find out... Klu's peak was essentially 5 years, so from what I see if you are just going peak there is an argument if you are going career there is not

Best 5 year run for a Reds 1b Runs created

CINCINNATI REDS
5 YEAR SPANS
MODERN (1900-)
1B
AVERAGE vs. the league average  
OBA vs. the league average  
SLG vs. the league average  
HOMERUNS vs. the league average  
EXTRA BASE HITS vs. the league average  

RUNS CREATED                  YEARS          RC         AVG/LG    OBA/LG    SLG/LG     HR/LG    EBH/LG   
1    Joey Votto               2009-13        621       .056       .101       .128         52        114   
2    Joey Votto               2015-19        607       .044       .095       .069         24         48   
3    Ted Kluszewski           1952-56        603       .042       .040       .155        105        101   
4    Joey Votto               2013-17        602       .053       .115       .107         46         70   
5    Joey Votto               2008-12        589       .051       .083       .128         52        118   
6    Ted Kluszewski           1951-55        574       .033       .027       .126         87         98   
7    Joey Votto               2014-18        565       .049       .108       .088         32         57   
8    Joey Votto               2012-16        554       .054       .117       .097         32         77   
9    Joey Votto               2011-15        548       .049       .113       .099         33         83   
10   Joey Votto               2010-14        546       .051       .104       .113         40         94

[mth123]

I loved Klu, Tony Perez was my favorite player ever. Still, there is no way that anyone should be playing 1B on this team other than Joey Votto. It's not really close IMO.

[Bob Sheed]

I loved Klu, Tony Perez was my favorite player ever. Still, there is no way that anyone should be playing 1B on this team other than Joey Votto. It's not really close IMO.

Perez hit .328 at age 43.

What do you think Votto will hit at 43?

(I agree though, I'd take Votto in his prime over Perez in his prime)

https://www.baseball-reference.com/p...ottojo01.shtml
https://www.baseball-reference.com/p...erezto01.shtml