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Thread: 1975 Reds vs 1927 Yankees

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    1975 Reds vs 1927 Yankees

    Appears the best ever AL and NL teams heading for a showdown.

    https://sports.yahoo.com/best-teams-...040153862.html


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    Re: 1975 Reds vs 1927 Yankees

    There's no harm in being number two all time.

    That 1927 Yankees team had two guys with OPS+ over 220(!), two HOF starting pitchers, and two other HOF guys.

    C: Reds (Big-time)
    1B: Yankees (Bigger time)
    2B: Reds
    SS: Reds
    3B: Reds
    LF: Even
    CF: Yankees (Big time)
    RF: Yankees (Bigger time)

    SP1: Yankees (Hoyt)
    SP2: Yankees (Pennock)
    SP3: Yankees (Pipgras)

    Bullpen: Reds (but close)
    Bench: Reds (but negligible)

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    Sprinkles are for winners dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: 1975 Reds vs 1927 Yankees

    One team played watered down competition because it only allowed white dudes to play. That also means that they weren't nearly as good as a team as they could have been. 1975 Reds in a landslide.

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    Re: 1975 Reds vs 1927 Yankees

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    One team played watered down competition because it only allowed white dudes to play. That also means that they weren't nearly as good as a team as they could have been. 1975 Reds in a landslide.
    I hear this argument a lot, and it just doesn't hold water to me.

    Reason being, white dudes were the only ones allowed to play on every MLB team in 1927. It's like saying Babe Ruth was overrated because he never had to hit a 102 mph fastball.

    You have to judge players and teams within the context of the times they played in. You can't pick and choose advantages and disadvantages from different eras.
    "Lemonade requires a significant amount of sugar. Otherwise, you've just made lemon juice."

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    Sprinkles are for winners dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: 1975 Reds vs 1927 Yankees

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Sheed View Post
    I hear this argument a lot, and it just doesn't hold water to me.

    Reason being, white dudes were the only ones allowed to play on every MLB team in 1927. It's like saying Babe Ruth was overrated because he never had to hit a 102 mph fastball.

    You have to judge players and teams within the context of the times they played in. You can't pick and choose advantages and disadvantages from different eras.
    I absolutely can and forever will judge the players pre, roughly 1960 when all teams were integrated to a decent amount, because they absolutely without question were playing against far lesser competition than their counterparts were after that. It's not about Ruth not having to hit 102 MPH. It's about Ruth, and all of the other dudes, not having to play against the best baseball players as a whole within the United States/Venezuela/Mexico/Puerto Rico/Dominican Republic. Ruth was playing, daily, against guys who in a non-segregated world, who would have never played Major League Baseball. They would have been playing minor league baseball. But instead, they were white, so they got to fill out rosters with spots that otherwise would have been given to players that were much better than they were. And that lasted until about 1960. I mean for crying out loud, the Cincinnati Reds didn't have their first African American player until Chuck Harmon in 1954 - a full SEVEN YEARS after Jackie Robinson made his debut. I'm not going to pretend that they weren't playing against a bunch of watered down competition. They were - their fault or not.

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    Re: 1975 Reds vs 1927 Yankees

    If you could use a time machine to get the 27 Yankees and 75 Reds to actually play I am sure the Reds would crush the Yankees (integrated or not). Basically you have better athletes from a much larger population. And along those same lines I am sure the 2020 Reds would crush the 1975 Reds.

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    Sprinkles are for winners dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: 1975 Reds vs 1927 Yankees

    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenix2 View Post
    If you could use a time machine to get the 27 Yankees and 75 Reds to actually play I am sure the Reds would crush the Yankees (integrated or not). Basically you have better athletes from a much larger population. And along those same lines I am sure the 2020 Reds would crush the 1975 Reds.
    Absolutely.

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    Re: 1975 Reds vs 1927 Yankees

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    I absolutely can and forever will judge the players pre, roughly 1960 when all teams were integrated to a decent amount, because they absolutely without question were playing against far lesser competition than their counterparts were after that. It's not about Ruth not having to hit 102 MPH. It's about Ruth, and all of the other dudes, not having to play against the best baseball players as a whole within the United States/Venezuela/Mexico/Puerto Rico/Dominican Republic. Ruth was playing, daily, against guys who in a non-segregated world, who would have never played Major League Baseball. They would have been playing minor league baseball. But instead, they were white, so they got to fill out rosters with spots that otherwise would have been given to players that were much better than they were. And that lasted until about 1960. I mean for crying out loud, the Cincinnati Reds didn't have their first African American player until Chuck Harmon in 1954 - a full SEVEN YEARS after Jackie Robinson made his debut. I'm not going to pretend that they weren't playing against a bunch of watered down competition. They were - their fault or not.


