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Thread: The Last Dance

  1. #31
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    Re: The Last Dance

    The series is really enjoyable, especially given the circumstances, but it's a pretty gentle examination of Jordan.

    Initially, I didn't realize he had some control in the production. And when he said people might not like him after viewing, I thought this might be a little more real and gritty. That was just advertising. It's pillowy soft. Even when he looks "bad," he's given the last word (frustrated teammates just weren't as competitive as him, the true champion). He's sad he has to stay in his hotel room while cashing gajillion dollar checks that put his face on every TV in the world. Fame's a *****. I could only imagine how isolating it is, and we're all in our own emotional prisons, but with a little context it ain't a bad life he was living.

    Plain and simple, he was a jerk. Let him wear it.


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  3. #32
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    Re: The Last Dance

    Quote Originally Posted by M2 View Post
    They play a ton of defense in today's game, but it's impossible to stop it when the other team can score from all over the court. We're back to ball movement, higher scoring games and skill dominating the league (like in the 80s when Jordan was electric) as opposed to the iso-heavy, low scoring, de facto wrestling match that the Jordan era bestowed upon us. He was great, but the game was dreary. That happened. It's right there in the game scores. Just watch episode two of this doc series for a comparison point for how far the game fell from that Celtics-Bulls playoff series in 1986. That was fire. The Bulls-Jazz matchups 11 and 12 years later is just brutally ugly basketball.

    As for the greedy part, I don't begrudge him (or any player in any sport) the money he's made. Yet he seems to care about little else. He's rich and miserable. Compare him to Shaq, who also makes insane amounts of money. Shaq seems to have general passion for life that's absent in Jordan.
    To each his own. I think today's NBAs brand of basketball sucks with guys just standing around the 3point line shooting 3's or layups. YAWN. Not to mention, it's refreshing to a player who doesn't want to in the spotlight every day of the week when he doesn't have to be.

    Steve Jobs was insufferable and he's made one of the best companies in the world. Greatness has a price. If that makes him insufferable, well the game and its fans were rewarded for it.

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  5. #33
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    Re: The Last Dance

    Quote Originally Posted by WVRed View Post
    The Bobcats/Hornets have been a laughingstock for the most part since coming back into the league.

    Jordan the player is the GOAT hands down. As a person and executive, not so much.
    He's a terrible owner. I have this theory that ex-players can be good execs/GMs/whatever but if they were TOO good as players it's almost like they are bringing in a liability. The game almost being too easy as a player might make it more difficult to build a team well. It's tunnel vision, where the way they had success is the only way.

    Like, I doubt Jordan ever truly understood other players, what makes them tick, why other players have success. He might get better though, if he actually cares (which is another issue for some of these guys, do they actually care as much about being an exec as they did playing.)
    Turning and turning in the widening gyre
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  6. #34
    Pre-tty, pre-tty good!! MWM's Avatar
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    Re: The Last Dance

    Quote Originally Posted by M2 View Post
    Bill Russell wasn't. Wayne Gretzky wasn't. Derek Jeter wasn't. Tom Brady
    Bill Russell, Wayne Gretsky, Tom Brady, Michael Jordan, and..... Derek Jeter?
    Grape works as a soda. Sort of as a gum. I wonder why it doesn't work as a pie. Grape pie? There's no grape pie. - Larry David

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  8. #35
    Rally Onion! Chip R's Avatar
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    Re: The Last Dance

    Could you imagine MJ being a coach?
    Quote Originally Posted by Raisor View Post
    I was wrong
    Quote Originally Posted by Raisor View Post
    Chip is right

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  10. #36
    Did we just become BFF's dubc47834's Avatar
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    Re: The Last Dance

    Quote Originally Posted by Redsfaithful View Post
    He absolutely is. And it's not new, he was miserable then too.

    I actually think he might be a psychopath/sociopath? He definitely has tendencies that come out here and there during this miniseries, which is hilarious since he signed off on all of it.
    I think the only reason he may have been miserable was the media. They were digging into his gambling happening, and then trying to say that his gambling got his father killed. I think both have been discredited as the years have gone by.
    I'm out...like a fat kid in dodgeball

  11. #37
    Posting in Dynarama M2's Avatar
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    Re: The Last Dance

    Quote Originally Posted by MWM View Post
    Bill Russell, Wayne Gretsky, Tom Brady, Michael Jordan, and..... Derek Jeter?
    Jeets won, constantly. It was his team even when he wasn't the best player (bWAR ranks him as the top Yankee in 1998, 1999 and 2009 - which seems more than coincidental). Point being, he was the clubhouse leader on the most successful baseball franchise in modern era without constantly riding his teammates.
    Friends don't let friends fWAR.

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  12. #38
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    Re: The Last Dance

    Quote Originally Posted by Todd Gack View Post
    To each his own. I think today's NBAs brand of basketball sucks with guys just standing around the 3point line shooting 3's or layups. YAWN.
    Yeah, I hate it when players are good at their sport. Who wants to watch a fast-paced game with shooting and scoring when you could watch the intricacy of team Greco-Roman wrestling?
    Friends don't let friends fWAR.

    Coddle thy pitchers.

