COVID-19, Part 3, the re-opening phase

[BernieCarbo]

They are not defying orders if there is no order to wear masks.

And it is the ultimate in pendantry to think I meant every single person in every household from one end of the state to the other. If you want to come here and see for yourself that the public has been compliant, then be my guest. And it's going to be people like you that are going to make more people say "f it", because no matter what they do it won't be enough. If masks mean that much to you, call the governor and convince him otherwise.

[jimbo]

People made it clear they were going to defy it, he changed it because of public pushback.

The CDC does recommend masks for everyone who in public.

When all this was starting we had people like Fauci and the Surgeon General telling us masks were useless and maybe even increases chances for infection, don't waste your money they told us. Weeks later they were completely changing their tune. One study tells us they are 90% effective and yet another telling us they're as little as 2% effective.

I would have no problem wearing a mask if there wasn't such a wide spread "expert" of opinions on them. I've been told by multiple doctors that the only mask that is effective is the n95. The majority of these masks serve only one purpose, they give people a sense of security, albeit a false one, so they can feel better.

So much of the information and numbers given to us by our government leaders have been so way off, I question all of it.

[Sea Ray]

I don’t think anyone is saying he did anything wrong in a legal sense, but what he did was reckless and dumb.

During a snowstorm, you shouldn’t drive the same way you drive when it’s clear outside. It’s still legal, but it’s reckless.

During a pandemic, you don’t go bar hopping, like you would normally. It’s legal, bit it’s reckless.

The advice my doctor gave me was to use common sense. If everyone used common sense, there would be very little spread. Unfortunately, common sense isn’t as common as it should be.

I wasn't even talking about a legal sense. I disagree that it's reckless to go to more than one bar. Wash your hands. Keep 6 ft away. Don't cough on anyone.

[Boston Red]

Who knows what the right and wrong stance is, but in general I find the negativity/pessimism on this board/thread unusual compared to my other interactions (other boards, people I work with, neighbors, friends, family, etc). I guess one's view of this pandemic is really colored by the media one consumes and the people they hang around. I come here for my dose of reality when I'm feeling too hopeful.

[Sea Ray]

When all this was starting we had people like Fauci and the Surgeon General telling us masks were useless and maybe even increases chances for infection, don't waste your money they told us. Weeks later they were completely changing their tune. One study tells us they are 90% effective and yet another telling us they're as little as 2% effective.

I would have no problem wearing a mask if there wasn't such a wide spread "expert" of opinions on them. I've been told by multiple doctors that the only mask that is effective is the n95. The majority of these masks serve only one purpose, they give people a sense of security, albeit a false one, so they can feel better.

So much of the information and numbers given to us by our government leaders have been so way off, I question all of it.

This is where I'm at. I take everything I hear from gov't under advisement but then I use my own judgment. A couple examples:

I have not done anything with my parents (who are in their 80s and in a retirement community) for two months. We offered to have them over for a nice Mothers Day dinner. My parents do not have any dementia. I felt it was fair to leave this call up to them. Given my field of work, I know a great deal about infection control. The end of the story is, they're coming over in a few hours.

In mid-April when this was really coming to a head, we defied Michigan's Gestapo-like orders and we "smuggled" my 90 yr old mother in law out of the state. I didn't want her in Wayne County for another day and she was terribly lonely. She also still has her facilities and we let her ultimately decide. We kept her for 3 weeks, had a wonderful time and now she's back home safely. Back home she's also defying orders. She's getting carryout from a nice steak place tonight (at our expense) and she's having another single lady friend over for dinner. She'll not hug or kiss anyone but she's not going to spend her remaining days on this earth quarantined.

[Sea Ray]

Who knows what the right and wrong stance is, but in general I find the negativity/pessimism on this board/thread unusual compared to my other interactions (other boards, people I work with, neighbors, friends, family, etc). I guess one's view of this pandemic is really colored by the media one consumes and the people they hang around. I come here for my dose of reality when I'm feeling too hopeful.

That has also been my experience. This board is rarely a typical slice of America.

[SteelSD]

They are not defying orders if there is no order to wear masks.

And it is the ultimate in pendantry to think I meant every single person in every household from one end of the state to the other. If you want to come here and see for yourself that the public has been compliant, then be my guest. And it's going to be people like you that are going to make more people say "f it", because no matter what they do it won't be enough. If masks mean that much to you, call the governor and convince him otherwise.

Bernie, you do realize that when he rolled back the mask order, Dewine stated, “People were not going to accept the government telling them what to do.”

https://time.com/5831435/ohio-mask-order-reversed/

I think it's pretty hard for you to argue that a highly effective rate of voluntary compliance exists and/or should be expected when the order itself was rescinded, in no uncertain terms, due to the expectation that folks would be non-compliant.

