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Thread: The Last Dance

  1. #16
    My clutch is broken RichRed's Avatar
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    Re: The Last Dance

    Quote Originally Posted by MWM View Post
    I've said to my friends multiple times that I wish this thing was a 20 part series. It's been fantastic. I was a junior in high school when they won their first championship, so I watched pretty much any time Jordan was on from the late 80s until he retired.

    For me, the pinnacle of watching sports in my lifetime was Jordan in the 90s. The next closest thing would be Tiger in his prime, and then Federer from 2004-07. But even those pale in comparison to watching MJ in his prime. This has been a very well-done series, but for me the nostalgia is what makes me so immersed. I think I could watch 20 hours of just highlights of Jordan in his career.

    I also like seeing the human side of MJ. He was so polished in his playing days that we didn't get to see a lot of what we're seeing now. I love hearing him say things like "to be honest, I was a little bitter they gave Charles the MVP that season and not me". I loved seeing him laugh at the idea that Gary Payton slowed him down. This definitely seems more like the real guy than the finely crafted brand we saw back then.
    I feel the same way. I could watch 100 hours of this stuff. I was 22 when they won their first championship, and even though I was never a Bulls fan (Bullets/Wizards, God help me), I watched Jordan every chance I could get. In my lifetime, there's never been another athlete on a team I wasn't a fan of that was such a must-watch every time. I guess Bo Jackson comes the closest.
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  3. #17
    Member adkindo's Avatar
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    Re: The Last Dance

    Quote Originally Posted by RichRed View Post
    It's like he defied the laws of physics. He would jump and then seemingly decide in mid-air if he needed to go higher. I could watch Jordan highlights for hours.
    when someone says "Jordan", the first image that I always think of is him going up with the right, and changing to the left in the air against the Lakers in his first Finals....that was the moment I finally accepted it was over....Showtime was basically over....it was Jordan's league now.


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  5. #18
    Posting in Dynarama M2's Avatar
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    Re: The Last Dance

    It's ultimately a sad story, at least to me. MJ went from being a superhuman joy to watch to the king of an increasingly dreary brand of basketball (his final contest with the Bulls was an 87-86 game). He started as a kid who wanted to be great and ended as a guy who was a mix of miserable and greedy. He played long enough to become the villain.
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  7. #19
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    Re: The Last Dance

    Quote Originally Posted by MWM View Post
    I've said to my friends multiple times that I wish this thing was a 20 part series. It's been fantastic. I was a junior in high school when they won their first championship, so I watched pretty much any time Jordan was on from the late 80s until he retired.

    For me, the pinnacle of watching sports in my lifetime was Jordan in the 90s. The next closest thing would be Tiger in his prime, and then Federer from 2004-07. But even those pale in comparison to watching MJ in his prime. This has been a very well-done series, but for me the nostalgia is what makes me so immersed. I think I could watch 20 hours of just highlights of Jordan in his career.

    I also like seeing the human side of MJ. He was so polished in his playing days that we didn't get to see a lot of what we're seeing now. I love hearing him say things like "to be honest, I was a little bitter they gave Charles the MVP that season and not me". I loved seeing him laugh at the idea that Gary Payton slowed him down. This definitely seems more like the real guy than the finely crafted brand we saw back then.
    For me, Jordans games were definitely up there but the Bird-Magic games were the best in basketball.

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  9. #20
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    Re: The Last Dance

    Quote Originally Posted by M2 View Post
    It's ultimately a sad story, at least to me. MJ went from being a superhuman joy to watch to the king of an increasingly dreary brand of basketball (his final contest with the Bulls was an 87-86 game). He started as a kid who wanted to be great and ended as a guy who was a mix of miserable and greedy. He played long enough to become the villain.
    I guess it depends on your perspective. I prefer good defense instead of no defense in today's game. And greedy? Not sure, but he deserves every penny he earned. Fortunately or unforunately, that's what made him a great basketball player, a great ambassador for the game, and how he became so successful in life.

  10. #21
    Kmac5 KoryMac5's Avatar
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    Re: The Last Dance

    Quote Originally Posted by M2 View Post
    It's ultimately a sad story, at least to me. MJ went from being a superhuman joy to watch to the king of an increasingly dreary brand of basketball (his final contest with the Bulls was an 87-86 game). He started as a kid who wanted to be great and ended as a guy who was a mix of miserable and greedy. He played long enough to become the villain.
    The failure of his comeback and his failure as a team owner have to be taken into account when discussing his overall legacy.
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  12. #22
    Posting in Dynarama M2's Avatar
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    Re: The Last Dance

    Quote Originally Posted by Todd Gack View Post
    I guess it depends on your perspective. I prefer good defense instead of no defense in today's game. And greedy? Not sure, but he deserves every penny he earned. Fortunately or unforunately, that's what made him a great basketball player, a great ambassador for the game, and how he became so successful in life.
    They play a ton of defense in today's game, but it's impossible to stop it when the other team can score from all over the court. We're back to ball movement, higher scoring games and skill dominating the league (like in the 80s when Jordan was electric) as opposed to the iso-heavy, low scoring, de facto wrestling match that the Jordan era bestowed upon us. He was great, but the game was dreary. That happened. It's right there in the game scores. Just watch episode two of this doc series for a comparison point for how far the game fell from that Celtics-Bulls playoff series in 1986. That was fire. The Bulls-Jazz matchups 11 and 12 years later is just brutally ugly basketball.

    As for the greedy part, I don't begrudge him (or any player in any sport) the money he's made. Yet he seems to care about little else. He's rich and miserable. Compare him to Shaq, who also makes insane amounts of money. Shaq seems to have general passion for life that's absent in Jordan.
    Last edited by M2; 05-13-2020 at 10:54 AM.
    I'm not a system player. I am a system.

