Cinci Enquirer: Pick your All-Time Reds team

[foster15]

I cannot believe so many people are putting Perez at 3B. He was a terrible 3rd baseman. As bad if not worse than Rose which IMO puts Rose there over him since Rose has 1st ballot HOF numbers and Perez didn't.

Also, I can't argue with Robinson in right. But very surprised when people are picking runner-ups for the position, Dave Parker is not mentioned.

[westofyou]

I cannot believe so many people are putting Perez at 3B. He was a terrible 3rd baseman. As bad if not worse than Rose which IMO puts Rose there over him since Rose has 1st ballot HOF numbers and Perez didn't.

Also, I can't argue with Robinson in right. But very surprised when people are picking runner-ups for the position, Dave Parker is not mentioned.

I'd pick Ival Goodman over Parker as a RF

[Big Klu]

I'd pick Ival Goodman over Parker as a RF

I think Ival Goodman was the first Red ever to hit 30 HR's in a season.

[foster15]

I'd pick Ival Goodman over Parker as a RF

First time I saw his name mentioned.

But back to my point about Perez. Remember the Reds experimented with Dan Driessen at 3rd base and he flopped so bad that we had to put a bum like John Vukovich there to start in 1975. If Perez was a decent 3rd baseman they would've just moved him back there and put Driessen at 1st.

[westofyou]

First time I saw his name mentioned.

But back to my point about Perez. Remember the Reds experimented with Dan Driessen at 3rd base and he flopped so bad that we had to put a bum like John Vukovich there to start in 1975. If Perez was a decent 3rd baseman they would've just moved him back there and put Driessen at 1st.

Perez was a horrid third baseman, an error machine

[westofyou]

I think Ival Goodman was the first Red ever to hit 30 HR's in a season.

Correct he also led the league in triples twice, his 1938 and 39 seasons were very good

[RedsBaron]

The argument for Tony Perez as third baseman is fairly simple: In his five seasons as the Reds primary third baseman, 1967 through 1971, bad glove and all, Perez put up WAR numbers of 3.2, 5.9, 6.0, 7.2 and 4.1. Those numbers compare well with any other third baseman in Reds history.

[Bruce Berenyi]

how many games did wayne krenchicki start at 3rd

[M2]

The argument for Tony Perez as third baseman is fairly simple: In his five seasons as the Reds primary third baseman, 1967 through 1971, bad glove and all, Perez put up WAR numbers of 3.2, 5.9, 6.0, 7.2 and 4.1. Those numbers compare well with any other third baseman in Reds history.

Fair point, though Groh still ranks ahead of him. Here's a look at the five-year peaks of various Reds 3Bs.

Player - Years - WAR - Average WAR/year

Heinie Groh - 1915-1919 - 28.0 - 5.6
Tony Perez - 1967-1971 - 26.4 - 5.28
Pete Rose - 1975-78* - 17.4 - 4.35
Chris Sabo - 1988-1992 - 15.5 - 3.1
Eugenio Suarez - 2015-2019 - 14.1 - 2.82
Todd Frazier - 2012-2015* - 13.4 - 3.35
Aaron Boone - 1999-2003** - 13.2 - 2.64
Billy Werber - 1939-1941*** - 10.2 - 3.4

* - Only a 4-year sample
** - Includes 1/3 of a season in 2003 after his trade to the Yankees
*** - Only a 3-year sample

[Old school 1983]

1B Kluzewski. Perez and Votto were considered but Klu's prime years he was unmatched by the other two. I think he's getting really short shrift in this thread. His numbers in his 5 top years were unbelievable.
2B Morgan. No one else is even close, even Pete pales in comparison, especilly his fielding.
SS Larkin. Concepcion, Cardenas, McMillan 2nd, 3rd and 4th. Hans Lobert is the forgotten man but he had his best years with Philly.
3B Perez. Suarez, Rose, Groh 2nd and 3rd and 4th. Buddy Bell was solid, too, but like Lobert, had his best years with another team.
C Bench. Come on, like Morgan this is a slam dunk. Might mention Bubbles Hargrave, who is a bit overlooked.
CF Roush. Went with the Hall of Famer although his numbers are more the last of the great deadballers rather than modern stats. Still he is an icon in Reds history. Griffey, Davis and Pinson. Pinson: career cut short, ditto Davis. Junior's best with Seattle.
RF Robinson. Not much up for debate here. Griffey, Seymour: One year wonder. Griffey Sr - not enough power.
LF Pinson. Yeah I switched his position. He was unbelievable to those of us who saw him in person, had he not been hampered later by back injuries he'd be a HOFer. Foster had power and was better all round than he's credited for but he wasn't Vada in those early years of V's career.
SP Rixey. Luque. Derringer, Walters, Blackwell, Maloney, Seaver, Cueto, Soto, Rijo, Castillo. Walters would be my pick I guess but all of them are great. Castillo is still beginning, Tom Terrific was best with the Mets, Derringer had some pretty poor years(more the fault of the team those early years), Rixey was a workhorse, Luque may have been the best of all in his peak years.
RP. Chapman, Franco, Borbon, Carroll. Chapman just on stuff and because he was the most fun to watch (though Borbon was a character, too).
My bench would be assembled from those mentioned and not picked headed by Rose for versatility.