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  14. #39
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    Re: The Last Dance

    Quote Originally Posted by dubc47834 View Post
    I think the only reason he may have been miserable was the media. They were digging into his gambling happening, and then trying to say that his gambling got his father killed. I think both have been discredited as the years have gone by.
    That's true, it all feels kind of quaint now. It's kind of weird to say given so many things are so much harsher in the media now, but I think there would be enormous pushback on a story like that today (and there should have been then.) Journalists would get dragged to hell on Twitter for some of those stupid columns.
    Turning and turning in the widening gyre
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  15. #40
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    Re: The Last Dance

    Quote Originally Posted by M2 View Post
    Jeets won, constantly. It was his team even when he wasn't the best player (bWAR ranks him as the top Yankee in 1998, 1999 and 2009 - which seems more than coincidental). Point being, he was the clubhouse leader on the most successful baseball franchise in modern era without constantly riding his teammates.
    Winning at basketball and baseball are two different things, not similar in the least. In basketball one player can make a championship team in baseball that is not how it works.

    As for Jordan, what you hate is what made him and his teammates champions. He was out there to kill you at all costs, and if his teammates couldn't help do this he would kill them too. This is the reason, he is the goat and it is not even close.

  16. #41
    Kentuckian At Heart WVRed's Avatar
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    Re: The Last Dance

    Quote Originally Posted by adkindo View Post
    Not sure what you mean as a person.....the way he was towards teammates? Like he said, success has a price. He clearly made most of those guys better players, and probably better men in the long run. It was his team, and winning mattered above all else to him....if guys did not feel that way, they just needed to find another team....but they would not have the rings. When another former player is able to become the majority owner of a NBA team, then Jordan may be the 2nd best in a group of 2.
    I think the documentary has explained it pretty well. Referring to both teammates and Harvey Gantt. Jordan was only concerned about winning and money.
    Quote Originally Posted by savafan View Post
    I've read books about sparkling vampires who walk around in the daylight that were written better than a John Fay article.

  17. #42
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    Re: The Last Dance

    Quote Originally Posted by WVRed View Post
    I think the documentary has explained it pretty well. Referring to both teammates and Harvey Gantt. Jordan was only concerned about winning and money.
    Yet those same teammates mostly all still revere him. The Harvey Gantt thing or "republicans buy shoes too" is one of the most disingenuous marks the media has tried to place on anyone that I can recall. The truth is the media did not like it because it did not agree with their thoughts or agenda. The dude was a business man....gave a contribution to the candidate that he supported, but did not want to get publicly involved in politics because it may ostracize some fans of his product. At the time, very few high profile athletes got involved in politics or cultural issues. Hell it is 30 years later, and the sports media go on the record defending Lebron James, Steve Kerr and others when they play stupid on issues relating to China while championing them giving an opinion on everything else....because it fits their narrative. They call these guys brave and Jordan a coward absolutely disregarding the very different landscape and issues that the players are speaking out on. If you think Lebron James has spoke out on a single issue that his advisors have told him would significantly diminish his revenue from product sales, I have some oceanfront property in Kansas to sell you. How many times has an NFL or MLB player took a mild position that did not fit the media's preferred narrative, and they are hammered. It is just absolute disingenuous and hypocrisy to suggest that because Jordan did not provide his time and likeness to a political campaign in a state that he no longer even resided in is somehow a black mark on his resume.

  18. #43
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    Re: The Last Dance

    lol his own mother asked him to do something and he said no

    And, just to be clear, this wasn't just politics, it was a race in the state where he's from involving literally probably the most racist senator of the last century.
    Turning and turning in the widening gyre
    The falcon cannot hear the falconer;

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  20. #44
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    Re: The Last Dance

    Quote Originally Posted by M2 View Post
    Is the price that you have to be like Mike? Bill Russell wasn't. Wayne Gretzky wasn't. Derek Jeter wasn't. Tom Brady wasn't. It seems that was the price of playing with Michael Jordan while he was winning. Greatest player ever, but if I could be along for the ride on any great team ever, I think the Bulls would be my last pick. They made winning look like no fun.

    Bill Russell? He played in a league with 8-10 teams in which his team often had 4 of the best 6 players in the league. Jeter was surrounded by an elite team his entire career. Neither of those guys had the responsibility for winning and losing as Jordan. I can't speak on Gretzky because I know very little about the sport when he played....and I would suggest that you take another look at Tom Brady....he definitely had some similarities to Jordan....maybe not to the same level because he was helped by the coach, but as Gronk how fun it was to play with Brady early in his career....even Randy Moss has spoke about Brady just being relentless in tearing into teammates when he did not think they were doing what was needed to win at the highest level. The guy would not even throw to guys if he did not approve of them or doubted them.

    The Bulls were a very talented team, but the gap in team talent was never extreme during Jordan's career. The difference always was Jordan. Teams need different dynamics and roles, especially when the talent gap is limited. Consider the great Celtics teams with Russell.....you think Red Auerbach was a teddy bear? Phil Jackson had a different style, and it required a Jordan/Kobe to work....just as it required a Pippen/Shaq/Gasol (good cop) to work.
    Last edited by adkindo; 05-14-2020 at 02:57 PM.

  21. #45
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    Re: The Last Dance

    Quote Originally Posted by Redsfaithful View Post
    lol his own mother asked him to do something and he said no

    And, just to be clear, this wasn't just politics, it was a race in the state where he's from involving literally probably the most racist senator of the last century.
    So you are going to be there supporting athletes that come out and support the 2nd Amendment? You are going to defend an athlete that writes an op-ed about why they are against abortion? If Jordan's mother asked him to come out and support these items, and he said no....you would have an issue with it?


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