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  14. #23
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    Re: The Last Dance

    Quote Originally Posted by Todd Gack View Post
    I guess it depends on your perspective. I prefer good defense instead of no defense in today's game. And greedy? Not sure, but he deserves every penny he earned. Fortunately or unforunately, that's what made him a great basketball player, a great ambassador for the game, and how he became so successful in life.
    It is so much harder to play defense in today's game because offenses are so much better. Players are more athletic, every player on the floor can shoot from the outside, and teams have to defend out to 30 feet from the hoop. Watching the clips in some of these games, it's hilarious to see how bad the spacing was. They often had 10 players within 18 feet of the hoops. The reason guys got killed going into the lane is that there were often 2-3 defenders in there. If a team clogged the lane with defenders now, they'd get run out of the gym with 3s.

    The NBA today is a lot more fun than it was in the 90s and 2000s. The offenses were so clunky, and the pace was terrible. In Jordan's final game, the 2 teams combined for 131 shots. In Game 5 of last year's finals, the 2 teams combined for 167 shots. There were obviously great players, but the overall skill set is higher now. It would have been awesome to see what Jordan could do in a more spread out, faster paced game like the one played today.

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  16. #24
    Member Redsfaithful's Avatar
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    Re: The Last Dance

    Quote Originally Posted by M2 View Post
    He's rich and miserable.
    He absolutely is. And it's not new, he was miserable then too.

    I actually think he might be a psychopath/sociopath? He definitely has tendencies that come out here and there during this miniseries, which is hilarious since he signed off on all of it.
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  17. #25
    Pre-tty, pre-tty good!! MWM's Avatar
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    Re: The Last Dance

    A lot of the Uber rich are miserable.
    Grape works as a soda. Sort of as a gum. I wonder why it doesn't work as a pie. Grape pie? There's no grape pie. - Larry David

  18. #26
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    Re: The Last Dance

    Quote Originally Posted by RiverRat13 View Post
    I think a lot people remember the '96-'98 Jordan where his game was more reliant on his fade-away jumper and forget just how explosive he was in his younger years.
    I was born in 1987, so my memories of Jordan are from his last 3 years, when he was still obviously incredible, but it's been cool to see clips from the earlier years when he was so explosive. The thing that's stood out to me is just how transformative he was for basketball. In his early years, he was so far ahead of most of the guys in the league from an athletic standpoint. The guys that were guarding him had no chance, and those guys would not be able to play in today's NBA. He forced the league to get more athletic to keep up with him. Then he was one of the first guys to take weight lifting seriously, and again the rest of the league had to catch up.

    I think there's a reasonable argument about whether Jordan or Lebron are the best players of all time, but the gap between Jordan and his competition was much wider than the gap between Lebron and his competition.

  19. #27
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    Re: The Last Dance

    Quote Originally Posted by KoryMac5 View Post
    The failure of his comeback and his failure as a team owner have to be taken into account when discussing his overall legacy.
    Failure? You mean when he came to a Washington team that had won 19 games the year before and put up 22/6/4 at the ages 38,39, and 40....while doubling the teams wins the first season he arrived? Who else in NBA history can claim that? Also, he is the most successful former player that is a primary owner of a team.....because he is in a group of 1. The very fact that as a former player he is the primary owner of a team is a massive success. I think those items only enhance his legacy.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by MWM View Post
    A lot of the Uber rich are miserable.
    a whole lot more uber poor are miserable....

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  21. #28
    Kentuckian At Heart WVRed's Avatar
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    Re: The Last Dance

    Quote Originally Posted by adkindo View Post
    Failure? You mean when he came to a Washington team that had won 19 games the year before and put up 22/6/4 at the ages 38,39, and 40....while doubling the teams wins the first season he arrived? Who else in NBA history can claim that? Also, he is the most successful former player that is a primary owner of a team.....because he is in a group of 1. The very fact that as a former player he is the primary owner of a team is a massive success. I think those items only enhance his legacy.

    - - - Updated - - -



    a whole lot more uber poor are miserable....
    The Bobcats/Hornets have been a laughingstock for the most part since coming back into the league.

    Jordan the player is the GOAT hands down. As a person and executive, not so much.
    Quote Originally Posted by savafan View Post
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  22. #29
    Member adkindo's Avatar
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    Re: The Last Dance

    Quote Originally Posted by WVRed View Post
    The Bobcats/Hornets have been a laughingstock for the most part since coming back into the league.

    Jordan the player is the GOAT hands down. As a person and executive, not so much.
    Not sure what you mean as a person.....the way he was towards teammates? Like he said, success has a price. He clearly made most of those guys better players, and probably better men in the long run. It was his team, and winning mattered above all else to him....if guys did not feel that way, they just needed to find another team....but they would not have the rings. When another former player is able to become the majority owner of a NBA team, then Jordan may be the 2nd best in a group of 2.

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  24. #30
    Posting in Dynarama M2's Avatar
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    Re: The Last Dance

    Quote Originally Posted by adkindo View Post
    Not sure what you mean as a person.....the way he was towards teammates? Like he said, success has a price. He clearly made most of those guys better players, and probably better men in the long run. It was his team, and winning mattered above all else to him....if guys did not feel that way, they just needed to find another team....but they would not have the rings. When another former player is able to become the majority owner of a NBA team, then Jordan may be the 2nd best in a group of 2.
    Is the price that you have to be like Mike? Bill Russell wasn't. Wayne Gretzky wasn't. Derek Jeter wasn't. Tom Brady wasn't. It seems that was the price of playing with Michael Jordan while he was winning. Greatest player ever, but if I could be along for the ride on any great team ever, I think the Bulls would be my last pick. They made winning look like no fun.

    I'm not a system player. I am a system.

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