    It's probably not possible to accurately compare teams from different eras. Way too many variables between 1927 and 1975, 1975 and 2020, etc.
    "Lemonade requires a significant amount of sugar. Otherwise, you've just made lemon juice."

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    Re: 1975 Reds vs 1927 Yankees

    Why 1975 rather than 1976? 1976 Reds were better. Yes, they didn't win as many regular season games but that was because our National League competition was better. But the 1976 Reds had better pitching. And more importantly, the 1976 Reds swept the post season. The 1975 team took a long time to find the great eight while it was now in place to start the 1976 season. Also, if the 1927 Yankees had to, they could not find a better DH than Dan Dreissen was in the 1976 World Series.

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    Re: 1975 Reds vs 1927 Yankees

    Quote Originally Posted by foster15 View Post
    Why 1975 rather than 1976? 1976 Reds were better. Yes, they didn't win as many regular season games but that was because our National League competition was better. But the 1976 Reds had better pitching. And more importantly, the 1976 Reds swept the post season. The 1975 team took a long time to find the great eight while it was now in place to start the 1976 season. Also, if the 1927 Yankees had to, they could not find a better DH than Dan Dreissen was in the 1976 World Series.
    I agree. I think the 76 Reds coasted a little more through the season (yes coasted to 102 wins) and then went 7-0 in the postseason. The 76 Reds actually led all offensive statistical categories in the league. Complete dominance. But when people look up the teams they see that the 75 team won 108 games and just assume it was better.

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    Sprinkles are for winners dougdirt's Avatar
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    Re: 1975 Reds vs 1927 Yankees

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Sheed View Post
    It's probably not possible to accurately compare teams from different eras. Way too many variables between 1927 and 1975, 1975 and 2020, etc.
    The players today are way better than the ones in 1975, who are way better than the players in 1927. Those are just plain facts.

    I have no problem with comparing players from their era to players from their own era.... once we get to full on integration. But OPS+/ERA+ pre-1960 isn't the same as it is post 1960 because the competition levels were simply watered down due to racism. A 150 OPS+ against only white guys in 1927 is not nearly as impressive as a 150 OPS+ in 1965 or 1995 or 2019 when the league wasn't watered down due to racism.

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    Re: 1975 Reds vs 1927 Yankees

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    One team played watered down competition because it only allowed white dudes to play. That also means that they weren't nearly as good as a team as they could have been. 1975 Reds in a landslide.
    Your logic fails here. If you use logic it could also be said that the Yankees were watered down also because they only had white players.

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    Re: 1975 Reds vs 1927 Yankees

    Quote Originally Posted by TNRED View Post
    Your logic fails here. If you use logic it could also be said that the Yankees were watered down also because they only had white players.
    Uh, that team was definitely watered down because they were all white guys. There's no logical failure happening here on my part. Perhaps there was on yours by assuming I somehow didn't imply such a thought when speaking about that team. Or in my subsequent posts within this thread talking about all pre-1960's baseball being watered down because of racism.

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    Re: 1975 Reds vs 1927 Yankees

    It’s kind of like the reverse of expansion. Instead of an influx of marginal players, there was an influx of elite players and an outflux of marginals.

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    Re: 1975 Reds vs 1927 Yankees

    Quote Originally Posted by dougdirt View Post
    Uh, that team was definitely watered down because they were all white guys. There's no logical failure happening here on my part. Perhaps there was on yours by assuming I somehow didn't imply such a thought when speaking about that team. Or in my subsequent posts within this thread talking about all pre-1960's baseball being watered down because of racism.
    30 MLB teams today. Pretty watered down.

    I think it's strange that your sole focus is on one aspect of the watering down of baseball, albeit a major one, I'll give you that.

    I'm guessing that you've probably been patted on the back for your take here more than once, so now it's gospel to you. Which is fine.

    But it doesn't change the fact that you are putting all of your "watering down" eggs in one basket, when it's quite easy to provide a laundry list of aspects that have both improved the game product and made it worse too, over the entire history of baseball.

    Segregation was huge.
    So was steroids.
    So is cheating.
    So was the deadball era.
    So were amphetamines.
    So is technology.
    Improved nutrition.
    Globalization.

    Etc etc etc
    "Lemonade requires a significant amount of sugar. Otherwise, you've just made lemon juice."

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