[757690]

When all this was starting we had people like Fauci and the Surgeon General telling us masks were useless and maybe even increases chances for infection, don't waste your money they told us. Weeks later they were completely changing their tune. One study tells us they are 90% effective and yet another telling us they're as little as 2% effective.

I would have no problem wearing a mask if there wasn't such a wide spread "expert" of opinions on them. I've been told by multiple doctors that the only mask that is effective is the n95. The majority of these masks serve only one purpose, they give people a sense of security, albeit a false one, so they can feel better.

So much of the information and numbers given to us by our government leaders have been so way off, I question all of it.

I agree it’s confusing, and there hasn’t been clear direction from authorities.

The reason to wear a mask is not to protect yourself, but to protect others. This chart helps explain the logic.

Attachment 16048

[BernieCarbo]

Bernie, you do realize that when he rolled back the mask order, Dewine stated, “People were not going to accept the government telling them what to do.”

https://time.com/5831435/ohio-mask-order-reversed/

I think it's pretty hard for you to argue that a highly effective rate of voluntary compliance exists and/or should be expected when the order itself was rescinded, in no uncertain terms, due to the expectation that folks would be non-compliant.

He didn't even try. He was proposing that customers in retail stores had to wear masks. People squawked, when all he really had to do was shut down the stores that had customers that wouldn't comply. At the end of the day though, people are complying with the rules we have . Obviously he didn't feel strongly enough about this one.

And also, the WHO doesn't recommend masks. The CDC does, but the CDC has been an utter failure during this whole thing right from the beginning with the tests they made that gave false results. They even admit that their handling of CV19 has been the darkest days of their organizations. I think I'll listen to the WHO.

[SteelSD]

He didn't even try. He was proposing that customers in retail stores had to wear masks. People squawked, when all he really had to do was shut down the stores that had customers that wouldn't comply. At the end of the day though, people are complying with the rules we have . Obviously he didn't feel strongly enough about this one.

It's pretty clear that based on what Dewine actually SAID, he understood that non-compliance would be a given for enough people to make the situation unmanageable. That must have been some pretty severe "squawking" to do an about face like that.

And also, the WHO doesn't recommend masks. The CDC does, but the CDC has been an utter failure during this whole thing right from the beginning with the tests they made that gave false results. They even admit that their handling of CV19 has been the darkest days of their organizations. I think I'll listen to the WHO.

A mask is not a mask is not a mask. The WHO officially has no position on non-medical masks for the "healthy" and is doing more research on it. If one is following a reasoned path, I'm not sure how one reaches a conclusion of not wearing any mask when the CDC recommends it and the WHO is, at worst, undecided but studying the potential impact of non-medical versions. What you're doing is rationalizing, not reasoning. There's a lot of that going on over the last few pages of this thread.

[BernieCarbo]

It's pretty clear that based on what Dewine actually SAID, he understood that non-compliance would be a given for enough people to make the situation unmanageable. That must have been some pretty severe "squawking" to do an about face like that.



A mask is not a mask is not a mask. The WHO officially has no position on non-medical masks for the "healthy" and is doing more research on it. If one is following a reasoned path, I'm not sure how one reaches a conclusion of not wearing any mask when the CDC recommends it and the WHO is, at worst, undecided but studying the potential impact of non-medical versions. What you're doing is rationalizing, not reasoning. There's a lot of that going on over the last few pages of this thread.

Part of the squawking is because people are fed up with the response. The self-employed couldn't file for unemployment for weeks, and the state just started processing them on May 6th and people will have to wait a few more weeks. The relief for business owners has been way too little and too late. He proposed May 1st as the beginning of opening up, but then people saw that the restrictions actually increased with the customer requirement to wear masks. He saw the reaction to all this (and it wasn't only about the masks), and suddenly there was a more aggressive plan to get things moving. I honestly think DeWine is a good guy, and as opposed to a lot of talking heads in politics, I think he actually relates to the pain that hundreds of thousands are feeling, and he acknowledged a choice: Start to open up a little more as the weather warms, or face a real meltdown of the populace over the next couple of months, which isn't healthy either. Like it or not, there is a real disparity in assistance, and some people are doing better than before and some are on the brink of losing everything. And then the people who are on the brink hear thing like "Oh, but money isn't more important than a life", which isn't exactly helpful to hear.

It's not a hill I'm going to die on, and I have and I'll continue to do whatever is required of me, but this is what WHO says: "There is no specific evidence to suggest that the wearing of masks by the mass population has any potential benefit. In fact, there's some evidence to suggest the opposite in the misuse of wearing a mask properly or fitting it properly". I don't pay attention to the CDC anymore, and they have a lot more to worry about anyway. I guess once they make tests available to everyone, we'll sort all this out.

edit: And I'm not blaming DeWine for the response- he has done what he can. He was blindsided by the feds as much as anyone.

[Boss-Hog]

We're over 1,000 posts, so please start a new thread.