redsmetz (05-09-2020)
Same With Carbo. I realize he had drug issues but how bad was it that St Louis and Boston were still able to get some good years from him. Trading Joe Hague was not the way to go. But Sparky could not deal with flakes unless they were superstars. Ross Grimsley and his hair. I know they thought their pitching was still good enough in 1973-74 that they did not need him but they counted on Roger Nelson and Gary Nolan to come back from arm problems to perform both those years. I understand getting Merv Rettenmund that season since they did not trust Griffey yet. It was Merv. Foster and Griffey going into 1974 after they traded Tolan. Merv was a good bench player. But Ross would have really helped that year if you also still had Bernie.
Small deals are sometimes the worst or keys to success or failure.
He put up with Pedro Borbon though so at least he had some patience with his temperament which could be up and down.
redsmetz (05-09-2020)
Keeping on line with players you did not know played here but delving into why I think it factored in 1988 season.
The Reds got rid of some good bullpen help without little return. Jay Howell. Jeff Lahti. Jeff Montgomery.
Bringing in 1988. Dennis Rasmussen. Another player who people would forget played here. Came over for Gullickson due to pending FA issues. Pitched well at end of 1987. Was bad in 1988 at 2-7 with 5 plus ERA. Goes to San Diego. Turns into Steve Carlton at 14-4. 2.55 era. 6 CG. The Reds do not replace him with anyone close to that as a not ready Hack Armstrong and a less bad but not ready Norm Charlton try to take up the slack.
Rasmussen claimed in the San Diego papers that they figured out within a week what his issues were and that the coaching issue in Cincy was a problem. Soto gets released around the same time or thereafter and while he is done, the Dodgers sign him just in case. They talk about his issues on the air after the signing and Ross Porter basically talked about things going on in the clubhouse that Soto said he could not elaborate on. When you follow your team on a day to day basis when all you have going on is college. Part time work and baseball seasons you remember stuff like this like an elephant.
Now I don’t think it was the gambling issues that they were getting at. The Reds after those 1985-86 seasons were the favorites in 1987 to bust out especially after how great they played after June 1st in 86. They barely played 500 that year for about half the year. They had a good mix of vet and young players and until SF pulled the trigger on their big trades with the Pirates they were the better team.
1988 was the same thing. Even when they traded Parker who was slowing down and a still who knows what you’re getting Rijo coming back. The Reds still had Davis coming off his great year. Daniels and Paul O. Especially Kal was looked at as a big young cog of the offense. The pitching was improved with Danny Jackson and even exceeded expectations.
If you look at the Dodgers and the Reds including ball park factors. The Reds pitching was very solid. Jackson and Orel was almost a draw but I can give Orel a slight upper hand. Browning was great that year. Bullpen was very good.
The Offense underperformed but offenses were down in 1988 and the Dodgers offense was barely average. Gibson was not great that year. He brought attitude and the old blood and guts attitude but it was not better.
The difference was not getting Rasmussen to pitch better then not getting anything to replace him while Discovering Rijo as a starter after dumping Soto. So instead of having 4 good to great starters. They had 3 and blah. Armstrong. The Creature. Charlton. They also lost out on not having to use Tim Birstas in the bullpen by trading Jeff Montgomery for Van Snider.
Jeff was pitching in KC and would have made the bullpen even better with Franco. Murphy. Williams. Dibble.
At least Snider made up for it with the Morris trade.
camisadelgolf (05-08-2020),redsmetz (05-09-2020)
good analysis, they also lost Bill Dawley, Bill Caudill both good relievers for nothing at least they got you and your two grandslams off sadecki
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Tony Cloninger (05-08-2020)
marcshoe (05-09-2020)
Apropos to this conversation is this article from The Athletic. I haven't renewed, so I may have to, but it's built on this premise:
https://theathletic.com/1516315/2020...mlb-franchise/
“In the same way that a baseball season never really begins, it never really ends either.” - Lonnie Wheeler, "Bleachers, A Summer in Wrigley Field"
The Baseball Emporium - Books & Things.
The Baseball Bookstore
http://tsc-sales.com/
http://tscsales.blogspot.com/
http://silverscreenbooks.com/
Tony Cloninger (05-09-2020)
I just remembered that Matt Mangini was a Red for for a couple months in 2013. He got cut toward the end of spring training and retired soon after.
Oh, yeah. And that reminds me of someone else who went to Oklahoma State, Jon Adkins. He played a season in Korea sandwiched between two brief stints with the Reds organization.
And I'm not sure, but I think Jon Adkins' teammate at Oklahoma State was former All-Star Rookie of the Year Scott Williamson.
Last edited by camisadelgolf; 05-20-2020 at 05:32 PM.
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Strikeouts are boring - besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls. More democratic. ~Bull Durham
also gave away jay howell for mike o oberry
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