Agree with you on Klu 100%.

[Old school 1983]

Fair point, though Groh still ranks ahead of him. Here's a look at the five-year peaks of various Reds 3Bs.

Player - Years - WAR - Average WAR/year

Heinie Groh - 1915-1919 - 28.0 - 5.6
Tony Perez - 1967-1971 - 26.4 - 5.28
Pete Rose - 1975-78* - 17.4 - 4.35
Chris Sabo - 1988-1992 - 15.5 - 3.1
Eugenio Suarez - 2015-2019 - 14.1 - 2.82
Todd Frazier - 2012-2015* - 13.4 - 3.35
Aaron Boone - 1999-2003** - 13.2 - 2.64
Billy Werber - 1939-1941*** - 10.2 - 3.4

* - Only a 4-year sample
** - Includes 1/3 of a season in 2003 after his trade to the Yankees
*** - Only a 3-year sample

Groh isn’t getting much love. It was neck and neck between him and Tony. I actually went back and forth deleting and swapping their names in my post. I took Perez because his top two WAR seasons at 3b were higher than Groh’s. Groh has a definite argument for the spot. And come on. Bottle bat.

Side question. Maybe WoY would know. Is the bottle bat still legal to use?

[Phoenix2]

Groh isn’t getting much love. It was neck and neck between him and Tony. I actually went back and forth deleting and swapping their names in my post. I took Perez because his top two WAR seasons at 3b were higher than Groh’s. Groh has a definite argument for the spot. And come on. Bottle bat.

Side question. Maybe WoY would know. Is the bottle bat still legal to use?

And that's OK. Groh played 8+ years with the Reds. Good years but still rather run of the mill. There IS a reason you never heard of him. He played more years with the Giants post Reds. If he got more years, or a whole career, in with the Reds he may have a stronger case. Both Perez and Rose in 5 and 4 years, respectively, were much better stand out players.

[RedsBaron]

And that's OK. Groh played 8+ years with the Reds. Good years but still rather run of the mill. There IS a reason you never heard of him. He played more years with the Giants post Reds. If he got more years, or a whole career, in with the Reds he may have a stronger case. Both Perez and Rose in 5 and 4 years, respectively, were much better stand out players.

I haven't weighed in the debate going on in another thread regarding how players from many decades ago compare to modern players. In general I believe that we cannot know for certain how much better or worse players in one era were/are compared to those in another. I do believe the quality of play is somewhat better today than in decades past but to what degree I am uncertain. Because of this belief if two players from two very different eras appear to be close to each other statistically I give the benefit of the doubt to the more modern player.
In the comparison between Groh and Perez, we are comparing two players relatively close in WAR at their peak with a slight edge to Groh. However Groh had his peak in the 1910s while Perez had his peak a half century later. I'm not certain how much better and demanding MLB was in the late 1960s-early 1970s---but I absolutely believe the quality of play was better, enough so that I absolutely believe that Tony Perez was a better player than Groh. If I was putting together a Reds team and to choose between the two of them to play third I would select The Big Dog without hesitation.

[Old school 1983]

And that's OK. Groh played 8+ years with the Reds. Good years but still rather run of the mill. There IS a reason you never heard of him. He played more years with the Giants post Reds. If he got more years, or a whole career, in with the Reds he may have a stronger case. Both Perez and Rose in 5 and 4 years, respectively, were much better stand out players.

Idk if it was a collective you, if so, I apologize. I have heard of Groh prior to this discussion. However, I’m with you here. In my post I said Perez had the two higher WAR years at peak. That swayed me in the list I made were I said I’d take a guy for one full season. Perez’s linger tenure with the Reds, despite moving to first later, was a consideration in my career based listing.

[westofyou]

And that's OK. Groh played 8+ years with the Reds. Good years but still rather run of the mill. There IS a reason you never heard of him. He played more years with the Giants post Reds. If he got more years, or a whole career, in with the Reds he may have a stronger case. Both Perez and Rose in 5 and 4 years, respectively, were much better stand out players.

He had 5100 PAs with the Reds with an OPS plus of 130 and 1900 with the Giants with one of +90, He was the best player in the NL in 1919. Unsure why he pales so badly in comparison to two guys who played third for the Reds as a secondary position other thane played over 100 years ago